Proposal: Weegar to Leafs

[The Podium]

I get what you're point is but it's for cap strapped teams, not ones (FLA) with $11.5 million in space....
FLA isn't forced to trade Weegar to sign some other big free agent. If he is moved, I'd hope for something similar to Toews, two 2nds or a late 1st.

NYI could have got more for Toews as well but Sakic knew he had the leverage and paid more for him than Schmidt.

Ya because of cap issues not because value has bottomed out on good players...

And here are those external factors you were so quick to dismiss:

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

And here are those external factors you were so quick to dismiss:

Was he traded yet? And was it below market value?

 

[Red Piller]

A defenseman in the 91st percentile of GARast season with crazy good defensive impacts is "a replacement level defender" now.

This is why I try and stay off the main boards, just horrible Leaf takes left and right

you can use whatever stats you want to. He’s not even a top 4 defender but here you are saying the guy is amazing. I agree, you should stay off the main boards. 11 points and averaged 17 minutes a night. Yeah sorry. He’s replacement level

I remember you defending Jake gardiner to the death so it makes sense you’d defend Dermott like this and the play on ice doesn’t even matter to you. You’ll find some way to twist things to try to show that he’s good. The fact of the matter is he is a bad defenseman on a bad defensive team. The actual numbers show it. And so does the eye test.

 

[violaswallet]

Was he traded yet? And was it below market value?

Can we just walk away and block the Leafs phone like a GM would?

I’m curious what we could get for a Weegar but we’ve rejected Dermott/Holl/Kerfoot a bajillion times

 

[The Podium]

Was he traded yet? And was it below market value?

Again I didnt say he will be traded below market value, but it would be naive to suggest definitively that he wont.

 

[Morgs]

you can use whatever stats you want to. He’s not even a top 4 defender but here you are saying the guy is amazing. I agree, you should stay off the main boards. 11 points and averaged 17 minutes a night. Yeah sorry. He’s replacement level

I remember you defending Jake gardiner to the death so it makes sense you’d defend Dermott like this and the play on ice doesn’t even matter to you. You’ll find some way to twist things to try to show that he’s good. The fact of the matter is he is a bad defenseman on a bad defensive team. The actual numbers show it. And so does the eye test.

I'm so glad we get to hear about your eye test and points!!!!!

My goodness

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Are people still on about dermott not being a top 4 guy? Sheesh. That's all thanks to babcock, dermott was playing top 4 minutes with keefe. And injuries aside guess what he averaged #4 minutes as a dman in the playoffs for the leafs.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Again I didnt say he will be traded below market value, but it would be naive to suggest definitively that he wont.

Guess we will have to wait and see then but I can almost guarantee you if he's traded, it won't be to TOR.

 

[The Hockey Tonk Man]

Can see him getting something similar to Grzelcyk....not sure what Florida is offering him

 

[Red Piller]

I'm so glad we get to hear about your eye test and points!!!!!

My goodness

you’re right dude I prefer GARast lol! Can you let me know of another good defenseman that averaged 17 minutes a night and scored 12 points. I’d love to see these examples

let me guess let me guess. Jeremy Bracco was amazing and Timothy is going to be a top pairing d

 

[Morgs]

you’re right dude I prefer GARast lol! Can you let me know of another good defenseman that averaged 17 minutes a night and scored 12 points. I’d love to see these examples

let me guess let me guess. Jeremy Bracco was amazing and Timothy is going to be a top pairing d

Just because you don't believe players are good or have value doesn't mean you're correct. Especially when only basing your opinion on your eyes and points when there are legitimate projection models that show stats such as xG and GAR actually show to be a far better projector of both future success and what a player actually brings today.

I thought Bracco had a chance but his numbers were heavily based on PP success. He was very clearly a lacking player at 5v5 and the Guest allegations were a clear sign he didn't have a spot in the organization regardless of his future impact.

Liljegren is pacing at minimum be a top-4 guy. Elite AHL defenseman in his 20 year old season that when finally got some PP time put up the production a two-way defenseman should. Regardless of your snickering and sneering and most of the media writing him off for no reason he's on pace to become a very effective NHL defenseman.

 

[Red Piller]

Just because you don't believe players are good or have value doesn't mean you're correct. Especially when only basing your opinion on your eyes and points when there are legitimate projection models that show stats such as xG and GAR actually show to be a far better projector of both future success and what a player actually brings today.

I thought Bracco had a chance but his numbers were heavily based on PP success. He was very clearly a lacking player at 5v5 and the Guest allegations were a clear sign he didn't have a spot in the organization regardless of his future impact.

