What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

[Tuna99]

Dorion made the best of a bad situation and that what good GMs do. Karlsson still has some elite hockey ahead of him, which is what elite hockey players do

 

[Sweatred]

Dorion made the best of a bad situation and that what good GMs do. Karlsson still has some elite hockey ahead of him, which is what elite hockey players do

I wonder how many years of the 8 year extension SJ will say “We’re glad we paid him $11.5 this year”?

My current count is 0/1. He may not live you to his contract in any of those 8 years.

 

[Hinterland]

I wonder how many years of the 8 year extension SJ will say “We’re glad we paid him $11.5 this year”?

My current count is 0/1. He may not live you to his contract in any of those 8 years.

Not sure why you wrote "may" instead of "will". Do you think that his foot will somehow heal itself or does the Sharks aging group consist of Benjamin Button's? There's no chance that they're gonna like this deal for only a second.

They currently have only four true top6 forwards (Couture, Hertl, Kane and Meier). All of them except Meier are injury prone and Meier is also the only one with the potential to get better...the other three are likely on the decline already. The only prospects with star potential are defenders, not forwards. Both Merkley and Roy are RD's though...much like Burns and Karlsson. They also could bust since Merkley is undersized as well as having character issues while Roy's isn't making progress at all because he's always injured. Looking at the forward prospects, they have a few Russians or Russian born prospects (Letunov, Spiridinov, Chekhovich, Chmelevski, Kotkov, Yurtaykin)
are mostly long shots...if they get one top6 forward outta those then the Sharks should be very happy. Other than that they have a few potential middle six prospects but that's about it.
Maybe the covid19 break gives Martin Jones the time he needs to reinvent himself but if that doesn't happen then the Sharks also don't have a single capable NHL goalie in their entire organization. Aaron Dell got figured out and behind him there's nothing noteworthy.

Despite all that, without injuries, they're right up against the cap. Their worst contracts all protected with NMC's. Good luck trying to solve that Franchise. How Wilson still has his job is beyond me. He threw away his only elite forward prospect behind Timo Meier just to acquire yet another defensively fragile RD and with that he handed out yet another terrible long term contract to an injury prone player on the decline. I couldn't drink enough to ever come up with the idea. I'd get the deal coming from a different team but San Jose? Wilson has been great for years but it surely didn't take him long to ruin this franchise for a decade...much like Holland in Detroit. I don't get it.

 

[bert]

Hahahaha

 

[Hinterland]

I find it hilarious that posters are so sure EK is done.

Will be a great thread to revisit.

How are Karlsson or the Sharks gonna improve? I get it...they were unlucky with injuries (even though their top guys are mostly injury prone)...but they also have an empty prospect pool and them being in cap hell forced them to trade away many top vets. What's left is four top6 forwards and two defensively fragile offensive RD's. Behind that it's all average at best. Thornton is aging, Labanc will always be a one way forward, Vlasic is on the decline and has zero motivation left, the rest of the defense has hardly NHL experience or level. Since Goodrow isn't there anymore, Sorensen is the only useful two way forward left. And I haven't even talked about the Sharks awful goaltending.

Now...even if Karlsson's foot magically heals itself which of course is very likely to happen...how do you wanna solve this franchise?

There's nothing to revisit here because even if Karlsson has career years ahead of him, it's not gonna help the Sharks franchise. They lost the deal even ahead of the draft and Norris losing rookie status...and it's only gonna get better for the Sens.

 

[Hinterland]

It is lucky that we didn’t get a high end asset like Hertl because that likely would’ve meant the 1st was taken away. I’d much rather have that pick than Hertl

No luck at all. The Sharks were never gonna trade Hertl or any of their top players. Acquiring Karlsson was Wilson's stupid attempt at winning a cup.

 

[Hinterland]

The best thing is SJ not having protection on that first round pick. That was a huge error by Wilson. No matter how good your team is, you always want to have some sort of lotto protection on your first rounder these days. And Norris is turning into a better than expected asset. That is good on Dorion for having those old scouting eyes still working.

