Player Discussion Max Domi - RFA

[mynamejeff420]

My comment was based on Danault not Domi. Yes I agree Domi is a 2C

Oh whoops.

But calling Danault a 3C is pretty ridiculous too imo. He's averaged ~40 points per 82 games over the last 2 years despite getting next to no PP time (so no PP points). That means essentially he's good for at least ~40 even strength points a season (recent years has him pushing 50 though).

Now that may not seem like a lot, but consider this: over the last 5 years only 5 players have managed to top 60 5v5 points in a season: Connor McDavid (x3), Nikita Kucherov, Patrick Kane, Sidney Crosby, and John Tavares. Lower the threshold to 50 5v5 points and the list is still only 18 players long. Point being, it's hard to put up gaudy point totals when almost all your scoring is coming at 5v5.

Over the past 2 seasons, Danault is 29th among all players in 5v5 points. Now sure you can point to him playing with the best wingers on the team, but that's true for every teams top centre. The best players tend to play with other good players. If playing with Gallagher and Tatar invalidates Danault's 5v5 points, then the same standard must be applied to players like Ryan O'Reilly, Mathew Barzal, Evgeny Kuznetsov, Sebastian Aho, Claude Giroux, Kyle Connor, Pierre-Luc Dubois, Matt Duchene, Sean Monahan, Blake Wheeler, or Mikko Rantanen (I can keep going but I'll stop here), all of whom have fewer 5v5 points than Phillip Danault over the last 2 years.

If Danault can produce like some of the games best offensive players while also playing excellent defense, how does that make him a 3C? Unless guys like Aho or Kuznetsov are also 3Cs, then sure, Danault is a 3C (but that would mean that practically every centre in the game is a 3C).

Danault's point totals are low because he doesn't get PP time. If you actually consider the context of his point totals, instead of just looking at his raw totals, you'll see that he is a very competent offensive player.

 

[McGees]

Oh whoops.

But calling Danault a 3C is pretty ridiculous too imo. He's averaged ~40 points per 82 games over the last 2 years despite getting next to no PP time (so no PP points). That means essentially he's good for at least ~40 even strength points a season (recent years has him pushing 50 though).

Now that may not seem like a lot, but consider this: over the last 5 years only 5 players have managed to top 60 5v5 points in a season: Connor McDavid (x3), Nikita Kucherov, Patrick Kane, Sidney Crosby, and John Tavares. Lower the threshold to 50 5v5 points and the list is still only 18 players long. Point being, it's hard to put up gaudy point totals when almost all your scoring is coming at 5v5.

Over the past 2 seasons, Danault is 29th among all players in 5v5 points. Now sure you can point to him playing with the best wingers on the team, but that's true for every teams top centre. The best players tend to play with other good players. If playing with Gallagher and Tatar invalidates Danault's 5v5 points, then the same standard must be applied to players like Ryan O'Reilly, Mathew Barzal, Evgeny Kuznetsov, Sebastian Aho, Claude Giroux, Kyle Connor, Pierre-Luc Dubois, Matt Duchene, Sean Monahan, Blake Wheeler, or Mikko Rantanen (I can keep going but I'll stop here), all of whom have fewer 5v5 points than Phillip Danault over the last 2 years.

If Danault can produce like some of the games best offensive players while also playing excellent defense, how does that make him a 3C? Unless guys like Aho or Kuznetsov are also 3Cs, then sure, Danault is a 3C (but that would mean that practically every centre in the game is a 3C).

Danault's point totals are low because he doesn't get PP time. If you actually consider the context of his point totals, instead of just looking at his raw totals, you'll see that he is a very competent offensive player.

Danault is an elite 3C or a avg to below avg 2C. Take away our 2 top wingers and he is a 30 point centre. He’s great at grinding and digging out pucks but he is an average passer with average vision and not much finish. Do you pay Hyman top line $ cause he plays with Matthews?Mete or Chiarot top pair $ cause he plays with Weber?
He filled a role admirably but well above his weight class. I like him. I want to keep him but unless he is ready to make room for our future Young centres who NEED to play with better wingers, and willing to accept 4-5 mil per TOPS!! Then buh bye.
We will never win with him as a 1C. We could if he’s our 3C but he wants more ice time, money and our best wingers so not gonna happen.

 

[ahmedou]

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Oh whoops.

But calling Danault a 3C is pretty ridiculous too imo. He's averaged ~40 points per 82 games over the last 2 years despite getting next to no PP time (so no PP points). That means essentially he's good for at least ~40 even strength points a season (recent years has him pushing 50 though).

