Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer | The grind it out phase | Moar 3C Talk!

[TimmyD]

I really think JR us hunting for a bigger name (Duchene,Bozak level). I just can't imagine a team is going to trade us a 3c for Scott Wilson because I don't think he is really all that valuable

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I really think JR us hunting for a bigger name (Duchene,Bozak level). I just can't imagine a team is going to trade us a 3c for Scott Wilson because I don't think he is really all that valuable

I think he's just waiting out GMs to get the right price for whatever he's after and I doubt it's a big name. He'll get someone good for the cap who will be here's for awhile.

 

[captain cubicle]

Just a hunch, I think a 61 game sample size is a lot more logical to lean on than a 22 game cold streak. Just a hunch though.

The thing you're ignoring here is what trading Sheary would do down the lineup. Let's only talk about Duchene because the idea of trading Sheary for Bozak or Ryan ****ing Spooner is just nonsense. If you trade Sheary and whatever else it takes for Duchene (let's pretend it's only futures and not Maatta, when it would likely be required to have both), you have no more cap space available, Wilson is on your 3rd line when everyone is healthy and your 4th line is on caliber with what it was under Bylsma (aka bad). Your depth goes from the reason you won 2 straight cups to poor. If Sprong would come in and show he can play in the top-9, which I do think he'll be able to do next season, that lessens the blow, but your depth would still be worse with Sprong than it would be if you kept Sheary and instead traded say Wilson for an okay 3C.

Basically, trading Sheary for a 3C is just absolute overkill. If you want a great 3C, just start throwing futures at Toronto for Bozak. Spooner is just an awful option, I'd sooner go out and sign "relapsed into alcoholism" Ribiero before I'd trade for Spooner.

Both are small sample sizes. My point is we haven't seen enough of Sheary to know for sure what kind of player he is going to be production wise the rest of his career. Its an unknown.

I am not suggesting we trade him if we dont have to. What I am suggesting is that if the choice is between Sheary and a good 3C I think the good 3C is a no brainier. Perharps Spooner was a bad example but if were talking Bozak if he had term left on his deal, TJ, or Duchene thats an easy call. If Bozak was so easy to acquire whats JR waiting for? We also need to send salary because right now were sitting at 3.2 in cap space so someone has to go the other way.

Our winger depth without Sheary is far better than our center depth without a 3C. Our center depth was just as important as our winger depth in the cup runs. We won because of FORWARD depth.


Without Sheary your looking at this

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornquvist
Rust-Malkin-(Kessel/Sprong)
Haglin-(TJ,MD,TB)-(Kessel/Sprong)
Wilson-Rowney-Reaves

vs

Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Rust-Malkin-(Kessel/Sprong)
Haglin-Rowney-(Kessel/Sprong)
Archy-Wilson-Reaves

I know which team I would rather match up against if I only have 2 legit pairings or if one of sid/malkin goes down.

 

[TimmyD]

I think he's just waiting out GMs to get the right price for whatever he's after and I doubt it's a big name. He'll get someone good for the cap who will be here's for awhile.

But again I still feel like he is going to have to give upore then Scott Wilson to get that piece. We are going to be sending something of more value out at least in my opinion

 

[Empoleon8771]

I really think JR us hunting for a bigger name (Duchene,Bozak level). I just can't imagine a team is going to trade us a 3c for Scott Wilson because I don't think he is really all that valuable

We've had this discussion a couple times on here, I think Wilson actually has decent value. His resume is pretty strong overall, I don't think he's much less valuable than say Zach Hyman. The issue is that teams usually have guys like Wilson already, but I think you could probably find a team like the 2014 Penguins that would love to add Wilson to their 3rd line. I don't think Wilson would pull off a guy like Haula, but I do think he'd pull off a good enough 3C that could be effective here with Kessel.

Both are small sample sizes. My point is we haven't seen enough of Sheary to know for sure what kind of player he is going to be production wise the rest of his career. Its an unknown.