Nah. Wilson's mistakes were to sign Karlsson to that deal and to include his only noteworthy forward prospect into this deal. The protection on the pick wouldn't have helped them much because the Sharks are gonna suck for years. For how long can you protect a pick? Dorion apparently also pushed for no protection...

 

[bert]

No luck at all. The Sharks were never gonna trade Hertl or any of their top players. Acquiring Karlsson was Wilson's stupid attempt at winning a cup.

Yeah what an idiot getting to the conference finals and barely losing to the cup champs. Should have just finished bottom 2 three seasons in a row.

 

[bert]

For someone who is 26th all-time in games played for the Sens, those are actually amazing stats!

Traded him at 26 years old too! Pretty damn impressive. Imagine where he would be if they signed him for 8 years. Probably second to alfie in every offensive category. But yeah he is overrated as the Knights are on the brink of naming him captain.

 

[Hinterland]

It's hard to assign credit when we don't have a clear picture on what went into his decision making process.

Did the budget prevent him from re-signing Karlsson, or did Karlsson force the trade?

Did Dorion predict Karlsson's decline, or SJ's fall from contender to lottery pick?

Did he target the prospects we acquired or did SJ pressure for those to be the assets included over others?

The end result is the same rehardless of how we got there, it's working out pretty good. But I'll need to see a lot more before i would trust him to do it again, there have simply been to many mixed messages both in terms of actions and words to trust it's all the result of a calculated plan.

I don't know about the first question but the second one I'd answer with "for sure". Maybe not all the way down to having a good shot at a nr.1 pick but the Sharks were always gonna suck after losing this many vets and with only an thin, aging and injury prone corps left. Their roster also doesn't make any sense with two very similar star players playing the same position and zero stability in net.

Of course Dorion also targeted Norris. No way Wilson was dumb enough to just throw away his only top forward prospect. Of course Dorion pushed for Norris...which other SJ prospect would you want instead of Norris? He was the obvious choice...

 

[Hinterland]

Yeah what an idiot getting to the conference finals and barely losing to the cup champs. Should have just finished bottom 2 three seasons in a row.

I mentioned it in an earlier post...the mistake wasn't to acquire Karlsson...the mistake was to sign him (the Sharks wouldn't have fallen apart quite like that had they been able to keep their key vets) and to include Norris into the deal. Norris and Meier were Wilson's only young forwards with star potential. I get that it would have been difficult to strike this deal without Norris but those were the two things Wilson shouldn't have done.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I'm still at loss as to how it all worked out the way it actually did...

Like how in god's name was it San Jose of all teams (who already had term big long term dollars already committed to other players on the blueline) that stepped up and put the best offer on the table for EK65, who was still considered to be mega elite and a game breaker.....

Keep in mind, the Karlsson thing is ancient history by now, so I have a difficult time remember who exactly reported what. But, part of the reason why a Karlsson trade was so difficult was that teams weren't stepping up with big offers because of his injury issues. He was really bad for the first half of 2017-18, and there was lots of uncertainty about his foot. I think the Senators botched the trade deadline by making it so obvious they were ready to move in, and by trying to attach Ryan to Karlsson in a Vegas deal, so maybe that was part of it to. But according to insiders, teams were apprehensive because of the injuries, and nobody was offering a top prospect.

Doug Wilson has a reputation for going big game hunting, and most of San Jose's core was locked into big contracts that take them to their late 30's. So I think with San Jose, there was a lot less to lose by locking down Karlsson. Looking at things from a 2018-19 perspective, even if Karlsson would decline half way through his contract with San Jose, they probably already have enormous money locked up in Vlasic, Burns, Couture, and Kane, all of which might also be on a downswing by then. So it won't matter.

