What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

Hinterland

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This board has witnessed elite EK carrying mediocre rosters over his tenure in Ottawa on multiple occasions.

This stance is idiotic and has no basis in reality.

The player you're talking about went from +10 to -25 after losing Methot as well as from +6 to -15 after losing Dillon as a defense partner. That all while playing sheltered minutes with mostly offensive starts. Karlsson is great when healthy and when paired with a babysitter but when on his own he's a liability at even strength. Now with his crippled foot even more so than ever before.
 
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Silencio

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Yeah what an idiot getting to the conference finals and barely losing to the cup champs. Should have just finished bottom 2 three seasons in a row.

There's a good chance the Sharks will finish at least bottom 5 two seasons in a row after getting to the conference finals and barely losing to the cup champs, just like Ottawa. I don't see why Doug Wilson gets a pass while Dorion is (rightly) raked over the coals for the same outcome.
 

Sensung

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Oct 3, 2017
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Found an excellent post on the Sharks board that makes a compelling case for EK bouncing back.

Long Post Warning:

At this stage in the Karlsson time on the Sharks, I'd argue endlessly that's it's premature to make any sweeping conclusions. There are list of facts that contribute to play below his career average levels that I feel often get overlooked.
... (edited for length)

Some of his other elite attributes, like passing, vision, puck control, and, most importantly, zone exits/entries are still elite relative to the field, with the latter ability being unmatched. Analyzing the NHL’s skill players: Who is the best at breaking out? - Sportsnet.ca

Now, let's look at a couple of facts about Karlsson that have hindered his ability to be the Norris-level defenseman he once was. I'll try to put these in chronological order the best I can and bold the very important ones
  1. Internal issues in Ottawa lead to management trying and failing to trade him at the deadline
  2. 5 months prior to his eventual trade, he lost child
  3. Hoffman saga
  4. Gets traded to the Sharks during training camp, doesnt play preseason games. Slow start, looks rusty
  5. Emotional return to Ottawa behind him, Karlsson explodes as perhaps the best player in the league
  6. Injures his groin
  7. Returns for the playoffs, clearing still injured, but produces and plays well.
  8. Blues target him (confirmed) with physical play, re-injures groin
  9. Limited offseason training while he recovers from injury
  10. Has a healthy baby the day of the season opener (heavily understated how important this is)
  11. Slow start again, made to look worse by abysmal goaltending
  12. Injured again
Needless to say, he has had a wild and abnormal two years. So let's look at some of the big issues.

Physical hindrances: During his time in San Jose, Karlsson has not had the ability to have proper offseason and preseason training with the team. 2018/2019 season saw him round to elite form after some adjusting. 2019/2020 saw his physical preparation be limited by injury and the birth of his daughter (missed games, likely poor sleep schedule, etc).

Mental hindrances: The whole Ottawa ordeal clearly was a roadblock for him, as evidenced by his turnaround after the game in Ottawa in 2018. This season, and again this is extremely understated, the birth of his daughter absolutely became his priority over hockey, and while he is a professional, he is a human first and it's understandable that he would prioritize family over a job given the death of his first child.

Goaltending woes: Karlsson's game has always been high-risk, high-reward. It's why he played so well with a steady defenseman like Methot, and even Dillon at times. In Ottawa, he played in front of Craig Anderson, who could make routine saves and come up big when Karlsson would take an offensive risk / make a defensive mistake. Jones, on the other hand, cannot. Watch any Senators game from Karlsson's time there and his defensive style doesnt look much different. He still lost track of the puck in the crease, would let guys in behind him, would stick to posts and be flatfooted etc, but the difference was he had a goalie who could make routine, low danger saves.

Playing from behind: In 57 games this season that Karlsson played, the Sharks surrendered the first goal 31 times. Of those 31 games, they had 8 wins, gave up the first goal roughly within the first 5 mins 17(!) times (20 times in the first 10 mins), and also game up the second goal 15 times. Those aren decidedly not good numbers, nor numbers reflective of a team with good goaltending or team defense. Playing from behind, especially within the first 5 mins, throws off a teams entire plan, and when it's a repeating pattern, it breaks player morale. Hard for teams to produce offensively when they are constantly playing from behind.

For record, in last year's playoffs, the Sharks played 20 games. They scored the first goal 8 times and won 7 of those games. 12 games they surrendered the first goal, 9 of those coming in roughly the first 5 mins. They lost every one of those games.

My overall point in all of this is to highlight that it's important to weigh multiple factors, many less obvious, when evaluating Karlsson's time on the Sharks, beyond points and goals against. Goaltending has really f***ed this team up and forced the team to constantly play from behind, stifling the offense. And beyond that, i think it's really critical to understand the physical and mental effects of him losing and then having a child.