Now that may not seem like a lot, but consider this: over the last 5 years only 5 players have managed to top 60 5v5 points in a season: Connor McDavid (x3), Nikita Kucherov, Patrick Kane, Sidney Crosby, and John Tavares. Lower the threshold to 50 5v5 points and the list is still only 18 players long. Point being, it's hard to put up gaudy point totals when almost all your scoring is coming at 5v5.

Over the past 2 seasons, Danault is 29th among all players in 5v5 points. Now sure you can point to him playing with the best wingers on the team, but that's true for every teams top centre. The best players tend to play with other good players. If playing with Gallagher and Tatar invalidates Danault's 5v5 points, then the same standard must be applied to players like Ryan O'Reilly, Mathew Barzal, Evgeny Kuznetsov, Sebastian Aho, Claude Giroux, Kyle Connor, Pierre-Luc Dubois, Matt Duchene, Sean Monahan, Blake Wheeler, or Mikko Rantanen (I can keep going but I'll stop here), all of whom have fewer 5v5 points than Phillip Danault over the last 2 years.

If Danault can produce like some of the games best offensive players while also playing excellent defense, how does that make him a 3C? Unless guys like Aho or Kuznetsov are also 3Cs, then sure, Danault is a 3C (but that would mean that practically every centre in the game is a 3C).

Danault's point totals are low because he doesn't get PP time. If you actually consider the context of his point totals, instead of just looking at his raw totals, you'll see that he is a very competent offensive player.

Our problem is offensive.. scoring.

If you want a 40 pts top 6 center, that needs to play with the best wingers to hit that numbers... seriously how do you think this team will succeed? Look around the league. Look into the past. How many teams really had success with a 40 pts 2nd C?

We had Koivu-Plekanec, Plekanec-Gomez, Plekanec-DD, Plekanec-Galchenyuk... it was not good enough. Why do you think Danault as a 2nd C be good enough?

Do you want to win or you want argue that we have a 2nd C having stats good enough to call him 2nd C because he's in the top 60 in pts amongst center in the league?

If we have McDavid that can give you 120 pts a season, I wouldn't mind a Danault at 2nd... but we will never have that luxury.

It seems like the standard for a lot of people now is to be "good enough for" because stats shows that. Watch the games instead. Just the fact that you compare Danault with Kuznetsov and Aho really shows that you judge players with stats and not what they can ACTUALLY bring and do on the ice.

This is Desharnais situation all over again. People like you were arguing that DD was a 1st C after his 60pts season because that puts him in the top 30 Center in pts.

Btw, Lars Eller averages 40 pts in 82 games in the last 3 seasons. I bet Washington doesn't think of having him as a top 6 C going forward. Really shows you that averaging 40-50 pts, no matter if its ES, with or without PP, as a top 6 C is nothing to write home about. That's actually quite mediocre for a top 6 C.

 

[Habs Halifax]

What about the ROR trade when he was 25? The trade from the Avs to the Sabres. ROR heading into his age 25 season was traded for two NHL ready prospects (Zadorov and Grigorenko) who were both trending well as the 12th and 16th picks in 12/13 drafts and the 31st pick in the 2015 draft. Domi has better numbers than ROR as a 25 year old.

ROR (age 20-24): 0.58 pts/game
vs
Domi (age 20-24): 0.67 pts/game

This is the exact reason why we need to get the Domi trade right. Zadorov and Girgorenko were trending very well as NHL ready prospects and are nowhere near the value of ROR today. Not saying Domi turns into ROR from 25-30 years but these are prime years people!

Avs got 3 1st round values and only Zadorov to show for it. Nothing to brag about there.

 

[JimboJay]

What about the ROR trade when he was 25? The trade from the Avs to the Sabres. ROR heading into his age 25 season was traded for two NHL ready prospects (Zadorov and Grigorenko) who were both trending well as the 12th and 16th picks in 12/13 drafts and the 31st pick in the 2015 draft. Domi has better numbers than ROR as a 25 year old.

ROR (age 20-24): 0.58 pts/game
vs
Domi (age 20-24): 0.67 pts/game

This is the exact reason why we need to get the Domi trade right. Zadorov and Girgorenko were trending very well as NHL ready prospects and are nowhere near the value of ROR today. Not saying Domi turns into ROR from 25-30 years but these are prime years people!

Avs got 3 1st round values and only Zadorov to show for it. Nothing to brag about there.

Agree that we need to get the trade right (if we do indeed trade him, im not convinced MB is actually leaning that way) but with regards to the ROR comparison, ROR always brought a lot more than points. So while his numbers were lower than Domi's I would argue he was probably higher value than Domi is right now. Also, the Avs got more for him than just Zadorov & Grigs. I believe that Compher & a high pick went with him (and maybe someone else went the other way?)

