The Official Horrible Trade Proposals Thread Part 4: Shots, Shots, Shots, Shots, Shots EVERYBODY!!!

[Tryamw]

Bumping in case Nylander mess over...

 

[Unsustainable]

Thoughts on paying Detroit to take Darling and bring in Howard?

 

[A Star is Burns]

I don't love Howard, but it'd be an upgrade most likely. I wish we could find someone younger to target. As with anything, it depends on the price to both acquire a decent Howard, and to get Detroit to eat 2.5 years of suck.

 

[Unsustainable]

I don't love Howard, but it'd be an upgrade most likely. I wish we could find someone younger to target. As with anything, it depends on the price to both acquire a decent Howard, and to get Detroit to eat 2.5 years of suck.

Varly or Bob are the 2 legit starters coming up. Gotta pay for them

 

[A Star is Burns]

Varly or Bob are the 2 legit starters coming up. Gotta pay for them

As I mentioned in the other thread, maybe we don't need the legit starter guy (though we all want to see it after all we've been through), but the right style. This team has played better in front of calm goalies for some time for the most part (even if that calm goalie, mostly Cam, didn't always hold up their end). The guys we've run through in recent years that the team didn't look good in front of aren't exactly the calmest netminders in the world: Lack, Darling, Mrazek, Khudobin. They have looked pretty good generally in front of Cam and McElhinney. Maybe we just need that type, but younger and better.

 

[Joe McGrath]

As I mentioned in the other thread, maybe we don't need the legit starter guy (though we all want to see it after all we've been through), but the right style. This team has played better in front of calm goalies for some time for the most part (even if that calm goalie, mostly Cam, didn't always hold up their end). The guys we've run through in recent years that the team didn't look good in front of aren't exactly the calmest netminders in the world: Lack, Darling, Mrazek, Khudobin. They have looked pretty good generally in front of Cam and McElhinney. Maybe we just need that type, but younger and better.

Does that type exist, younger and better?

Schneider used to be that. f*** knows what happened to him.

 

[AD Skinner]

I think Ward was that even when he was younger, but that's a pretty rare breed. That level of confidence is likely pretty hard to come by in young players regardless of position. I don't want to armchair psychoanalyze but I think that personality of quiet calm confident is a huge boost to the rest of the team. Khudobin and Lack were class clowns, I can only glean bits of darlings personality but I don't think he inspires confidence with his play or demeanor. I wonder if the goalie's attitude, especially for a young team like this, might be just as important as his skill level

 

[geehaad]

FWIW (very little, admittedly), my take on this is that the goaltender's calm is of no value to his teammates, and they don't play better/worse based on how he approaches the game. They are out there to run the system, which may or may not include doing what they can to prevent shots from getting to the goaltender...but what happens after properly executing within the system is beyond them. Now...having said that, I do believe that a calm goaltender is a better one, and *that* is the reason for which we should desire one. But this business of it affecting the skater's play is a reach.

Case in point: this exact moment in time. Lest you forget, the team's play in front of Mac has been pretty underwhelming during his streak of starting games. If you were correct in your hypothesis, the skaters would appear to be playing better as of late. Maybe I'm not reading y'all correctly, but it seems to me the comments on this board would suggest that we're unhappy with the play of the skaters atm.

However, a goaltender's calm absolutely has an effect on spectators, so it's my opinion that y'all are projecting your anxiety onto the players. And that's it...it's your own well-being that's affected...nothing more. And yes, at times the skaters are spectators too, and they might be anxious as they see pandemonium in the crease, but I don't think it does a thing to influence how they play the game in front of him.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

FWIW (very little, admittedly), my take on this is that the goaltender's calm is of no value to his teammates, and they don't play better/worse based on how he approaches the game. They are out there to run the system, which may or may not include doing what they can to prevent shots from getting to the goaltender...but what happens after properly executing within the system is beyond them. Now...having said that, I do believe that a calm goaltender is a better one, and *that* is the reason for which we should desire one. But this business of it affecting the skater's play is a reach.

Case in point: this exact moment in time. Lest you forget, the team's play in front of Mac has been pretty underwhelming during his streak of starting games. If you were correct in your hypothesis, the skaters would appear to be playing better as of late. Maybe I'm not reading y'all correctly, but it seems to me the comments on this board would suggest that we're unhappy with the play of the skaters atm.

However, a goaltender's calm absolutely has an effect on spectators, so it's my opinion that y'all are projecting your anxiety onto the players. And that's it...it's your own well-being that's affected...nothing more. And yes, at times the skaters are spectators too, and they might be anxious as they see pandemonium in the crease, but I don't think it does a thing to influence how they play the game in front of him.

People who analyze the team for a living uniformly disagree with you, for whatever that's worth.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I agree with @geehaad for what it's worth. For one thing, Cam Ward is getting grouped with McElhinney as the "calm" goalies, but Cam was pretty bad for most of his career here.