Let's give the guy a chance to have a normal season before we make any conclusions about him.

Attached the data for those interested
 

Hinterland

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Stating that EK was “made by Methot” or “needs a babysitter” is laughable.

This board has seen EK play at an elite level with multiple partners.

Nobody said that he was made by Methot but due to certain weaknesses he needs a babysitter and sheltered minutes with offensive starts in order to be effective at even strength. Now with his crippled foot more than ever before. He was making up for a lot with his excellent skating and mobility...that's visibly not possible anymore. His skating isn't even close from what it was only a couple of years ago.
 

Sensung

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The player you're talking about went from +10 to -25 after losing Methot as well as from +6 to -15 after losing Dillon as a defense partner. That all while playing sheltered minutes with mostly offensive starts. Karlsson is great when healthy and when paired with a babysitter but when on his own he's a liability at even strength. Now with his crippled foot even more so than ever before.
So when EK went from Methot to Oduya (while playing injured coming off of surgery) his +/- went down?

That is your argument? Seriously?

Help me out here. Can you provide a run down on how Methot and Oduya’s stats went after they stopped playing with EK?
 
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Micklebot

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Again, trading for Karlsson wasn't the mistake. Signing him was. That's why they had to let go so many of their vets and that's why they went from contender to laughing matter in essentially no time.

Nobody wants Labanc...there are lots of reports about SJ trying to trade Labanc...it never happened. For a good reason. Great skills but no hockey sense at all. Also, SJ wouldn't have traded three roster players for one...that wasn't gonna happen. If Labanc was included, it would have been for DeMelo. They also wouldn't have included a top6 forward in the Karlsson deal so Hertl, I'm 100% sure, was never even part of the conversations between the teams. Even if Dorion mentioned Hertl, Wilson would have hung up his phone immediately. Wilson was trying to land Karlsson to win cups, not to drift sidewards and improve his defense just to weaken his forward group.
So if Dorion wanted Hertl, Wilson negotiated him down to a top prospect in Norris? That's kind of the point i was making, no? If we wanted meier, same thing. We might have wanted one of those guys and settled on Norris with Tierney.

As for Lebanc, he was more coveted at the time of the trade than he is today, and Norris was far less coveted. Here's a link to lwos were they have both Balcers and ferraro ahead of Norris for example.

TSP: Top San Jose Sharks Prospects - Last Word on Hockey
 

Hinterland

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So when EK went from Method to Oduya (while playing injured coming off of surgery) his +/- went down?

That is your argument? Seriously?

Help me out here. Can you provide a run down on how Methot and Oduya’s stats went after they stopped playing with EK?

He won't get a better defense partner than Oduya in SJ. There's nobody left. Ryan is gone, so is Dillon. Vlasic has lost all motivation and is the most lackluster player leaguewide so the best you can hope for is Radim Simek.
 

Sensung

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Nobody said that he was made by Methot but due to certain weaknesses he needs a babysitter and sheltered minutes with offensive starts in order to be effective at even strength. Now with his crippled foot more than ever before. He was making up for a lot with his excellent skating and mobility...that's visibly not possible anymore. His skating isn't even close from what it was only a couple of years ago.
Karlsson, as great as he is with the puck, was always at AHL level defensively and carried by Methot.

Particularly idiotic statements are easy to remember and find.
 

Hinterland

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So if Dorion wanted Hertl, Wilson negotiated him down to a top prospect in Norris? That's kind of the point i was making, no? If we wanted meier, same thing. We might have wanted one of those guys and settled on Norris with Tierney.

As for Lebanc, he was more coveted at the time of the trade than he is today, and Norris was far less coveted. Here's a link to lwos were they have both Balcers and ferraro ahead of Norris for example.

TSP: Top San Jose Sharks Prospects - Last Word on Hockey

Balcers and Ferraro were never ahead of Norris...not even close. Norris was always the Sharks prospect with the highest upside since Timo Meier...he might even turn out to be better than Meier.

Dorion may have asked for Meier or Hertl just for good measures but he must have known that the Sharks were all in and not willing to even discuss trading a top6 forward.
 

Sensung

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He won't get a better defense partner than Oduya in SJ. There's nobody left. Ryan is gone, so is Dillon. Vlasic has lost all motivation and is the most lackluster player leaguewide so the best you can hope for is Radim Simek.
Oduya on his last legs in Ottawa?

Anyone who has watched 5 min of Simek knows he is light years better than the Ottawa version of Oduya.

You are compiling quite an impressive list of terrible takes.
 

Hinterland

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Oduya on his last legs in Ottawa?

