What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Why though? Just for the sake of being difficult? For your own pride?

I get it if you had an unreasonable amount of love and emotional attachment to Karlsson, who is arguably the greatest player ever to wear the Sens jersey, and you just cant forgive Melnyk/Dorion for trading him. I can understand that I suppose, although cant agree with it.

But if thats not the case, and you really are a reasonable fan, then Im not sure why you want to take such a childish stance on the trade, despite how incredible its looking for us at the moment?

You don't trade away the best player to ever put on your jersey. Simple as that. There are only a few circumstances where it should reasonably happen....the player walks out on the team and refuses to play, he's in the twilight of his career and wants to chase a Cup, or some sort of major family event happens and he requests a trade to be closer to home.

A player like Erik only plays for your favorite team once in a lifetime. I haven't looked at Edmonton the same way since they sold Gretzky, and I have a hard time looking at Ottawa the same way after this trade. We use the term generational way too much on HF, but in terms of defensemen, I doubt we'll ever see another offensive blueliner like him play for the Sens in my lifetime. It's not about pure stats, or what goodies we can get for our stars....it's about having pride in your team and the continuity that THAT guy who comes along once in a blue moon is your player.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Dorion made the most of a real hard situation. He deserves full credit, he also got lucky on the Sharks being awful but you gotta be lucky to be good on and off the ice.

 

[Sweatred]

You don't trade away the best player to ever put on your jersey. Simple as that. There are only a few circumstances where it should reasonably happen....the player walks out on the team and refuses to play, he's in the twilight of his career and wants to chase a Cup, or some sort of major family event happens and he requests a trade to be closer to home.

A player like Erik only plays for your favorite team once in a lifetime. I haven't looked at Edmonton the same way since they sold Gretzky, and I have a hard time looking at Ottawa the same way after this trade. We use the term generational way too much on HF, but in terms of defensemen, I doubt we'll ever see another offensive blueliner like him play for the Sens in my lifetime. It's not about pure stats, or what goodies we can get for our stars....it's about having pride in your team and the continuity that THAT guy who comes along once in a blue moon is your player.

Extending EK at $11.5 x 8 plus what ever fresh food, beaches and low taxes are worth to EK would have crippled this org. Our best way out would have been LTIR/Insurance to kick in. Trading him may have “saved” this franchise.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

He did alright in the end , got lucky with the Sharks imploding. I think Demelo was better than expected. Norris I am sure surpassed expectations as well. I give him a 3/5 because of how things turned out .. I don't consider him a fortune teller or a genius that predicted how it ended up. He did it he gets credit.

He did brutal on the Zibanejad trade 1/5
He did brutal on the Stone trade and how he handled it 0/5
He did brutal on the Hoffman trade and how he handled it 0/5
He did brutal on the Duchene in trade 1/5
He did just ok on the Duchene out trade but cost was high in the end 3/5
He did well on the Dzingel trade 5/5
He did well on the Lazar trade 3/5

 

[DaveMatthew]

Extending EK at $11.5 x 8 plus what ever fresh food, beaches and low taxes are worth to EK would have crippled this org. Our best way out would have been LTIR/Insurance to kick in. Trading him may have “saved” this franchise.

That's a stretch.

Look, if this franchise is never prepared to spend to within ~5% of the cap limit, we are never going to be a consistent, legitimate contender for the Stanley Cup. It doesn't matter who we draft or how many prospects we acquire.

If we are prepared to spend to within ~5% of the cap limit in the next few years, than having Karlsson on the books would not have crippled us.

If the thinking is, "we'll never be a cap team", then the thinking also has to be, "we'll never be a winning team", and there's nothing to be saved.

 

[bert]

You really think any GM would have given up more than the Sharks did?

I will admit that Karlsson might not look quite as bad playing for a different franchise...but that guy would have lost his job by now.

Everybody knew about Karlsson's terrible injuries, about his defensive flaws and what kind of a contract he was looking for. I don't think it's more realistic to claim that the Sens could have gotten a better return than to claim that Dorion trying to sign him was just playing games with his fellow GM's.

I don't know about Dorion's intentions but he must have known that Karlsson wasn't gonna sign anyway and he also must have known that it didn't make sense to overpay for a rapidly declining player during a rebuild. If he did overpay for Karlsson at the time, Dorion would be looking like a grade a moron now and would be getting a lot of heat for it. That's for sure.