I am not suggesting we trade him if we dont have to. What I am suggesting is that if the choice is between Sheary and a good 3C I think the good 3C is a no brainier. Perharps Spooner was a bad example but if were talking Bozak if he had term left on his deal, TJ, or Duchene thats an easy call. If Bozak was so easy to acquire whats JR waiting for? We also need to send salary because right now were sitting at 3.2 in cap space so someone has to go the other way.

Our winger depth without Sheary is far better than our center depth without a 3C. Our center depth was just as important as our winger depth in the cup runs. We won because of FORWARD depth.


Without Sheary your looking at this

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornquvist
Rust-Malkin-(Kessel/Sprong)
Haglin-(TJ,MD,TB)-(Kessel/Sprong)
Wilson-Rowney-Reaves

vs

Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Rust-Malkin-(Kessel/Sprong)
Haglin-Rowney-(Kessel/Sprong)
Archy-Wilson-Reaves

I know which team I would rather match up against if I only have 2 legit pairings or if one of sid/malkin goes down.

Why are you comparing trading Sheary for a 3C to not trading for a 3C? That's just a completely unfair comparison.

 

[TimmyD]

We've had this discussion a couple times on here, I think Wilson actually has decent value. His resume is pretty strong overall, I don't think he's much less valuable than say Zach Hyman. The issue is that teams usually have guys like Wilson already, but I think you could probably find a team like the 2014 Penguins that would love to add Wilson to their 3rd line. I don't think Wilson would pull off a guy like Haula, but I do think he'd pull off a good enough 3C that could be effective here with Kessel.



Why are you comparing trading Sheary for a 3C to not trading for a 3C? That's just a completely unfair comparison.

But if a team is acquiring him to play him on their third line why are they sending us back a 3c which would then break up the line Wilson was acquired to play on? I can't see him alone getting us a good 3c. He could be a piece but not just by himself

 

[Empoleon8771]

But if a team is acquiring him to play him on their third line why are they sending us back a 3c which would then break up the line Wilson was acquired to play on? I can't see him alone getting us a good 3c. He could be a piece but not just by himself

In this scenario, I imagine there would be a team that has a 3rd line center caliber player playing as their 4C, but they want to improve their wing depth some. Someone like Riley Sheahan would fit that bill for example. The team wouldn't be trading their current 3C for Wilson, they'd be trading a 3C caliber player that's not playing 3C for Wilson. Guys like Larsson/Girgensons, Shore and Sheahan just off the top of my head fit into that category.

I actually think Wilson for Girgensons or Larsson would be a pretty reasonable deal to suggest. Girgensons once upon a time was an all star and a great 3C, but he was straight up awful under Bylsma.

 

[captain cubicle]

We've had this discussion a couple times on here, I think Wilson actually has decent value. His resume is pretty strong overall, I don't think he's much less valuable than say Zach Hyman. The issue is that teams usually have guys like Wilson already, but I think you could probably find a team like the 2014 Penguins that would love to add Wilson to their 3rd line. I don't think Wilson would pull off a guy like Haula, but I do think he'd pull off a good enough 3C that could be effective here with Kessel.



Why are you comparing trading Sheary for a 3C to not trading for a 3C? That's just a completely unfair comparison.

You stated that Sheary helps the team more than Duchene. I disagree with that premise and go a step further to say Sheary doesn't help the team more than several other 3cs which I mentioned (TJ, and Bozak). If those players are available for the price of Sheary, which I dont think is the case I would make the trade in a heartbeat. Absent an impact 3c being available I would not trade Sheary.

 

[TimmyD]

In this scenario, I imagine there would be a team that has a 3rd line center caliber player playing as their 4C, but they want to improve their wing depth some. Someone like Riley Sheahan would fit that bill for example. The team wouldn't be trading their current 3C for Wilson, they'd be trading a 3C caliber player that's not playing 3C for Wilson. Guys like Larsson/Girgensons, Shore and Sheahan just off the top of my head fit into that category.