Your point is absolutely valid though - its why I would include Caufield in a deal for Laine any day (some are balking) because with Laine you know what you have. I am really high on caufield, I think he will work out, but with prospects you never know until they've made the jump for at least a decent amount of time.

 

[mynamejeff420]

Danault is an elite 3C or a avg to below avg 2C. Take away our 2 top wingers and he is a 30 point centre. He’s great at grinding and digging out pucks but he is an average passer with average vision and not much finish. Do you pay Hyman top line $ cause he plays with Matthews?Mete or Chiarot top pair $ cause he plays with Weber?
He filled a role admirably but well above his weight class. I like him. I want to keep him but unless he is ready to make room for our future Young centres who NEED to play with better wingers, and willing to accept 4-5 mil per TOPS!! Then buh bye.
We will never win with him as a 1C. We could if he’s our 3C but he wants more ice time, money and our best wingers so not gonna happen.

I'm not saying "pay Danault like a 1C because that's where he plays". I'm not even suggesting MTL pays him like a top centre (he doesn't put up the point totals, with drive contract value, to make that kind of money, even if I think he's worth it). I'm just saying that he does put up top line results. Montreal isn't losing games because Danault is playing at 1C. They're losing games because of the players that play when he's on the bench. Last 2 seasons Danault has a higher GF% at 5v5 than guys like Aho, Stamkos, Rantanen, Dubois, and many others (he's 37th among forwards). If a player is helping the Habs get almost 60% of the goals scored when he's on the ice, he's doing well imo. Danault has an on-ice GF% of 57.84 over the past 2 seasons, despite heavy usage. If he's outscoring the opposition at better rates than other top players, then he isn't the problem.

 

[McGees]

I'm not saying "pay Danault like a 1C because that's where he plays". I'm not even suggesting MTL pays him like a top centre (he doesn't put up the point totals, with drive contract value, to make that kind of money, even if I think he's worth it). I'm just saying that he does put up top line results. Montreal isn't losing games because Danault is playing at 1C. They're losing games because of the players that play when he's on the bench. Last 2 seasons Danault has a higher GF% at 5v5 than guys like Aho, Stamkos, Rantanen, Dubois, and many others (he's 37th among forwards). If a player is helping the Habs get almost 60% of the goals scored when he's on the ice, he's doing well imo. Danault has an on-ice GF% of 57.84 over the past 2 seasons, despite heavy usage. If he's outscoring the opposition at better rates than other top players, then he isn't the problem.

if he accepts reasonable $ and ice time - sure.

 

[Runner77]

Yeah, that Domi trade is not necessarily going to happen. It's highly speculative. Isn't it always.

 

[bobholly39]

I know many of us are frustrated with Domi's play this season and especially in the playoffs - but I honestly understand the frustrations on his end too.

I think he was one of only 2 players in the whole NHL who was identified for being at-risk due to health reasons to come out and play in the play-ins. Despite that - he ended up showing up to plays for the Habs....and Habs rewards him by playing him on the 4th line. You have to think that pissed him off big time - as if, if they don't give him an actual decent role, maybe he shouldn't have bothered to come and play.

Domi was fantastic a year ago. I don't even see why he couldn't improve on 72 points, let alone repeat it. I don't think we played him right this season, but also he obviously had a bad year. I'm still fine with trading him - but I'd love to be able to get a good return for him (like we did for Pacioretty), vs selling too low.

Between Suzuki, KK and Domi - there's still a very high likelihood Domi ends up being the best center of the bunch career-wise. Don't think we should dismiss that too quickly.

 

[BJCOLLINS]

So if (a signed) Kapanen gets you #15 Overall, is Bergy working the phones, offering up a, RFA Domi +#16 for #6-#9 +/- as an introduction to talk?

I personally think signing Domi while we have control is the better move. I’m not trying to sound like his agent but last year he was an author playing hockey for the first half of the season? He then became an extremely vulnerable diabetic in our covid reality, right?

As a side note many players feed off the emotion of the game.....the fans, the excitement, the anticipation, the roar that is the pulse of the Bell Centre. Look at the NBA bubble, the Raptors & the Clippers lost game 7’s where they would have been the home teams.....

Unfortunately I don’t know the atmosphere within in the bubbles, however, I’ve been to the Montreal Forum & the Bell Centre in the playoffs and the excitement is palpable!
Cheers.

 

[puckie]

What about the ROR trade when he was 25? The trade from the Avs to the Sabres. ROR heading into his age 25 season was traded for two NHL ready prospects (Zadorov and Grigorenko) who were both trending well as the 12th and 16th picks in 12/13 drafts and the 31st pick in the 2015 draft. Domi has better numbers than ROR as a 25 year old.