Its impossible to argue otherwise that he had more value when a team gets him for two playoff runs than one. The haul they got for him at the time of the deal was not nearly as attractive as it is now. Demelo was a UFA anyone could have had, Norris was coming off an average season and the Sharks were elite while adding Karlsson so the picks looked like they were going to be late. Obviously alot has changed in the sens favor since then. Which I am happy about.

The Sens made the contract offer... So he is only not a moron becaues Karlsson decided to not sign it? That logic doesnt hold up for me.

 

[Sweatred]

That's a stretch.

Look, if this franchise is never prepared to spend to within ~5% of the cap limit, we are never going to be a consistent, legitimate contender for the Stanley Cup. It doesn't matter who we draft or how many prospects we acquire.

If we are prepared to spend to within ~5% of the cap limit in the next few years, than having Karlsson on the books would not have crippled us.

If the thinking is, "we'll never be a cap team", then the thinking also has to be, "we'll never be a winning team", and there's nothing to be saved.

You are right about the “in the next few years” part. But EK would get $11.5+ for 4 more years after that hobbling in his ankle while we are trying to pay Byfield, Norris, Brown, Thomson or who ever emerges off their ELC. If we assume Ottawa is a sub $-10 million cap team that puts our roster $21 million behind with the lost money in EK.

 

[jhutter]

He did alright in the end , got lucky with the Sharks imploding. I think Demelo was better than expected. Norris I am sure surpassed expectations as well. I give him a 3/5 because of how things turned out .. I don't consider him a fortune teller or a genius that predicted how it ended up. He did it he gets credit.

He did brutal on the Zibanejad trade 1/5
He did brutal on the Stone trade and how he handled it 0/5
He did brutal on the Hoffman trade and how he handled it 0/5
He did brutal on the Duchene in trade 1/5
He did just ok on the Duchene out trade but cost was high in the end 3/5
He did well on the Dzingel trade 5/5
He did well on the Lazar trade 3/5

I agree with all, except for the Duchene in trade and the Lazar trade. When Duchene came in, most people were ecstatic. While the team had over performed the year prior, I don't think anyone foresaw a 30th place finish. Regarding the Lazar trade, he traded a player that will be out of the league in the next two years for the second leading rookie goal scorer and point getter in the AHL.

 

[DaveMatthew]

You are right about the “in the next few years” part. But EK would get $11.5+ for 4 more years after that hobbling in his ankle while we are trying to pay Byfield, Norris, Brown, Thomson or who ever emerges off their ELC. If we assume Ottawa is a sub $-10 million cap team that puts our roster $21 million behind with the lost money in EK.

And like I said, if we're a sub $-10 million dollar cap team, it doesn't matter all that much, because we won't be a contender.

So yeah it would've been more difficult with Karlsson, but even without his contract, it's not going to be easy paying Chabot + Tkachuk + Lafreniere/Byfield/Stuetzle + Norris + Batherson, etc, if we're not able to become a cap team.

I think it's actually more important to avoid the $4-5 million dollar deals for bottom 6 players than it is to avoid paying a star too much.

There's a realistic scenario in which paying Zaitsev + White a combined 9.25M could be close to as big a problem as having Karlsson at 11. It's difficult to say that Karlsson deal would have "crippled" the franchise but be okay with having those 2 contracts on the books, based on their play this year.

Disclaimer: With how the return is shaping up, in hindsight, I would have still made the Karlsson trade.

 

[Sweatred]

And like I said, if we're a sub $-10 million dollar cap team, it doesn't matter all that much, because we won't be a contender.

So yeah it would've been more difficult with Karlsson, but even without his contract, it's not going to be easy paying Chabot + Tkachuk + Lafreniere/Byfield/Stuetzle + Norris + Batherson, etc.

I think it's actually more important to avoid the $4-5 million dollar deals for bottom 6 players than it is to avoid paying a star too much.

There's a realistic scenario in which paying Zaitsev + White a combined 9.25M could be close to as big a problem as having Karlsson at 11...

Oh ... I completely agree with your last point ... White, Tierney Haisnsey, Z contracts quickly add up to star players x2. I’d prefer the elite talent and some ELC’s or picks of the dumpster pile (Ennis, Demelo types).

