Player Discussion Tyler Motte Appreciation

[HockeyWooot]

Their 4th line looked different in the playoffs because :

a) The Kovalchuk deadline rental pushed a LW down the depth chart
b) Brendan Leipsic unexpectedly decided to commit career suicide and was released.
c) They had several injuries, especially at C, and were forced to play guys like Brian Pinho and Travis Boyd.

The whole team looked like absolute garbage in this playoffs. The point remains that they were a top-5 team in the NHL during the regular season running a 4th line consisting of 3 castoffs at combined $2.9 million.

4th lines are very unimportant. You find three warm bodies that don't hurt you, and the biggest positive they can bring is that they're cheap. Running a cheap 4th line frees up money to spend on players that actually matter. Replace Beagle and Schaller with two $800k scrubs and Benn with Biega on our roster last year, and you free up $5 million to spend on an actual difference-maker at the top end of your roster. And the replacement depth players would actually have been better than what we had.

Disagree that 4th lines are unimportant.The strength of your bottom 6 can be what puts you to over the top.

Great 4th lines can go head to head with the opponents top lines and push possession the other way. The Blues 4th line is excellent, they were giving our top lines fits keeping them hemmed in their own zones. Boston in its cup run last year had an excellent 4th line as well.

I do completely agree not to overpay for 4th line players though, generally speaking. The best teams can draft/develop quality bottom 6 players, and cycle new ones in when the former ones get prices out.

The exception I can think of is if the 4th line player projects to have more upside, in which case the contract is a value contract providing quality depth.

I personally would be okay giving Motte 1-1.5* 3 years, ONLY IF the Canucks brass and scouting think there is more upside there.

 

[Spectrefire]

Imagine watching Motte score 4 major goals this series and thinking 4th liners aren't important lol.

 

[F A N]

I personally would be okay giving Motte 1-1.5* 3 years, ONLY IF the Canucks brass and scouting think there is more upside there.

Well Motte at $1M AAV doesn't need to have more upside. Motte at $1.5M AAV you would hope can put up 10 goals in the regular season and step up in the playoffs.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Imagine watching Motte score 4 major goals this series and thinking 4th liners aren't important lol.

Sure they are. Just dont overpay for them.

 

[Canucks1096]

5 goals from the fourth line in the last 2 games. 4 from Motte, 1994 and 2011 playoffs not even 1 goal from the fourth line. Here we have 5 in the last 2 games.

Don't remember the last player to have back to back 2 goal games in the playoffs. I think it was Courtnall in game 5 and 6 vs the Rangers.

 

[Hammman]

5 goals from the fourth line in the last 2 games. 4 from Motte, 1994 and 2011 playoffs not even 1 goal from the fourth line. Here we have 5 in the last 2 games.

Don't remember the last player to have back to back 2 goal games in the playoffs. I think it was Courtnall in game 5 and 6 vs the Rangers.

There's this Horvat guy...

 

[MS]

Imagine watching Motte score 4 major goals this series and thinking 4th liners aren't important lol.

Imagine thinking this is some sort of repeatable occurrence instead of a freak scenario like when Jeff Cowan scored 6 goals in 4 key games in a stretch playoff drive (and 1 in 88 other games as a Canuck).

Motte has played very well the past two games but he had 1 goal in 25 games before this. And it isn’t going to continue. And it doesn’t mean that 4th liners aren’t - by far - the least important players on your team and paying big money for them isn’t stupid. The fact that Motte is $900k off the scrap heap proves the opposite, if anything.

 

[Canucks1096]

There's this Horvat guy...

Oh yeah.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Oh yeah.

Why Mr 1096, I do believe you asked me which games I am watching in the other thread.

 

[Canucks1096]

Why Mr 1096, I do believe you aaked me which games I am watching in the other thread.

What is your point? I forgot Horvat got back to back goals. So what.

Canucks scored 22 goals this series. If someone asked you right now without looking. Can you remember all 22 goal scorer? If you can't remember the goal scorer. That means you didn't watch the game?

I think we can agree Canucks are not great defensively and and are giving up a lot of chances. You said Canucks don't need Myers which is a number 4 D. Hopefully you now realize how ridiculous your statement was

I honestly think you agree but you don't want to admit you're wrong.

 

[MS]

You are confusing the argument. In 2011, Boston's 4th line actually cost more than most other teams. In 2011 the Canucks didn't have an established 4th line. Lapierre was a deadline acquisition. Clearly Hansen was better than a 4th line player.

Horvat was once a 4th line player. Hansen was in his last year of a one year bridge contract in 2011. If you happen to have a 4th line that outperformed their contracts it may not be sustainable. At some point you got to decide whether to pay more for your 4th line or go cheap and start over. In previous seasons, Washington had Beagle as their 4th line anchor and had a revolving door of wingers on the 4th line.

In 2011 we had one of the most dominant teams in NHL history with a junk collection on the 4th line most of the season. Then we upgraded it at the deadline as it was literally the only weakness on that team but never got to see that play out because of injuries.

Boston’s 4th line was middle of the pack in salary. It was two journeymen picked up at small trade cost plus a cheap veteran goon.

Nothing about either of those two teams does anything to disprove that overpaying for veteran 4th liners is stupid or that your 4th line is by far the least important part of your team. Again, they prove the opposite, if anything.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

What is your point? I forgot Horvat got back to back goals. So what.

Canucks scored 22 goals this series. If someone asked you right now without looking. Can you remember all 22 goal scorer? If you can't remember the goal scorer. That means you didn't watch the game?

I think we can agree Canucks are not great defensively and and are giving up a lot of chances. You said Canucks don't need Myers which is a number 4 D. Hopefully you now realize how ridiculous your statement was

I honestly think you agree but you don't want to admit you're wrong.

My point is you were trying to score argument points by challenging my perception of what I watch when its clear your own perception of what you watch is, well less than perfect.

 

[CantStoptheBrock]

Hi again there, brand new account that somehow is intricately familiar with my entire posting history!

You ignored my previous questions to you, but I'll ask you two more :

1) Who performed better for Vancouver, $700k Alex Biega or $4 million Erik Gudbranson?
2) What would have been a better idea ... a) keeping Biega around at $700k for 19-20 and then having no salary commitments for 20-21? or b) Spending $2 million on Jordie Benn to be a healthy scratch and then being stuck with his garbage contract for 20-21?

I'm pretty sure you didn't follow the Canucks in 2011, but let me help you a bit there :

1) Max Lapierre was supposed to be the team's 4th line center, and was a very solid player comparable to Paille types on a very nice $900k contract ... but because Manny Malhotra lost an eye ended up playing as our 3rd line center and we had to fill in with AHLers. Additionally, with everyone healthy Jannik Hansen or Raffi Torres (both under $1 million) was also on that line. But when Mikael Samuelsson got hurt, a winger had to move up the lineup. So the intended 4th line was something like Hansen-Lapierre-Glass at ~$2.2 million. Implying that what was actually on the ice was the intended plan is intellectually dishonest.

2) Nobody is saying that you should just fill your roster with bad bottom-6 AHLers like Oreskovich. Oreskovich was a terrible player who had no business on an NHL roster and would be like us dressing Vincent Arseneau for NHL games right now.

Also, Boston's 2011 4th line of Campbell-Paille-Thornton made ... $2.9 million combined. They didn't stupidly splurge on bad old players to build that line, which is exactly in line with what I'm saying. As usual, you're not even understanding the argument.

Also, St. Louis' 4th line has a positive goal differential in these playoffs. If you're highlighting them as a major problem, uhhhhh.

Ahhh, Motte and Beagle's combined three goals last night are like a serving of cosmic justice in this thread. Along with Jacob de la Rose getting the party started by stepping on the puck last night. Yes, fourth lines are so unimportant!

Pure shifting the goalposts of a reply above. First you argue that fourth liners are very unimportant-- which Cup-pedigree NHL coaches both firmly disagree with--than you retreat into some bizarrely banal "it's good to get cheap players that are good that only I can identify like Brendan Gaunce and not Tyler Motte" argument. OK...

All we're asking for you to admit is that "12th/13th forward" Tyler Motte is a much better NHL fourth liner than "good third liner" Brendan Gaunce. It's pretty hilarious that you will never admit that.

 

[MS]

Ahhh, Motte and Beagle's combined three goals last night are like a serving of cosmic justice in this thread. Along with Jacob de la Rose getting the party started by stepping on the puck last night. Yes, fourth lines are so unimportant!

Pure shifting the goalposts of a reply above. First you argue that fourth liners are very unimportant-- which Cup-pedigree NHL coaches both firmly disagree with--than you retreat into some bizarrely banal "it's good to get cheap players that are good that only I can identify like Brendan Gaunce and not Tyler Motte" argument. OK...

All we're asking for you to admit is that "12th/13th forward" Tyler Motte is a much better NHL fourth liner than "good third liner" Brendan Gaunce. It's pretty hilarious that you will never admit that.

4th liners are the most unimportant parts of an NHL roster. Yes or no?

And I see that again you have no response to the questions I asked nor my response to your ludicrous 2011 comparison/example.

 

[bandwagonesque]

4th liners are the most unimportant parts of an NHL roster. Yes or no?

And I see that again you have no response to the questions I asked nor my response to your ludicrous 2011 comparison/example.

Not when Brendan Gaunce and Ronalds Kenins are on them, tell you what.

 

[MS]

Not when Brendan Gaunce and Ronalds Kenins are on them, tell you what.

What would have been better, paying Gaunce $800k or paying Tim Schaller $2 million to do a far worse job playing the same role?

These LOL GAUNCE posts are frankly embarrassing for the people making them as they show that they a) don’t actually understand the argument being made and b) don’t understand the dynamics of a capped league.

 

[CantStoptheBrock]

4th liners are the most unimportant parts of an NHL roster. Yes or no?

Another leading question into a Saw 6-like thought experiment, all in order to distract away from your initial–ludicrous as you like to say–assertion that fourth lines are "very unimportant."

But to play your game, no. Beyond top-level elite talent, all components of a successful team are equally important. That's basically the definition of a team, which the Canucks should be educating you about by now. Fourth lines help define the identity and culture of a team, which is why Berube was starting Finals games with his fourth line last year. I believe Boston's fourth line also started some games against us in 2011. They also provide energy to the bench, and in the case of Motte, can agitate and throw other players' off their games with relentless pressure. No matter how much you take some obscure stat and torture it relentlessly into an "argument" about Brendan Gaunce actually being good, he will never be better than Tyler Motte. Admit it.

Your question is like asking what's the more important part of a plane, the wings or the engine or the cockpit? Um...

 

[MS]

Another leading question into a Saw 6-like thought experiment, all in order to distract away from your initial assertion that fourth lines are "very unimportant."

But to play your game, no. Beyond top-level elite talent, all components of a successful team are equally important. Fourth lines help define the identity and culture of a team, which is why Berube was starting Finals games with his fourth line last year. I believe Boston's fourth line also started some games against us in 2011. They also provide energy to the bench, and in the case of Motte, can agitate and throw other players' off their games with relentless pressure. No matter how much you take some obscure stat and torture it relentlessly into an "argument" about Brendan Gaunce actually being good, he will never be better than Tyler Motte. Admit it.

Your question is like asking what's the more important part of a boat, the hull or the engine? Um...

No, it’s like saying which is the least important part of a boat, the hull, the engine, or the bow rail?

The least important players on your team are your 4th line. By far. And Tyler Motte having an outlier game doesn’t change that.

 

[MS]

This ‘4th line are super important’ thing coming from Benning supporters is also super ironic considering the results we’ve had from 4th lines built by Jim Benning from 2015 thru last week have been consistently at the bottom of the NHL and represented some of the worst value in the NHL. But hey, 2 games changes everything. Small sample size what now?

 

[Jimbo57]

Another leading question into a Saw 6-like thought experiment, all in order to distract away from your initial–ludicrous as you like to say–assertion that fourth lines are "very unimportant."

But to play your game, no. Beyond top-level elite talent, all components of a successful team are equally important. That's basically the definition of a team, which the Canucks should be educating you about by now. Fourth lines help define the identity and culture of a team, which is why Berube was starting Finals games with his fourth line last year. I believe Boston's fourth line also started some games against us in 2011. They also provide energy to the bench, and in the case of Motte, can agitate and throw other players' off their games with relentless pressure. No matter how much you take some obscure stat and torture it relentlessly into an "argument" about Brendan Gaunce actually being good, he will never be better than Tyler Motte. Admit it.

Your question is like asking what's the more important part of a plane, the wings or the engine or the cockpit? Um...

Dont spend too much time on the old Curmudgeon, he thinks its 1992 and you can still throw any ahl block heads out there on a fourth line just to eat up some time. The fact that Motte was a key contributor in the series, a contributor which the blues did not to have an equivalent to on their bottom two lines, and as a result gave the Canucks an advantage seems to go over his head. Fourth liners are the least important part of the team....just like one of your kidneys is the least important organ I suppose.

Here we are a day after the Canucks beat the defending champs in convincing fashion and he is still carrying on about cap space and other hot air.

I got to give him credit though, he tries and he is still sticking to his guns. Lots of the other more infamous posters have seemingly disappeared now that the team they supposedly cheer for is in the final 8 of the stanley cup playoffs. Maybe someone should revive the Linden Vey thread, or "we should have got a 4th round pick for Vanek" posts to make these guys feel better.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Dont spend too much time on the old Curmudgeon, he thinks its 1992 and you can still throw any ahl block heads out there on a fourth line just to eat up some time. The fact that Motte was a key contributor in the series, a contributor which the blues did not to have an equivalent to on their bottom two lines, and as a result gave the Canucks an advantage seems to go over his head. Fourth liners are the least important part of the team....just like one of your kidneys is the least important organ I suppose.

Here we are a day after the Canucks beat the defending champs in convincing fashion and he is still carrying on about cap space and other hot air.

I got to give him credit though, he tries and he is still sticking to his guns. Lots of the other more infamous posters have seemingly disappeared now that the team they supposedly cheer for is in the final 8 of the stanley cup playoffs. Maybe someone should revive the Linden Vey thread, or "we should have got a 4th round pick for Vanek" posts to make these guys feel better.

He's basically 'tripling' down at this point, and getting completely carved...To each their own, I guess.

 

[MS]

He's basically 'tripling' down at this point, and getting completely carved...To each their own, I guess.

Do you think the last 2 games from the 4th line are representative of the level of play we received from them for the last two years, when they were outscored by a 2:1 ratio and absolutely caved in?

What are your thoughts on sample size?

Do you think Tyler Motte scoring a few goals as a $900k scrap heap rescue does anything at all do disprove the notion that overpaying for 4th liners is a bad idea? Or does it prove the exact opposite point?

 

[VanJack]

Just imagine how good the Canucks record would have been this season, if they'd been able to get the third and fourth line production they got in the last two games against the Blues? Certainly the Canucks are paying enough money for depth forwards to score a lot more.

Have to feel good for Motte....has a relentless motor, pressuring the puck carrier all over the ice. Kills penalties, fearlessly blocks shots and underrated offensively. Just turned 25, so he has some productive seasons ahead of him.

 

[strattonius]

What would have been better, paying Gaunce $800k or paying Tim Schaller $2 million to do a far worse job playing the same role?

These LOL GAUNCE posts are frankly embarrassing for the people making them as they show that they a) don’t actually understand the argument being made and b) don’t understand the dynamics of a capped league.

Wrong on that comparison again - you take a lousy 4th liner and try to conflate the argument. I already called you out on that earlier.

We are talking Tyler Motte here, not Tim Schaller.

 

[Pip]

Wrong on that comparison again - you take a lousy 4th liner and try to conflate the argument. I already called you out on that earlier.

We are talking Tyler Motte here, not Tim Schaller.

Tim Schaller was good with Boston then fell off here. The margin is so small with fourth line players that any drop off in performance makes them non-NHLers. A good reason to never give them to a fourth line player.