ROR (age 20-24): 0.58 pts/game
vs
Domi (age 20-24): 0.67 pts/game

This is the exact reason why we need to get the Domi trade right. Zadorov and Girgorenko were trending very well as NHL ready prospects and are nowhere near the value of ROR today. Not saying Domi turns into ROR from 25-30 years but these are prime years people!

Avs got 3 1st round values and only Zadorov to show for it. Nothing to brag about there.

The biggest reason to move Domi is if Claude is still coach. He does not seem to be a Domi fan, Domi is not progressing under him, and it is talent wasted.

Yes, it is 50-50 responsibility if coach-player to work together and be successful, but Claude juggled Domi's line mates all season long and he had a lack of talent to play with. Even though he was highest point total year before, CJ moved him to 2nd PP. When Domi and Kovi started to click he moved them off the same line.

It just does not seem like a good match if CJ is going to be coach.

This is from NHL.com ... I d not see CJ as this type of coach but maybe I am wrong.

Craig Berube last year with the St. Louis Blues. Rick Bowness this season with the Dallas Stars. Do you see any similarity between these two coaches who have been hired midseason and yet they were able to lead their teams all the way to the Stanley Cup Final as interim coaches? -- @statslotta
Absolutely. They're each excellent communicators in their own way. Each is good at dealing with players in a direct, professional, respectful and clear manner. They have experience working one-on-one with players from their time as an assistant. And they each took over a team that was ready to win, albeit under different circumstances.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Craig Custance of The Athletic wrote an article talking about many names rumored to be on the trade block. He wrote about Max Domi. But in his paragraph on Max, he said he has an NHL source who told him there have been contract talks between Domi and the Habs.

Obviously, that doesn't mean he won't be traded.

 

[Saundies]

It's funny, two years ago when he was on a tear I thought "how is it possible this guy scored 9 goals the last two years?" and then after watching him I figured out why: the guy hates shooting the puck.

Now I like Domi as a guy. My in-laws got me his book for Christmas, and in it he talks about this being a problem his whole hockey career, looking for the pass too much. But last year and last playoffs was on another level. He was passing all alone slot chances and everything.

Not to mention he lost his edge last year too. When he got punched out in the preseason against the Panthers, he was never the same.

I don't know. Maybe he needs another change of scenery to finally figure it out? Or maybe the 70 points was an anomoly and all he is is a 45 pt player (which is fine, but I don't want to put him at C or pay him big money if he is.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It's funny, two years ago when he was on a tear I thought "how is it possible this guy scored 9 goals the last two years?" and then after watching him I figured out why: the guy hates shooting the puck.

Now I like Domi as a guy. My in-laws got me his book for Christmas, and in it he talks about this being a problem his whole hockey career, looking for the pass too much. But last year and last playoffs was on another level. He was passing all alone slot chances and everything.

Not to mention he lost his edge last year too. When he got punched out in the preseason against the Panthers, he was never the same.

I don't know. Maybe he needs another change of scenery to finally figure it out? Or maybe the 70 points was an anomoly and all he is is a 45 pt player (which is fine, but I don't want to put him at C or pay him big money if he is.

He addressed the goal scoring concern in the first season with the Habs. Now it's defensive commitment issues. I think he figures this out as he heads into prime years. Habs need to careful with trading him.. return needs to be good or I bet you he burns us. Especially if he gets to play with legit top 6 talent! I think he he is a bit upset that his center job got stolen by a kid younger than him which was the issue this past year... Julien bounced him all over the line-up. Both Domi and Julien to blame IMO.

One thing about Domi... Tell him he can't do something and piss him off? I think he comes out flying next year! With or without the Habs! He will be on a mission to prove the doubters wrong. All he needs is stable spot with talent

 

[Locks]

Craig Custance of The Athletic wrote an article talking about many names rumored to be on the trade block. He wrote about Max Domi. But in his paragraph on Max, he said he has an NHL source who told him there have been contract talks between Domi and the Habs.

Obviously, that doesn't mean he won't be traded.

This is absolutely normal. MB does not and should not rush a trade. He is not a UFA after this coming season so if they can agree on a deal for one year then the team that trades for him will have an opportunity to sign him long term later. It is possible that he starts the season in Mtl. However, if Danault is traded, then he is definitely starting the season in Mtl as one of the top three centres.
And contract talks is not an indication that he won't be traded.