 

[Micklebot]

It's hard to assign credit when we don't have a clear picture on what went into his decision making process.

Did the budget prevent him from re-signing Karlsson, or did Karlsson force the trade?

Did Dorion predict Karlsson's decline, or SJ's fall from contender to lottery pick?

Did he target the prospects we acquired or did SJ pressure for those to be the assets included over others?

The end result is the same rehardless of how we got there, it's working out pretty good. But I'll need to see a lot more before i would trust him to do it again, there have simply been to many mixed messages both in terms of actions and words to trust it's all the result of a calculated plan.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Its impossible to argue otherwise that he had more value when a team gets him for two playoff runs than one. The haul they got for him at the time of the deal was not nearly as attractive as it is now. Demelo was a UFA anyone could have had, Norris was coming off an average season and the Sharks were elite while adding Karlsson so the picks looked like they were going to be late. Obviously alot has changed in the sens favor since then. Which I am happy about.

The Sens made the contract offer... So he is only not a moron becaues Karlsson decided to not sign it? That logic doesnt hold up for me.

I started reading/posting here in 2013, and I don't think I've ever seen a trade with as much consensus as the Karlsson trade. If you go back and read the threads, both here, on the main board, and on places like Reddit or where ever else hockey is discussed, it is incredibly rare to find someone who liked the return. There was a ton of negativity.

There is this one guy who posts here, I forget his username, it's something godfather, but he was in every thread telling people how this was the greatest return of all time, and they were wrong. Well....I guess he was on the right side of history!

The return was really mediocre at the time. It felt like a trade you send to a computer controlled GM in NHL games, where you include as many mediocre pieces as possible in order to get the trade bar filled up enough to get a star. After that, every piece other than Tierney saw its stock rise dramatically since being acquired. For us to win the trade, it basically required a near best case scenario for us, and a near worst case scenario for San Jose.

If the Senators win a cup with this core, and Karlsson never bounces back, the trade has potential to become one of the most infamous trades in NHL history. It could end up becoming the NHL version of the Herschal Walker trade. What makes the Karlsson trade even crazier is how (rightfully) negative it was perceived at the time, and how much of a 180 it has taken after only 2 seasons. I'm not saying I think we're going to win the cup, I'm saying IF.

As someone who loves chaos in the hockey world, because the story off the ice is often just as interesting as what happens on the ice, I think it's hilarious that Dorion will probably go down as a great all time GM because of this rebuild. I've never been as down on Dorion as a lot of people here, but he clearly has not been a very good GM, he is someone who was not prepared to be GM, learned on the job, and made a ton of mistakes. It's like the opposite of that cheesy Batman quote, you either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain. With Dorion, because he was never fired early enough to die a villain, the way this trade is shaking out, he will "die" a hero.

 

[Sensung]

The final tally of this trade is far from decided.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

The final tally of this trade is far from decided.

Yes, Karlsson could return to form, he is still young. With Karlsson, the issue is health, not a specific decline. Anybody who actually watches San Jose knows that when he was healthy in 18-19 and settled into their system, he played some of the best hockey of his career. The COVID-19 layoff and San Jose being out of the playoffs might help Karlsson in a way that the 2005 lockout helped Selanne. With that said, there's always been guys like Don Brennan (yeah I know, mountain of salt) who have stated they don't believe Karlsson takes the off season training seriously enough. In a way, maybe that's a positive, because it means there would be something tangible he could do to help prevent a decline. That is, training like Steven Stamkos and Martin St. Louis....

Whoever we get at #1-6 could bust, Norris/Balcers could end up as serviceable top 9 forwards, and it could turn out that Mads Sogaard was terrible in goal and we were just enamored with the fact that he could reach things on very high shelves without a step stool.

Once the draft lottery is done with, it could possibly make it easier to predict the trade. If we get Lafreniere, there's next to no chance we lose the trade. Odds are, we at least get a really good top 6 forward with an ELC/RFA years, and Norris probably projects to be a 2C. While on the other hand, the Sharks are in an up-hill battle to get value from the Karlsson contract because the COVID-19 pandemic has destroyed any possibility of the cap growing enough to accommodate the contract. Erik Karlsson would have to return to form and be completely over his injuries to justify the commitment San Jose made to him under a cap that will stay at 81.5 million for many years.