 

[Crosside]

Keep in mind, the Karlsson thing is ancient history by now, so I have a difficult time remember who exactly reported what. But, part of the reason why a Karlsson trade was so difficult was that teams weren't stepping up with big offers because of his injury issues. He was really bad for the first half of 2017-18, and there was lots of uncertainty about his foot. I think the Senators botched the trade deadline by making it so obvious they were ready to move in, and by trying to attach Ryan to Karlsson in a Vegas deal, so maybe that was part of it to. But according to insiders, teams were apprehensive because of the injuries, and nobody was offering a top prospect.

Doug Wilson has a reputation for going big game hunting, and most of San Jose's core was locked into big contracts that take them to their late 30's. So I think with San Jose, there was a lot less to lose by locking down Karlsson. Looking at things from a 2018-19 perspective, even if Karlsson would decline half way through his contract with San Jose, they probably already have enormous money locked up in Vlasic, Burns, Couture, and Kane, all of which might also be on a downswing by then. So it won't matter.

Not just that , he just want to sign whit Tampa

 

[Samsquanch]

Keep in mind, the Karlsson thing is ancient history by now, so I have a difficult time remember who exactly reported what. But, part of the reason why a Karlsson trade was so difficult was that teams weren't stepping up with big offers because of his injury issues. He was really bad for the first half of 2017-18, and there was lots of uncertainty about his foot. I think the Senators botched the trade deadline by making it so obvious they were ready to move in, and by trying to attach Ryan to Karlsson in a Vegas deal, so maybe that was part of it to. But according to insiders, teams were apprehensive because of the injuries, and nobody was offering a top prospect.

Doug Wilson has a reputation for going big game hunting, and most of San Jose's core was locked into big contracts that take them to their late 30's. So I think with San Jose, there was a lot less to lose by locking down Karlsson. Looking at things from a 2018-19 perspective, even if Karlsson would decline half way through his contract with San Jose, they probably already have enormous money locked up in Vlasic, Burns, Couture, and Kane, all of which might also be on a downswing by then. So it won't matter.

I get what your saying, but if the Sharks and Doug Wilson's plan is the equivalent to being heavily in debt and taking on another credit card and then maxing it out on a balance transfer just to keep things afloat for another few years...

There were ways that he could have avoided committing the sharks to 8 years of cap hell and relying on declining former stars.

 

[Micklebot]

I mentioned it in an earlier post...the mistake wasn't to acquire Karlsson...the mistake was to sign him (the Sharks wouldn't have fallen apart quite like that had they been able to keep their key vets) and to include Norris into the deal. Norris and Meier were Wilson's only young forwards with star potential. I get that it would have been difficult to strike this deal without Norris but those were the two things Wilson shouldn't have done.

SJ hadn't lost anyone when we made the trade. They lost guys the next offseason. Yes, contracts were coming up, and a cap crunch was inevitable, but there were a ton of variables, for example how much Karlssons contract would end up being.

Norris was included, maybe we wanted Lebanc though. Maybe we wanted Hertl and settled for Tierney with Norris. Maybe we wanted a Dman to replace our Dman.

You have your assumptions, but we don't know.

 

[BatherSeason]

I mentioned it in an earlier post...the mistake wasn't to acquire Karlsson...the mistake was to sign him (the Sharks wouldn't have fallen apart quite like that had they been able to keep their key vets)

Prioritizing resigning Karlsson over Joe Pavelski is not the reason for their decline. Blaming EK for the construction of the Sharks roster is quite the reach, especially when their goaltenders couldn't stop a beach ball. Doug Wilson's biggest problem was not improving his goaltending, not signing Erik Karlsson.

 

[Hinterland]

[QDP]

Even Karlsson at his best level needs a babysitter like Methot or Dillon to even have an impact instead of being a liability. SJ doesn't have any quality LD's left to play with Karlsson or Burns.

 

[Hinterland]

SJ hadn't lost anyone when we made the trade. They lost guys the next offseason. Yes, contracts were coming up, and a cap crunch was inevitable, but there were a ton of variables, for example how much Karlssons contract would end up being.

Norris was included, maybe we wanted Lebanc though. Maybe we wanted Hertl and settled for Tierney with Norris. Maybe we wanted a Dman to replace our Dman.