Liljegren is pacing at minimum be a top-4 guy. Elite AHL defenseman in his 20 year old season that when finally got some PP time put up the production a two-way defenseman should. Regardless of your snickering and sneering and most of the media writing him off for no reason he's on pace to become a very effective NHL defenseman.

Ok so with all that being said can you show me a single defenseman in the NHL that averages 17 minutes a night and scores 12 points a year that is considered good

 

[Red Piller]

Is Kevin Shattenkirk better than Miro Heiskanen? Your stats seem to indicate so

 

[Morgs]

Ok so with all that being said can you show me a single defenseman in the NHL that averages 17 minutes a night and scores 12 points a year that is considered good

So if he played 18 minutes a night and scored 13 points he would be? Points are a horrible evaluation tool, and that goes double for defenseman.

You win, Dermott sucks. I'm just done arguing with you lmao.

 

[96]

Have to laugh at this one. Leafs get a top 4d for what? Pieces they don't want anymore?

lots of likes, seems like weegar is a consensus top 4D... Lol the obsession is coo coo CRAZY

 

[Red Piller]

So if he played 18 minutes a night and scored 13 points he would be? Points are a horrible evaluation tool, and that goes double for defenseman.

You win, Dermott sucks. I'm just done arguing with you lmao.

I am glad you came to your senses at least.
I’m not saying points are a good evaluation tool but even the worst defenseman in the league get more than that. If he isn’t a shutdown guy, or an even below average point producer, and he doesn’t play a bunch of minutes, how is he good? This isn’t baseball. Goals above replacement? Really?
Enjoy him I guess

 

[Fogelhund]

Ok so with all that being said can you show me a single defenseman in the NHL that averages 17 minutes a night and scores 12 points a year that is considered good

Understand that this is a 23 year old kid, with three years under his belt, and has projected well in every area, with a career high of 17 points.

Note, Weegar at the same age, had three NHL games, and 0 points.
Giordano at the same age, had a career high 15 points. (Dermott's is 17)
Nate Schmidt at the age of 25, had a career high of 17 points.

I'm not suggesting that Dermott is going to become a Giordano, or Schmidt, but maybe pump the brakes just a lot here. D-men's games continue to grow to their mid 20's... Dermott is far ahead of Weegar at the same age, and doesn't look too different than what Schmidt or Giordano did at the same age... in just points.

 

[violaswallet]

Understand that this is a 23 year old kid, with three years under his belt, and has projected well in every area, with a career high of 17 points.

Note, Weegar at the same age, had three NHL games, and 0 points.
Giordano at the same age, had a career high 15 points. (Dermott's is 17)
Nate Schmidt at the age of 25, had a career high of 17 points.

I'm not suggesting that Dermott is going to become a Giordano, or Schmidt, but maybe pump the brakes just a lot here. D-men's games continue to grow to their mid 20's... Dermott is far ahead of Weegar at the same age, and doesn't look too different than what Schmidt or Giordano did at the same age... in just points.

Sure but we have no idea about development: the three guys you chose to discuss all have 95th-99th percentile outcomes given everything; we don’t know how Dermott would do

 

[Fogelhund]

Sure but we have no idea about development: the three guys you chose to discuss all have 95th-99th percentile outcomes given everything; we don’t know how Dermott would do

Of course, WE do not... but hockey guys, teams with scouts, scouting other teams... they know the players pretty well. Even then, we don't know how they will develop, no more than we know if Weegar will work in other teams systems, or away from Ekblad. The point here is that judging a 23 year old, who is progressing well defensively, and by most metrics, shouldn't be judged as a finished product.

 

[violaswallet]

Of course, WE do not... but hockey guys, teams with scouts, scouting other teams... they know the players pretty well. Even then, we don't know how they will develop, no more than we know if Weegar will work in other teams systems, or away from Ekblad. The point here is that judging a 23 year old, who is progressing well defensively, and by most metrics, shouldn't be judged as a finished product.

Sure: I agree there is a forecast that we can’t do. I do a fair criterion is judging them today given this is a fan board. I do think it matters that the argument for Dermott is that he will be a better player in the future which is risky

I do think as fans the frustration is that Florida fans have frequently rejected the set of players but it is consistently offered again and again without considering our needs and often assuming Dermott will develop well. In particular Dermott does not particular make sense in light of signing Gudas and trading for Nuti: our bottom four is filled with Yands, Stralman, Gudas and Nuti. Unless we want to play Dermott or Nuti on the top pairing a trade doesn’t make great sense for this value.

 

[Fogelhund]

Sure: I agree there is a forecast that we can’t do. I do a fair criterion is judging them today given this is a fan board. I do think it matters that the argument for Dermott is that he will be a better player in the future which is risky

I do think as fans the frustration is that Florida fans have frequently rejected the set of players but it is consistently offered again and again without considering our needs and often assuming Dermott will develop well. In particular Dermott does not particular make sense in light of signing Gudas and trading for Nuti: our bottom four is filled with Yands, Stralman, Gudas and Nuti. Unless we want to play Dermott or Nuti on the top pairing a trade doesn’t make great sense for this value.