When that contract was signed, the expectation was that we were 2 or so years away from the cap exploding from a new US TV deal. Now we're in a completely different reality, and there is no guarantee that networks in the US will be in a position to offer that kind of TV deal. We're looking at a flat cap for many years. San Jose signed that contract expecting a completely different reality.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Hard question to answer. Major cop out but. It is what it is. That’s my answer. Chips fell really well but sometimes you have to be good to be lucky.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I agree with all, except for the Duchene in trade and the Lazar trade. When Duchene came in, most people were ecstatic. While the team had over performed the year prior, I don't think anyone foresaw a 30th place finish. Regarding the Lazar trade, he traded a player that will be out of the league in the next two years for the second leading rookie goal scorer and point getter in the AHL.

IMO this thread is about post trade evaluation. In hindsight we would have been much better off hanging on to Turris until the TDL and trying to get a 1st for him , or even to Nashville for what they gave Colorado, keeping our pick (Top 4 last year). The gamble , which is what it was , did not pay off in this case so he gets a poor grade. When they pay off he gets a good or better grade.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I agree with all, except for the Duchene in trade and the Lazar trade. When Duchene came in, most people were ecstatic. While the team had over performed the year prior, I don't think anyone foresaw a 30th place finish. Regarding the Lazar trade, he traded a player that will be out of the league in the next two years for the second leading rookie goal scorer and point getter in the AHL.

No for a 2nd. The draft and player availability and selection is separate. If he would have traded Lazar for Formenton.. he'd get a better grade

 

[dumbdick]

I started reading/posting here in 2013, and I don't think I've ever seen a trade with as much consensus as the Karlsson trade. If you go back and read the threads, both here, on the main board, and on places like Reddit or where ever else hockey is discussed, it is incredibly rare to find someone who liked the return. There was a ton of negativity.

There is this one guy who posts here, I forget his username, it's something godfather, but he was in every thread telling people how this was the greatest return of all time, and they were wrong. Well....I guess he was on the right side of history!

The return was really mediocre at the time. It felt like a trade you send to a computer controlled GM in NHL games, where you include as many mediocre pieces as possible in order to get the trade bar filled up enough to get a star. After that, every piece other than Tierney saw its stock rise dramatically since being acquired. For us to win the trade, it basically required a near best case scenario for us, and a near worst case scenario for San Jose.

If the Senators win a cup with this core, and Karlsson never bounces back, the trade has potential to become one of the most infamous trades in NHL history. It could end up becoming the NHL version of the Herschal Walker trade. What makes the Karlsson trade even crazier is how (rightfully) negative it was perceived at the time, and how much of a 180 it has taken after only 2 seasons. I'm not saying I think we're going to win the cup, I'm saying IF.

As someone who loves chaos in the hockey world, because the story off the ice is often just as interesting as what happens on the ice, I think it's hilarious that Dorion will probably go down as a great all time GM because of this rebuild. I've never been as down on Dorion as a lot of people here, but he clearly has not been a very good GM, he is someone who was not prepared to be GM, learned on the job, and made a ton of mistakes. It's like the opposite of that cheesy Batman quote, you either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain. With Dorion, because he was never fired early enough to die a villain, the way this trade is shaking out, he will "die" a hero.

I don't entirely disagree, but I think you're overlooking the money aspects of this deal and how they might have looked to Dorion at the time.

Let's play a little hypothetical game, which hypothetically could actually happen, hypothetically speaking:

Dorion (summer 2018):
"I need $11.5M for Karl's extension, but our roster sucks. Eug has, surprisingly, agreed to let me have the money. Option 1: I bite the bullet and we sign him to $11.5M. Option 2: We put that $11.5M on ice for now and I trade him for futures. We tank for a few years, and then we pull out that money and lock down a major UFA. "

Fast forward to June 2020.
Sens win lottery with SJ pick. We use it to draft Lafreniere first overall, just as The Prophecy had foretold.
Dorion trades Tierney for a 2nd and a 3rd round pick at the draft. We combine that 2nd with the 2021 2nd from the SJ deal to land another late-round 1st in the 2020 draft. We walk out of that draft with Laf, Stutzle, and two other 1st round picks.