 

[26Mats]

This is absolutely normal. MB does not and should not rush a trade. He is not a UFA after this coming season so if they can agree on a deal for one year then the team that trades for him will have an opportunity to sign him long term later. It is possible that he starts the season in Mtl. However, if Danault is traded, then he is definitely starting the season in Mtl as one of the top three centres.
And contract talks is not an indication that he won't be traded.

I'd still like to see Domi get a full season at center, with good wingers (no Byron, Lehkonen, or Armia).

But if we can get a good winger for him (like Ehlers), that would also be nice.

 

[26Mats]

What about the ROR trade when he was 25? The trade from the Avs to the Sabres. ROR heading into his age 25 season was traded for two NHL ready prospects (Zadorov and Grigorenko) who were both trending well as the 12th and 16th picks in 12/13 drafts and the 31st pick in the 2015 draft. Domi has better numbers than ROR as a 25 year old.

ROR (age 20-24): 0.58 pts/game
vs
Domi (age 20-24): 0.67 pts/game

This is the exact reason why we need to get the Domi trade right. Zadorov and Girgorenko were trending very well as NHL ready prospects and are nowhere near the value of ROR today. Not saying Domi turns into ROR from 25-30 years but these are prime years people!

Avs got 3 1st round values and only Zadorov to show for it. Nothing to brag about there.

If I recall correctly, Grigorenko wasn't trending well at the time. But Patrick Roy, his former coach, wanted him.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

So if (a signed) Kapanen gets you #15 Overall, is Bergy working the phones, offering up a, RFA Domi +#16 for #6-#9 +/- as an introduction to talk?

I personally think signing Domi while we have control is the better move. I’m not trying to sound like his agent but last year he was an author playing hockey for the first half of the season? He then became an extremely vulnerable diabetic in our covid reality, right?

As a side note many players feed off the emotion of the game.....the fans, the excitement, the anticipation, the roar that is the pulse of the Bell Centre. Look at the NBA bubble, the Raptors & the Clippers lost game 7’s where they would have been the home teams.....

Unfortunately I don’t know the atmosphere within in the bubbles, however, I’ve been to the Montreal Forum & the Bell Centre in the playoffs and the excitement is palpable!
Cheers.

I'm interested what you mean here because I'm trying to find tangible reasons/excuses for his bad play last year. If you could elaborate that would be great.

I've been back and forth on trading him. I think it's risky to keep him but I also think he can be a star. I'm intrigued on how he'd be used. It seems like he's better at C. A part of me is very intrigued to see what a centre line of Suzuki/KK/Domi could do. We'd need to spice up our wingers though to run 3 offensive lines.

If only we knew what the market for him would be. I'd think it would be pretty good. As much as I'd love to make him fit on this team I don't really know how to do that. If somehow the org is convinced he can play on the wing or that last year was just a blip. Maybe there was something undisclosed behind the scenes even during the regular season?

 

[Locks]

I'd still like to see Domi get a full season at center, with good wingers (no Byron, Lehkonen, or Armia).

But if we can get a good winger for him (like Ehlers), that would also be nice.

Yes, the second option is more realistic. He would be sure bet to be on his way out of town if the Danault situation did not pop up.
Ehlers is actually one of my preferred options - a talented and fast winger who would fit very well with the Habs style. And is said to be low maintenance too.

 

[26Mats]

Yes, the second option is more realistic. He would be sure bet to be on his way out of town if the Danault situation did not pop up.
Ehlers is actually one of my preferred options - a talented and fast winger who would fit very well with the Habs style. And is said to be low maintenance too.

The Jets are in cap hell. Maybe we could take back the last year of Perrault, Copp or Lowry's deal to make the Ehlers deal work.

Ehlers + Perrault is over 10 million in salary.

 

[FLHabs]

I might be late on this and it probably doesn't mean much, but Domi put back "MTL" in his bio. Maybe the negotiations are going better than expected. In a pure hockey context, I'd rather keep Danault and see what Bergy can get for Domi, but with the fact that he's RFA and Danalt UFA next year, I think Danault will be the one dealt

 

[Locks]

The Jets are in cap hell. Maybe we could take back the last year of Perrault, Copp or Lowry's deal to make the Ehlers deal work.

Ehlers + Perrault is over 10 million in salary.

Are they? I thought they have some cap space. But one thing I am certain is they have major holes in the lineup, particularly at C and D, and they intend to address them, that's why Laine/Ehlers become available.

 

[JianYang]

I wonder if anything can work with Chicago.

Domi and Shaw had terrific synergy with each other. I know it might be risky to hinge your bets on Shaw who has concussion issues, but if he can stay healthy, it could be one of those situations where Chicago gets a 1+1=3 situation.

 

[Runner77]

The Posting Ninja may have gotten to this already somewhere but am not seeing it in this thread: