I think Duchene or RNH would both help more. Moot point though as neither would be affordable to acquire.
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I think Duchene or RNH would both help more. Moot point though as neither would be affordable to acquire.
SprootsMasterFlex
Sprootsing 4 Life
HandshakeLine
A real jerk thing
Kovalev's gonna get here any... day... now!
Over here Czech newspapers and media are going crazy about Jagr possibly talking to Buffalo. Mostly, they're trying to figure out where Buffalo is, and why they are known for their chicken wings. But, I'm impressed, that's overachieving for some of the sports tabloids.
I said IF he can't complete a trade for someone who is a worthwhile 3C by the season's start. I'd rather see what we have if he can't get someone good, than just trade for someone else who's more of a 4C and think our 3C issues are solved.
My actual preference is to shoot for Duchene, Bozak etc, and few of other quality names thrown around here. If we have to wait in season to complete a trade for a good offensive 3C, then I'd rather try out what we have already. Not an inconsistent position
Big McLargehuge
Fragile Traveler
Over here Czech newspapers and media are going crazy about Jagr possibly talking to Buffalo. Mostly, they're trying to figure out where Buffalo is, and why they are known for their chicken wings. But, I'm impressed, that's overachieving for some of the sports tabloids.
Good God, it's basically been a generation since Hašek played there.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
No they wouldn't, Sheary getting 60 points on the top line helps more than Duchene maybe cracking 50 and RNH not even cracking 45 on the 3rd line.
HandshakeLine
A real jerk thing
I know. It makes me die a little inside every time.
I had a particularly amazing conversation with a cabdriver last night on those same lines, and his response was that, of course he knew where Buffalo was! It was right next to Chicago, but in Canada. And then proceeded to get annoyed at his GPS system and insisted that I didn't know my way around Prague because I wasn't born there. Prazaci!
But I really don't see Jagr lasting much longer, especially if he's basically down to going to bottom feeders to be a name on the marquee and not much else. I'd put money on him hanging them up next year or going back to the Extraliga for one last hurrah. But then again, I also haven't seen any non-Czech confirmation of that Jagr rumor, so who knows?
Shady Machine
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Oh my really?
I'm sorry but this is absurd. If you are suggesting that Sheary at 3MM brings more value per dollar than Duchene at 6MM, then you might have an argument. But suggesting that Sheary would be more valuable on the ice vs Duchene is bat **** crazy.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
How is it bat **** crazy? Sheary on the top line does more to help the Penguins win than Duchene on the 3rd line, unless Duchene can put up close to as many points on the 3rd line as Sheary can score on the top line.
Harvey Birdman
…Need some law books, with pictures this time…
Yea I am sorry, I am agreeing with Shady on this. While I think Duchene being a Penguin isn't happening based just on what Sakic is trying to ask for in a trade and JR I do not believe will part with it. Overall over the course of a season, even if he was only used as a 3C and never as a winger. Duchene would bring a lot more to the table as a 3C than Sheary bring as a winger. Even with Rowney shoring up the 4th line we would have top 3 at a minimum center depth. We would be 1A, 1A, 1B/2A in terms of center depth. Outside of Guentzel, Kessel, and Hornqvist no winger on this team would have that type of over a season roster impact.
Now... Will Duchene be a Penguin, highly doubtful in my eyes, so the point it moot. But I very much disagree with you. I wont call you bat ****...
Just very much disagree.
What about Horny getting 50 points on the first line and having a center capable of filling in for Sid or Geno for long stretches?
I completely disagree. I would take Duchene over Sheary in a heartbeat. I would bet everything I own JR and every GM and coach in the NHL would as well.
madinsomniac
Registered User
Sheary signing that 3 year deal assures he opens the season on the team and won't get traded this year without some really bad play for an extended time or a absolutely unpassable trade offer from another team... gms are loathe to sign and trade without the players approval cause it sends a terrible message... just drop sheary from all trade talk... its not happening...
Speaking Moistly
What a terrible image.
The thing is that they're not 3Cs or they're not supposed to be. It would be an interesting comparison since those two wouldn't be put in a prime offensive situation and both need to rebound. Sheary is coming off a highly productive season and did it with limited pp time and is half the price.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I genuinely don't think Hornqvist would see any significant change in production with playing with Sid vs playing on either the 2nd or 3rd line. He's produced at an extremely consistent rate over his career.