Fast forward to July 2020:
Dorion isn't done. He pulls out that $11.5M that wasn't spent on Karl, and hands it to Taylor Hall. Hall looks at Laf and Stutzle and the rest of our core coming up and signs the deal.

The Full EK trade is now:
Karl + Perron
for
Hall + Lafreniere + 1st (2020) + 2nd (2019) + 3rd (2020) + 3rd (2020) + Josh Norris + Rudy Balcers.

And, with that, the greatest trade in hockey history is completed.
Bryan Murray appears as an Obi-Wan-like hologram...Welcome to the Jungle starts playing over the loudspeakers....Murray-Wan gives Dori-On the best high five of his life, sending a shockwave rippling through the CTC.

The FYOUS has begun.

 

[Ser Grogu]

 

[BoardsofCanada]

I don't entirely disagree, but I think you're overlooking the money aspects of this deal and how they might have looked to Dorion at the time.

Let's play a little hypothetical game, which hypothetically could actually happen, hypothetically speaking:

Dorion (summer 2018):
"I need $11.5M for Karl's extension, but our roster sucks. Eug has, surprisingly, agreed to let me have the money. Option 1: I bite the bullet and we sign him to $11.5M. Option 2: We put that $11.5M on ice for now and I trade him for futures. We tank for a few years, and then we pull out that money and lock down a major UFA. "

Fast forward to June 2020.
Sens win lottery with SJ pick. We use it to draft Lafreniere first overall, just as The Prophecy had foretold.
Dorion trades Tierney for a 2nd and a 3rd round pick at the draft. We combine that 2nd with the 2021 2nd from the SJ deal to land another late-round 1st in the 2020 draft. We walk out of that draft with Laf, Stutzle, and two other 1st round picks.

Fast forward to July 2020:
Dorion isn't done. He pulls out that $11.5M that wasn't spent on Karl, and hands it to Taylor Hall. Hall looks at Laf and Stutzle and the rest of our core coming up and signs the deal.

The Full EK trade is now:
Karl + Perron
for
Hall + Lafreniere + 1st (2020) + 2nd (2019) + 3rd (2020) + 3rd (2020) + Josh Norris + Rudy Balcers.

And, with that, the greatest trade in hockey history is completed.
Bryan Murray appears as an Obi-Wan-like hologram...Welcome to the Jungle starts playing over the loudspeakers....Murray-Wan gives Dori-On the best high five of his life, sending a shockwave rippling through the CTC.

The FYOUS has begun.

I like the optimism even if it's fictional.

 

[Sweatred]

He did alright in the end , got lucky with the Sharks imploding. I think Demelo was better than expected. Norris I am sure surpassed expectations as well. I give him a 3/5 because of how things turned out .. I don't consider him a fortune teller or a genius that predicted how it ended up. He did it he gets credit.

He did brutal on the Zibanejad trade 1/5
He did brutal on the Stone trade and how he handled it 0/5
He did brutal on the Hoffman trade and how he handled it 0/5
He did brutal on the Duchene in trade 1/5
He did just ok on the Duchene out trade but cost was high in the end 3/5
He did well on the Dzingel trade 5/5
He did well on the Lazar trade 3/5

He did ....
Great on the EK trade 5/5
Great on the Dzingle trade 5/5
OK on the Lazar trade 3/5
OK on the Stone trade 3/5
OK on D2 trade 3/5
OK on D1 trade 3/5
Poor on Zibby trade 1/5

The Stone trade will take time for the 2ND and Brann to evolve while MS slows with age.

EK and MD’s value dropped right away. One year out those trades are wins. Give the Stone 2-4 years and perspective will chance. I’m glad we’re not paying him out for 8 years.

D1 trade ended up bad but he acquired a 1C with a limited budget via trade. Passing in Turris alone and not extending is worth 2/5 of that trade.

 

[swiftwin]

I think Dorion knew that a rebuild was coming by the summer of 2019. Basic math, take the former 68 million budget, the dead money, along with the cost of re-signing all the stars. It wouldn't work to keep everybody, and without spending to the cap, there'd be no other option than to rebuild.

It explains the aggressiveness with some of the trades that were made from 2016 onward, despite us never being a contender. It was win now time.

There was something weird going on with how Dorion handled the Karlsson trade. It almost seemed like he was sabotaging it in order to stall. I've always wondered if it was his idea to try and attach Ryan to Karlsson, knowing that it would make it nearly impossible to get a deal done with Vegas because attaching Ryan would nuke the return, and give him an argument to sell Melnyk on waiting until the draft.

Even the dog and pony show about making Karlsson an offer on July 1st. It was confirmed by Bill Daly that the Senators did not have to wait until July 1st to talk to Karlsson. Dorion made it seem like it was against the NHL's rules. There was lots of talk that even after the deadline and before July 1st, teams felt they met Dorion's price, but then the goal posts were moved.

I guess it is the ultimate Senspiracy, but I've always wondered if Dorion was trying to play Melnyk, and wait out a sale, so that he could keep Karlsson.

Even so, I don't think the July 1st offer was genuine if it didn't include full trade protection. It was a PR stunt so that they could justify to their season ticket holders that Karlsson left, they didn't push him out. Ironically, with Karlsson's injury issues, the contract itself would have acted as a no trade clause.

This is how I interpret things too.

 

[bert]

I started reading/posting here in 2013, and I don't think I've ever seen a trade with as much consensus as the Karlsson trade. If you go back and read the threads, both here, on the main board, and on places like Reddit or where ever else hockey is discussed, it is incredibly rare to find someone who liked the return. There was a ton of negativity.

There is this one guy who posts here, I forget his username, it's something godfather, but he was in every thread telling people how this was the greatest return of all time, and they were wrong. Well....I guess he was on the right side of history!

The return was really mediocre at the time. It felt like a trade you send to a computer controlled GM in NHL games, where you include as many mediocre pieces as possible in order to get the trade bar filled up enough to get a star. After that, every piece other than Tierney saw its stock rise dramatically since being acquired. For us to win the trade, it basically required a near best case scenario for us, and a near worst case scenario for San Jose.

If the Senators win a cup with this core, and Karlsson never bounces back, the trade has potential to become one of the most infamous trades in NHL history. It could end up becoming the NHL version of the Herschal Walker trade. What makes the Karlsson trade even crazier is how (rightfully) negative it was perceived at the time, and how much of a 180 it has taken after only 2 seasons. I'm not saying I think we're going to win the cup, I'm saying IF.

As someone who loves chaos in the hockey world, because the story off the ice is often just as interesting as what happens on the ice, I think it's hilarious that Dorion will probably go down as a great all time GM because of this rebuild. I've never been as down on Dorion as a lot of people here, but he clearly has not been a very good GM, he is someone who was not prepared to be GM, learned on the job, and made a ton of mistakes. It's like the opposite of that cheesy Batman quote, you either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain. With Dorion, because he was never fired early enough to die a villain, the way this trade is shaking out, he will "die" a hero.

What a poetic illustration of the situation. Well done.

 

[Samsquanch]

I'm still at loss as to how it all worked out the way it actually did...

Like how in god's name was it San Jose of all teams (who already had term big long term dollars already committed to other players on the blueline) that stepped up and put the best offer on the table for EK65, who was still considered to be mega elite and a game breaker.....

And then how in god's name did they fall so hard on their faces so fast and gift us with a golden ticket to willy Wonkas factory.....? I expected regression from them but they were an utter trainwreck in the most wonderful way.

And then to add insult to injury, Josh Norris emerges as one of the best young pros not in the NHL yet, and then Karlsson takes 3 steps back after inking a mega deal that he scrambled to live up to in year #1.

There was most certainly some element of luck for Dorion in how this rebuild turned out for us so far.

But it worked out for him. We look amazingly deep in prospects and picks, almost some next level shit...and even our biggest resident pessimists are basically down to just Melnyk as being the only reason why we wont be a good team again.

We need to give him credit where it's due if were going to crucify him for the gambles that didnt work out, right? It obviously has to be a two way street.

 

[DrEasy]

The legend of Mark Stone....give it a few more years and some of you guys will have him as a unanimous first ballot hall of famer

He's 10th on the franchise's all time points list
10th on the all time goals list
14th on the all time winning goals list

Stone was a great player for us, no doubt about it. But he's getting elevated to heights he certainly didn't reach and may never have.

For someone who is 26th all-time in games played for the Sens, those are actually amazing stats!