I think we've made way, way, way too much of goalie styles over the years attempting to rationalize why all goalies who come here suck. But in the end, it comes down to stopping pucks and focusing on the next play.

The style stuff was crap from the beginning and it's still crap now. Make a freakin save is all that matters.

 

[Primetime8]

I agree with @geehaad for what it's worth. For one thing, Cam Ward is getting grouped with McElhinney as the "calm" goalies, but Cam was pretty bad for most of his career here.

I think we've made way, way, way too much of goalie styles over the years attempting to rationalize why all goalies who come here suck. But in the end, it comes down to stopping pucks and focusing on the next play.

The style stuff was crap from the beginning and it's still cheap now. Make a freakin save is all that matters.

False

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

It depends what you mean by calm. Most of what people refer to as “calm” ends up meaning “good rebound control”, which absolutely has an effect on the team. Another thing that people refer to as “calm” is staying within your net to make saves. This also matters to the team, because defensemen know they don’t have to go all Faulk every play and end up playing goalie. Every time a defenseman has to think about playing goalie himself, he has to lose his man to do it. That matters.

But if by “calm” we literally just mean Tripp saying “look at those compact saves, he barely moved, look at him!”, Dominik Hasek, Arturs Irbe, even Marty Brodeur to an extent have a few things to say about calm being better.

 

[MinJaBen]

It depends what you mean by calm. Most of what people refer to as “calm” ends up meaning “good rebound control”, which absolutely has an effect on the team. Another thing that people refer to as “calm” is staying within your net to make saves. This also matters to the team, because defensemen know they don’t have to go all Faulk every play and end up playing goalie. Every time a defenseman has to think about playing goalie himself, he has to lose his man to do it. That matters.

But if by “calm” we literally just mean Tripp saying “look at those compact saves, he barely moved, look at him!”, Dominik Hasek, Arturs Irbe, even Marty Brodeur to an extent have a few things to say about calm being better.

I've always thought of calm as not losing positioning consistently. I think both McBackup and Ward were good at that, while Darling is horrible and Mrazek is not great.

 

[geehaad]

FWIW (very little, admittedly), my take on this is that the goaltender's calm is of no value to his teammates, and they don't play better/worse based on how he approaches the game. They are out there to run the system, which may or may not include doing what they can to prevent shots from getting to the goaltender...but what happens after properly executing within the system is beyond them. Now...having said that, I do believe that a calm goaltender is a better one, and *that* is the reason for which we should desire one. But this business of it affecting the skater's play is a reach.

Admittedly it was a long post...just making sure y'all didn't miss this important piece.

People who analyze the team for a living uniformly disagree with you, for whatever that's worth.

Any analysis that doesn't take into consideration the *actual evidence* of the last few games is worthless. The skaters aren't playing better...Mac is. Furthermore, I remember many times in this board's history where failing to score goals was attributed to having a lack of confidence in the goaltender. Clearly that, too, is bullshit, these games as evidence.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Admittedly it was a long post...just making sure y'all didn't miss this important piece.

I think your clarification hurts your point. I don't believe a calm goalie is a better one. Some of the best goalies in NHL history played like their hair was on fire. Patrick Roy made goalie fights a thing. Dominik Hasek made saves with his mask -- on purpose. And of course, Ken Dryden just played goal for a few years because he was too young to run for parliament.

Goalie "styles" and personalities are all over the map. The successful ones prevent pucks from going into the net. The unsuccessful ones don't. I prefer the ones who do, and I care very little how they go about it.

Any analysis that doesn't take into consideration the *actual evidence* of the last few games is worthless. The skaters aren't playing better...Mac is. Furthermore, I remember many times in this board's history where failing to score goals was attributed to having a lack of confidence in the goaltender. Clearly that, too, is bull****, these games as evidence.

Exactly.

 

[geehaad]

I think your clarification hurts your point.

Perhaps. I might be labeling particular characteristics as "calm" that you might not...example: not getting down on oneself for allowing a goal, movements that are "compact" and precise so as to not over-commit to any given threat such that it leaves you vulnerable to puck movement (e.g. Darling blowing out past the goalpost), not making the first move when a shooter has you lined up (i.e. breakaway situations, etc).

I see those as "calm" and characteristics of a strong goaltender.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I see those as "calm" and characteristics of a strong goaltender.

Yeah, I see the main characteristic of a strong goaltender is not allowing goals. I could give a rat's ass if he's calm or not.

 

[Boud]

What do you guys thinks of

Mikkel Boedker

Vs

Trevor Van Riemsdyk.

Boedker gives more stability in the top 9, could replace Foegele/McGinn on 2nd LW.

TVR gives us more depth on back end.