You have your assumptions, but we don't know.

Again, trading for Karlsson wasn't the mistake. Signing him was. That's why they had to let go so many of their vets and that's why they went from contender to laughing matter in essentially no time.

Nobody wants Labanc...there are lots of reports about SJ trying to trade Labanc...it never happened. For a good reason. Great skills but no hockey sense at all. Also, SJ wouldn't have traded three roster players for one...that wasn't gonna happen. If Labanc was included, it would have been for DeMelo. They also wouldn't have included a top6 forward in the Karlsson deal so Hertl, I'm 100% sure, was never even part of the conversations between the teams. Even if Dorion mentioned Hertl, Wilson would have hung up his phone immediately. Wilson was trying to land Karlsson to win cups, not to drift sidewards and improve his defense just to weaken his forward group.

 

[BatherSeason]

Nobody wants Labanc...there are lots of reports about SJ trying to trade Labanc...it never happened. For a good reason. Great skills but no hockey sense at all. Also, SJ wouldn't have traded three roster players for one...that wasn't gonna happen. If Labanc was included, it would have been for DeMelo. They also wouldn't have included a top6 forward in the Karlsson deal so Hertl, I'm 100% sure, was never even part of the conversations between the teams. Even if Dorion mentioned Hertl, Wilson would have hung up his phone immediately. Wilson was trying to land Karlsson to win cups, not to drift sidewards and improve his defense just to weaken his forward group.

If you are 100% sure, please provide the quote Doug Wilson gave you regarding the negotiations behind this trade.

 

[Hinterland]

Prioritizing resigning Karlsson over Joe Pavelski is not the reason for their decline. Blaming EK for the construction of the Sharks roster is quite the reach, especially when their goaltenders couldn't stop a beach ball. Doug Wilson's biggest problem was not improving his goaltending, not signing Erik Karlsson.

They lost way more than just Pavelski. They also reached the conference finals with the exact same goaltending just the season before.

 

[Hinterland]

If you are 100% sure, please provide the quote Doug Wilson gave you regarding the negotiations behind this trade.

Common sense, mate. Wilson was all in trying to win cups. Tomas Hertl is arguably the most important Sharks forward...certainly the most relied upon to play the toughest minutes and win faceoffs. Acquiring Karlsson for Hertl would have been moving sideways more so than actually improving the roster...especially with Burns already there. They 100% wouldn't have reached the conference finals without Tomas Hertl...who not only played the toughest minutes of the whole team but also scored 15 in 19 over that playoff run...that all while (as always) playing injured.

 

[Sensung]

There's nothing to revisit here because even if Karlsson has career years ahead of him, it's not gonna help the Sharks franchise.

This board has witnessed elite EK carrying mediocre rosters over his tenure in Ottawa on multiple occasions.

This stance is idiotic and has no basis in reality.

 

[Silencio]

This is all just my opinion yadda yadda, but trading for Karlsson has always struck me as a ploy to appease the Sharks fanbase by acquiring a big name player after Doug Wilson was left hanging by Tavares, chemistry and actual team needs be damned. Signing Karlsson was a no choice move by Wilson, as no matter what we think of the pieces Ottawa got that was a hell of a lot to give up for a one year rental....not to mention the fact that Karlsson (and/or his agent) played the Sharks organization perfectly with those "saying goodbye to the Bay Area" social media posts.

 

[Sensung]

[QDP]

Even Karlsson at his best level needs a babysitter like Methot or Dillon to even have an impact instead of being a liability. SJ doesn't have any quality LD's left to play with Karlsson or Burns.

Stating that EK was “made by Methot” or “needs a babysitter” is laughable.

This board has seen EK play at an elite level with multiple partners.

 

[BatherSeason]

Stating that EK was “made by Methot” or “needs a babysitter” is laughable.

This board has seen EK play at an elite level with multiple partners.

The "EK is a bad hockey player" argument is as lazy and overplayed as the "bad fan" argument. Just stop people.