I actually think Wilson for Girgensons or Larsson would be a pretty reasonable deal to suggest. Girgensons once upon a time was an all star and a great 3C, but he was straight up awful under Bylsma.

I just honestly don't think any of those guys are good. The best would be Gigensons but if he doesn't bounce back that leaves in a pretty rough spot

 

[Speaking Moistly]

But again I still feel like he is going to have to give upore then Scott Wilson to get that piece. We are going to be sending something of more value out at least in my opinion

Who knows what he'll give up but there's a vast difference between Wilson and whatever Sakic deems acceptable for Duchene. Wilson + 2nd could probably get something decent but I wouldn't be surprised if JR tried to keep roster players.

Wilson put up 26 points as a rookie largely on the fourth line and the Pens used him on L2 in the final. I'd bet he's got some decent value.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just honestly don't think any of those guys are good. The best would be Gigensons but if he doesn't bounce back that leaves in a pretty rough spot

Shore's a really good option, but with the moves Dallas made this offseason, they're probably not looking to make any trades currently. I think if you'd make your 3rd line Rust-Girgensons-Kessel, you'd have no issues with that line. I do think that's something that could happen and benefit both teams. Botterill obviously is very familiar with Wilson since he was the WBS GM and was with him in Pittsburgh and the Sabres are pretty weak at LW overall on their roster. They have Kane and that's about it. They could do that trade and run with this as their top-9:

Kane-Eichel-Reinhart
Wilson-ROR-Okposo
Pouliot-Larsson-Pominville

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So hypothetically speaking, you wouldn't move Sheary as the main piece (as in not Maatta, Sprong, ZAR as other pieces in deal) for Duchene?

As much as I'd love to have Duchene, nah, I wouldn't.

To me it's worth seeing if Sheary can consistently play/produce something like he did last regular season. If we got that every year for 3 years at 3 mil per, I'd hate to have lost it even for Duchene.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Sheary signing that 3 year deal assures he opens the season on the team and won't get traded this year without some really bad play for an extended time or a absolutely unpassable trade offer from another team... gms are loathe to sign and trade without the players approval cause it sends a terrible message... just drop sheary from all trade talk... its not happening...

Thank you.

If JR trades Sheary, that's completely bad faith. Leaves a bad taste with other players and gives you a poor reputation as a GM

 

[Darth Vitale]

Why do I have this nagging feeling Rurtherford is still scheming / trying to figure out a way to pull off a big trade? No logical reason to believe it but somehow... I feel like we're not done here / not going to go sign some mediocre player to fit under the cap.

Not talking a Duchene trade but maybe someone else recently signed or otherwise signed to a decent contract who nobody is paying attention to.

 

[davemess]

I do think that's something that could happen and benefit both teams. Botterill obviously is very familiar with Wilson since he was the WBS GM and was with him in Pittsburgh and the Sabres are pretty weak at LW overall on their roster.

A deal with Buffalo makes a lot of sense imo, whether its for Girgensons or Johan Larsson.

 

[The Old Master]

In this scenario, I imagine there would be a team that has a 3rd line center caliber player playing as their 4C, but they want to improve their wing depth some. Someone like Riley Sheahan would fit that bill for example. The team wouldn't be trading their current 3C for Wilson, they'd be trading a 3C caliber player that's not playing 3C for Wilson. Guys like Larsson/Girgensons, Shore and Sheahan just off the top of my head fit into that category.

I actually think Wilson for Girgensons or Larsson would be a pretty reasonable deal to suggest. Girgensons once upon a time was an all star and a great 3C, but he was straight up awful under Bylsma.

or how about a 3c with a high up side. playing wing because the team is loaded at center(wings) and sheary would be their top wing...

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If we get Bozak, I'd hope it's a trade where JR has been able to talk to Bozak's agent to get an extension signed (something like 3.5m/yr for 4yrs) or something.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

A deal with Buffalo makes a lot of sense imo, whether its for Girgensons or Johan Larsson.