 

[WreckingCrew]

What do you guys thinks of

Mikkel Boedker

Vs

Trevor Van Riemsdyk.

Boedker gives more stability in the top 9, could replace Foegele/McGinn on 2nd LW.

TVR gives us more depth on back end.

Meh? A 30 point forward sign for $4M/yr through next season...much rather keep TVR

 

[SaskCanesFan]

I think your clarification hurts your point. I don't believe a calm goalie is a better one. Some of the best goalies in NHL history played like their hair was on fire. Patrick Roy made goalie fights a thing. Dominik Hasek made saves with his mask -- on purpose. And of course, Ken Dryden just played goal for a few years because he was too young to run for parliament.

Goalie "styles" and personalities are all over the map. The successful ones prevent pucks from going into the net. The unsuccessful ones don't. I prefer the ones who do, and I care very little how they go about it.

And I'd say your point is hurt by referencing goalies that played between 10 and 40 years ago. With not only how much the game has changed, but the position as well. That's like saying you don't care if a goalie has to make kick saves all game because it worked in Drydens day. It doesn't have any bearing today.

 

[My Special Purpose]

What do you guys thinks of

Mikkel Boedker

Vs

Trevor Van Riemsdyk.

Boedker gives more stability in the top 9, could replace Foegele/McGinn on 2nd LW.

TVR gives us more depth on back end.

I think it's fine. But, here's the deal for the uninitiated:

We currently have four NHL-quality RDs (Hamilton, Pesce, Faulk, TvR). Our greatest need is a scoring center (assuming the goaltending is on the back burner 'til the offseason). So we need to move one of our RDs in a trade for a center. I think we get the better player in a Boedker/TvR trade, but if we use our depth at RD on another winger, it solves nothing for us. We already have quality wingers being made less than they are by piss-poor center play.

So tl;dr, it's not a bad trade from a value standpoint, but it's not a move the Canes are able to make. We've got one trade in us, trading from our strength, and we simply can't use it to trade for another winger.

 

[Boud]

Meh? A 30 point forward sign for $4M/yr through next season...much rather keep TVR

That's fair. Although I think you're selling him short.

He's been on a 40 point pace for the last 100 games he's played (49 points in last 99 games played).

In his last 8 seasons he has 231 points in 435 games. That's a 43 point pace per 82 over 8 years. He's been a pretty consistently on a 40 point pace.

Would definitely be an upgrade for you guys over McGinn at this point. I would try to play him with Svechnikov maybe, he's a big body and good passer, he could get him the puck. 4M is pretty much what you pay for these players nowadays (Even look at guys like Komarov, Roussel, Beagle). If it really needed to be done I would retain salary so that both teams end up paying the same amount but realistically the value is probably similar (IMO) with their respective salaries.

 

[Primetime8]

That's fair. Although I think you're selling him short.

He's been on a 40 point pace for the last 100 games he's played (49 points in last 99 games played).

In his last 8 seasons he has 231 points in 435 games. That's a 43 point pace per 82 over 8 years. He's been a pretty consistently on a 40 point pace.

Would definitely be an upgrade for you guys over McGinn at this point. I would try to play him with Svechnikov maybe, he's a big body and good passer, he could get him the puck. 4M is pretty much what you pay for these players nowadays (Even look at guys like Komarov, Roussel, Beagle). If it really needed to be done I would retain salary so that both teams end up paying the same amount but realistically the value is probably similar (IMO) with their respective salaries.

Not sure about that. McGinn had 30 points last year and led the league in goal posts hit. He brings a decent 2 way game and physicality.

I'm not saying your trade is bad, but I would be upset if it happened

 

[Boud]

Not sure about that. McGinn had 30 points last year and led the league in goal posts hit. He brings a decent 2 way game and physicality.

I'm not saying your trade is bad, but I would be upset if it happened

Honestly wasn't aware he had 16 goals and 30 points last year! That's good for you guys... I can see why you wouldn't be thrilled of a TVR for Boedker trade in this case if McGinn can keep it up.

Would you do:

Condon
Boedker/Smith

vs

Darling
TVR

Condon makes less and has one year less.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Honestly wasn't aware he had 16 goals and 30 points last year! That's good for you guys... I can see why you wouldn't be thrilled of a TVR for Boedker trade in this case if McGinn can keep it up.

Would you do:

Condon
Boedker/Smith

vs

Darling
TVR

Condon makes less and has one year less.

Ignoring my very well thought-out and perfectly expressed first post on the matter (as you are), not only does this deal not address the one thing any Hurricanes trade at this point *must* address (scoring at center ice), it also ignores that your dolt of a GM has already made it clear he will not trade within the conference, even if it means another team being allowed to turn a profit merely serving as a go-between (see Sharks, San Jose). So I don't get what we're doing here.