I appreciate what your saying, but from the outside, it looks like you will need a LD, and a 2/3C... At least that is what I see... Sure, Dermott isn't going to fit in your top pair, but then, I highly doubt you are getting a top pairing LD for Weegar at this point. There are none available in Free Agency, that are any better than Dermott.

If it's a C, then maybe Kerfoot is available...but that would depend on the Leafs finding another C in Free Agency, and there really isn't much there either.

But, at least we recognize that you've got a talented guy in Weegar..

So, what is your need, and what would you want in a trade for Weegar... just position is fine.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I'm not saying that Dermott is better than Weegar, but there are things we need to keep in perspective.

Dermott has 157 NHL games under his belt so far, and has rarely been given the opportunity to move up the lineup. That doesn't mean he isn't capable, it's just where he's been played. When Rielly and Muzzin were injured at the same time last year, Dermott moved to top pairing. He stepped up big time during those games, and wasn't on the ice for goals against, in several of those games, and limited chances... very small sample set though, and he's only 23. Dermott has more to give, than we've seen, and will be cost controlled for some time still.

At the same age, Weegar had 3 NHL games under his belt. At the same age, Dermott was much further ahead in his development. Dermott is physically a bigger man (not by much though), and last year, they had the same number of hits. Mostly playing third pairing situations, Dermott's highest points total, is one point less, than Weegar's career best(playing with Ekblad), in far less ice time.

Last year, Dermott played a ton with Barrie, Holl and Ceci... Weegar played with Ekblad almost 60% of the time.

You put Dermott with Ekblad, and Weegar with Barrie and Ceci, and I think the conversation is somewhat different.

I really like Weegar, and today, he's a better D.. I'd love to have added him to the Leafs. I don't think you give up on 23 year old D men, who has 157 NHL games, and is showing decent promise. At peak... they are probably very similar players.

This line of reasoning is illogical for Toronto's current situation though

Weeger is a much better player now than Dermott, and Sandin is coming up the pipeline. Dermott will , even if he ends up as good, want money that Toronto simply cannot afford to pay him so he would be moved anyway

Toronto's contention window is now and until Matthews' contract ends. He signed himself directly to UFA and I doubt he returns, though even if he stays in Toronto it'll cost even more than he is now as he is still improving. By Toronto paying Tavares, Marner, Matthews, and soon Rielly and whatever dman they eventually acquire in the next two seasons.. they aren't a team set up for the long haul, they are set up for the now. Which is fine. But that means a guy like Dermott is not worth keeping if it improves the team now - especially with Sandin coming up.

 

[violaswallet]

I appreciate what your saying, but from the outside, it looks like you will need a LD, and a 2/3C... At least that is what I see... Sure, Dermott isn't going to fit in your top pair, but then, I highly doubt you are getting a top pairing LD for Weegar at this point. There are none available in Free Agency, that are any better than Dermott.

If it's a C, then maybe Kerfoot is available...but that would depend on the Leafs finding another C in Free Agency, and there really isn't much there either.

But, at least we recognize that you've got a talented guy in Weegar..

So, what is your need, and what would you want in a trade for Weegar... just position is fine.

That’s the bizarre thing about the Weegar saga: he has been our top 2 LD and why most of us won’t trade him. You hit our needs well: 2/3C, scoring winger (probably) and an upgrade or equivalent player to Weegar.

Most likely if we move him it would be prospects with high end potential

 

[34]

As per Kyle don't expect any more moves

This.

Toronto/Dubas already shut down the trade for Weegar. Florida tried for AJ and Dermott. Dubas hung the phone up.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Sure: I agree there is a forecast that we can’t do. I do a fair criterion is judging them today given this is a fan board. I do think it matters that the argument for Dermott is that he will be a better player in the future which is risky

I do think as fans the frustration is that Florida fans have frequently rejected the set of players but it is consistently offered again and again without considering our needs and often assuming Dermott will develop well. In particular Dermott does not particular make sense in light of signing Gudas and trading for Nuti: our bottom four is filled with Yands, Stralman, Gudas and Nuti. Unless we want to play Dermott or Nuti on the top pairing a trade doesn’t make great sense for this value.

Gotta give them Leafs fans credit, you say NO again and again but they keep coming back and believing, 53 years strong now.

If not Dermott + AJ, its gotta be Dermott + pick or Kerfoot + pick.
We have no choice but to accept this, despite many other teams being interested in Weegar.