It's not Duchene vs Sheary, it's Sheary on the top line or Duchene on the 3rd line. I'd rather have Sheary on the top line because he'd almost definitely produce more than Duchene would on the 3rd line. I would not trade a top line winger for a 3C, regardless of what names we're using there. A 3C just won't help the Penguins as much as a top line winger would, which is what Sheary is here with Crosby.
Yea I am sorry, I am agreeing with Shady on this. While I think Duchene being a Penguin isn't happening based just on what Sakic is trying to ask for in a trade and JR I do not believe will part with it. Overall over the course of a season, even if he was only used as a 3C and never as a winger. Duchene would bring a lot more to the table as a 3C than Sheary bring as a winger. Even with Rowney shoring up the 4th line we would have top 3 at a minimum center depth. We would be 1A, 1A, 1B/2A in terms of center depth. Outside of Guentzel, Kessel, and Hornqvist no winger on this team would have that type of over a season roster impact.
Now... Will Duchene be a Penguin, highly doubtful in my eyes, so the point it moot. But I very much disagree with you. I wont call you bat ****...
Duchene brings more to the table because he's a better player, but I still think Sheary on a top line role would help the Penguins more than Duchene on a 3rd line role would. In a completely ideal world, my lineup would look something like this by the end of the season:
Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Sprong-Malkin-Hornqvist
Rust-3C-Kessel
Hagelin-Cullen-Reaves
In this, you'd trade Wilson for a 3C. The big advantage of playing Duchene as the 3rd line center would be it makes the 3rd line dangerous offensively without having to put Kessel there, but I think Kessel should be on the 3rd line. Now, if Kessel is in the top-6, that's a little different, but I think Kessel on the 3rd line makes it plenty dangerous offensively. It just comes down to me thinking it's overkill to trade Sheary for a 3C and I think Sheary on the top line would help more than any 3C the Penguins could get.
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Shady Machine
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For one, we don't even know if Sheary will be on the top line all year. As we saw in the playoffs, things will change. Horny will likely get significant time with Sid as well. Is Sheary as a 3rd line winger more valuable than Duchene?
Secondly, Duchene is a known proven commodity. Sheary had 1 big season, with a poor to mediocre playoffs. There are still questions around consistency. Duchene had a down season, but history suggests he will be materially better moving forward.
Third, we need a 3rd line center and Duchene is a hell of a player for that role. If we need to move him up to 1st line winger, he's better than Sheary. If Sid or Geno are injured, he slides up and fills in really well as a top 6 center.
We have plenty of depth on the wings to make up for Sheary's loss. We don't have any center depth.
I'm not saying I want to trade Sheary, but if he was the major piece for Duchene, I'd gladly pull the trigger.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Why wouldn't we be playing Sheary with Crosby? I'd sooner move Guentzel off Crosby's line than Sheary because you know Guentzel also fits with Malkin. If you want Hornqvist with Crosby, you go with:
Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-3C-Kessel
Sheary should be staying on the top line until he proves he can't do that. Him struggling in the playoffs doesn't change that.
The question isn't who's better, it's who helps the team more. Sheary on the top line helps more than any 3rd line center the Penguins could bring in, because Sheary's most likely going to be very productive on the top line and the 3C will almost definitely be less productive.
Why would we trade Sheary for Duchene to play him on the wing? That just seems like a pointless move when you know Sheary works here.
All of these other scenarios that you keep bringing up wasn't what I was arguing. You're bringing up scenarios like Sheary on the 3rd line or Duchene on the wing that I flat out never mentioned. Sheary should be on the top line. If Duchene would be here, he should be the 3C.
How do the Penguins have the wing depth to replace a 60 point winger? I hate it how people here just write off Sheary as replaceable for some reason, he's a ridiculously productive player here. The Penguins struggled for literally a decade to find wingers for Crosby, and when you finally have one that fits with Crosby and can put up 60 points with Sid, you think they can get rid of him because he's replaceable?
Shady Machine
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No it's not even Sheary 1st line winger vs Duchene at 3C. As I pointed out, Duchene can play top line winger as well.
But let me accept your argument and say Duchene is a 3rd line center only.
The correct question is who plays 3C if not Duchene (in this hypothetical scenario) and what assets do they cost to acquire?
Let's pretend Sheary, 1st, prospect gets you Duchene and the cap works out:
Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
Wilson-Duchene-Rust
Archy-Rowney-Reaves
-With Sprong and ZAR as possible late season additions
vs
1st for Haula
Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
Rust-Haula-Sheary
Wilson-Rowney-Reaves
-With Sprong and ZAR as possible late season additions
Which lineup gives us the best chance at a 3peat?