Larsson maybe if we didn't have Rowney, but never for the 3rd line. If Larsson is our 3rd line C, we're ****ed.

 

[Empoleon8771]

or how about a 3c with a high up side. playing wing because the team is loaded at center(wings) and sheary would be their top wing...

I'm guessing you're talking about Reinhart, but I can basically guarantee that wouldn't work

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Why do I have this nagging feeling Rurtherford is still scheming / trying to figure out a way to pull off a big trade? No logical reason to believe it but somehow... I feel like we're not done here / not going to go sign some mediocre player to fit under the cap.

Not talking a Duchene trade but maybe someone else recently signed or otherwise signed to a decent contract who nobody is paying attention to.

Because JR seems to always be trying to make a splash.

Neal for Hornqvist
Kessel trade
Tried to get Shattenkirk and/or Duchene at the TDL. Dodged a ****ing bullet.

I just think something huge didn't come close to happening and he moved on. A Duchene trade probably died when Letang needed surgery and Sakic thought he should get half the damn team for Duchene. RNH is a year from being a cap casualty, Galchenyuk is questionable as a C and they need to add centres.

For the record, I still think he's waiting for Florida to retain on Bjugstad. Their internal cap and inability to move Demers as motivating factors. A younger guy with a history of success and some optimistic upside coming off a bad season with three years left.

 

[KIRK]

Why do I have this nagging feeling Rurtherford is still scheming / trying to figure out a way to pull off a big trade? No logical reason to believe it but somehow... I feel like we're not done here / not going to go sign some mediocre player to fit under the cap.

Not talking a Duchene trade but maybe someone else recently signed or otherwise signed to a decent contract who nobody is paying attention to.

Because you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

 

[Darth Vitale]

vabm8: Yeah that would work. And I think you're right about JR. He's conditioned me to be less cynical than I used to be about trades. heh

KIRK: so you're saying old man Rutherford not trading would be a new trick... right? Right?!

 

[KIRK]

vabm8: Yeah that would work. And I think you're right about JR. He's conditioned me to be less cynical than I used to be about trades. heh

KIRK: so you're saying old man Rutherford not trading would be a new trick... right? Right?!

I'm saying it's my understanding that JR isn't interested in some of the bottom feeding names being bandied about here as the next big thing.

My 'gut'-- and it's pure gut-- says it would be Bozak, but the Leafs have to move someone to center if they do that. Eh, we'll see . . . I'll just be shocked if it's one of the garbage names who pop up every few pages in these threads.

 

[davemess]

Larsson maybe if we didn't have Rowney, but never for the 3rd line. If Larsson is our 3rd line C, we're ****ed.

I think he would be worth taking a gamble on as the 3rd line C, has a fair amount going for him imo.

He wouldn't be expensive to acquire via trade.

I think he has room to grow offensively if given the opportunity (he was limited to a very Defensive role last 2 years). The fact he has less than 200 NHL games played also gives me some encouragement there is still growth to come from his offensive game.

Salary wise he is only at $1,475,000 AVV for the next 2 years, so not a massive drain (and leaves enough money to pay Cullen if he comes back).

And if he doesn't work out as your 3C? He would still be worth his money playing as a defensive forward either on the wing or as the 4th C.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Bozak would be a nice guy to acquire, but I can't imagine it would be that likely. I think other teams would outbid the Penguins for him and I don't even know how willing Toronto would be to trade him. I think they'll be quite content with having Matthews-Kadri-Bozak as their top-9 centers. I don't think it's an issue of Nylander not being able to play center at the NHL level yet, I think it's an issue of not wanting to hurt your RW depth just in the name of asset management.

If Nylander gets moved to center, the Leafs RWers would be Marner, Brown, Kapanen and Hyman. That's a really solid young group, but Marner and Brown are at risk of regressing from what they did last year and it's no guarantee that either Kapanen or Hyman end up much of anything.