Anyone who has watched 5 min of Simek knows he is light years better than the Ottawa version of Oduya.

You are compiling quite an impressive list of terrible takes.

It all doesn't matter, mate. As a matter of fact, Karlsson needs a babysitter to be effective at even strength. He won't get one in SJ because they don't have a quality LD left. Let Simek be better than Oduya on his last legs, he's still no Dillon or Methot snot good enough to cover for Karlsson. Not even for prime Karlsson and surely not for crippled Karlsson.
 

Hinterland

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Oduya may have been the worst defenceman in the whole league the year he played with the Sens. Quit reaching, you are hurting your argument more than helping it.

I don't care about Oduya...I never even mentioned him. Never part of my argumentation.
 

Micklebot

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Balcers and Ferraro were never ahead of Norris...not even close. Norris was always the Sharks prospect with the highest upside since Timo Meier...he might even turn out to be better than Meier.

Dorion may have asked for Meier or Hertl just for good measures but he must have known that the Sharks were all in and not willing to even discuss trading a top6 forward.
Thats great, you have an opinion, but it wasn't universally held at the time of the trade. Its possible Dorion shared your opinion, but unless you are secretly him, we can never know. So my point stands.
 

Sensung

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It all doesn't matter, mate. As a matter of fact, Karlsson needs a babysitter to be effective at even strength. He won't get one in SJ because they don't have a quality LD left. Let Simek be better than Oduya on his last legs, he's still no Dillon or Methot snot good enough to cover for Karlsson. Not even for prime Karlsson and surely not for crippled Karlsson.
It does matter, mate.

I watched Methot for years and as an Ottawa guy, I have a soft spot for him. He had his strengths and was a good partner for EK.

Simek is superior to Methot at his best and looks to still be on the upswing.

If SJ gets any goaltending, they will bounce back next season and EK will be leading the charge.

I’ve bookmarked this thread for when it happens.
 

Sensung

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I don't care about Oduya...I never even mentioned him. Never part of my argumentation.
He won't get a better defense partner than Oduya in SJ. There's nobody left. Ryan is gone, so is Dillon. Vlasic has lost all motivation and is the most lackluster player leaguewide so the best you can hope for is Radim Simek.

It all doesn't matter, mate. As a matter of fact, Karlsson needs a babysitter to be effective at even strength. He won't get one in SJ because they don't have a quality LD left. Let Simek be better than Oduya on his last legs, he's still no Dillon or Methot snot good enough to cover for Karlsson. Not even for prime Karlsson and surely not for crippled Karlsson.

You do realize that your previous posts are easily searchable, right?
 

FormentonTheFuture

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Sep 29, 2017
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It does matter, mate.

I watched Methot for years and as an Ottawa guy, I have a soft spot for him. He had his strengths and was a good partner for EK.

Simek is superior to Methot at his best and looks to still be on the upswing.

If SJ gets any goaltending, they will bounce back next season and EK will be leading the charge.

I’ve bookmarked this thread for when it happens.
does anyone really care what happens to SJ after this season? I know I don't. This season was all that mattered to me. And it's truly amazing that they were so awful
 

Hinterland

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It does matter, mate.

I watched Methot for years and as an Ottawa guy, I have a soft spot for him. He had his strengths and was a good partner for EK.

Simek is superior to Methot at his best and looks to still be on the upswing.

If SJ gets any goaltending, they will bounce back next season and EK will be leading the charge.

I’ve bookmarked this thread for when it happens.

What kind of goaltending do you think they'll get?:laugh:
Jones is not moveable, the market is limited and they'll be right up against the cap again. Their only hope is that Jones reinvents himself. Certainly possible, but not likely to happen.

The rest you wrote is not worth commenting... I'm not gonna bookmark this post because I'm not the person to do it but others will. You just turned yourself into a laughing matter. SJ is done and done for years. Not just because of Karlsson (I explained why in details before)...he just helped speed up the process.
 

Hinterland

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does anyone really care what happens to SJ after this season? I know I don't. This season was all that mattered to me. And it's truly amazing that they were so awful

I do, because I like the Sharks and because Timo Meier is playing for them...not a lot of reasons for hope though. Their roster is a mess, they're up against the cap, they can't move any salary because they've crippled themselves with long term contracts protected by NMC's and their prospect pool is empty. Wish I could see something positive but it's hard. They're much like Detroit.
 

Micklebot

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I only replied. He was never part of my argumentation. Again. I don't care about Oduya.
Right, thats kind of the point though. You ignored him as a variable, his impact was pointed out as relevant.

The whole point is if you want to credibly evaluate why Karlsson had a drop in plus minus, you need to look at all the variables. You may not care about him, but that's part of why you argument is flawed.
 

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