For me the answer is obviously the 1st one. Both have great winger depth but 1 is clearly superior up the middle which is the most important forward position.
Anyway, this is all hypothetical as I don't think either trade offer I made gets it done.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Again, why are we trading for Duchene to play him on the wing? And why aren't we playing Sheary with Crosby when Sheary was insanely productive with Crosby last year?
I'm assuming you mean Hornqvist on the 3rd line there, I'd rather have the second lineup and I think it gives the Penguins a better chance at a 3-peat. I don't think the depth is good enough with Duchene on the team. Like I said, my absolute dream lineup is something like:
Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Sprong-Malkin-Hornqvist
Rust-Haula-Kessel
Hagelin-Cullen-Reaves (since he will be playing regardless)
I'd rather have Sprong-Malkin-Rust, but Hornqvist doesn't play LW and Sheary-Kessel as a wing duo looks pretty gross, although I guess you could run with:
Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Rust-Malkin-Sprong
Guentzel-Haula-Kessel
Hagelin-Cullen-Reaves
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Shady Machine
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Well the coach moved Sheary off of Crosby's line so you should probably ask him. Lines will be tinkered with all year as they generally are, but there is a very real possibility that Guentzel stays as Crosby's left winger (he led the playoffs in goals on Crosby's left) and depending on matchup and consistency, Sheary will be on the 3rd line.
Duchene is a better player and more versatile. Those two things combined make him far more valuable to the Penguins than Sheary IMO. The edge that Sheary has is caphit and contract length. Like I said at first, if your view is that Sheary at 3MM > Duchene at 6MM, particularly for the cost to acquire Duchene, then I can buy that. That's not what you are arguing though.
I didn't say the Penguins would but that if they needed to, they could and Duchene would be dynamic in that role. The point here is roster flexibility. Duchene gives you a guy you can play in any role (PK, PP, center, winger) and be successful. That's extremely valuable to any team and it's why he continually is chosen for team Canada.
You are making an assumption that Sheary will always be a 60 point winger. I guess time will tell, but I'm not convinced he's going to continue to be that productive in the future, particularly if Geuntzel is riding shotgun to Sid all the time. Having said that, I'm not moving Sheary because I think he's easy to replace, I'm moving him because 26 year old fast, 2 way top 6 centers that average 45 ES points a year are very rare and very valuable. So if given the choice between a 45 ES point winger or a center, I'll take the center every time.
Shady Machine
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Yes I did mean Horny to L3. Good catch.
Agree to disagree I guess. I'm not trying to be obsessed with returning to the 3 center model or anything, but when that player fits everything you are trying to do and you have the depth on the wing that the Pens have, it's a unique opportunity to acquire a player that can potentially produce a dynasty.
In my view Duchene >> Haula and Sprong MIGHT be able to replace Sheary's role as soon as next April.
Sheary is becoming massively overrated especially after his disappearing act in the playoffs. Why are we so convinced that .87 ppg regular season Sheary inst a hot streak and .32 ppg playoff Sheary is his actual self? Or more likely its somewhere in between.
Sid will squeeze 50-60 points out of Jake and Horny easy. He doesn't need Sheary to make that line produce. Can Phil get his totals with ****ing Rowney or another scrub as his center? Maybe we play him with Geno all season and now our 3rd line is a complete black hole. You have now taken this team from 3 scoring lines to 2.
In a hypothetical scenario you use Sheary to land Bozak, Duchene (Unlikely), Spooner, Johnson. Now we have 3 legit lines. Sid and his line still get its points. Phil can go move from 2nd to third and back and forth without leaving the third line as completely useless. Were also not basically conceding wins if Sid and/or Geno go down because as the roster looks now you have Rowney centering a top line.
Wings are not worth what centers are. We have plenty of wings and Sprong has an outside chance of making Sheary completely redundant. Sheary in my opinion is one of the most expendable, movable, and valuable pieces we have had in a long time and I think not to use him to sure up a clear weakness at center is misuse of assets regardless of how good his contract is.
Sid will squeeze 50-60 points out of Jake and Horny easy. He doesn't need Sheary to make that line produce. Can Phil get his totals with ****ing Rowney or another scrub as his center? Maybe we play him with Geno all season and now our 3rd line is a complete black hole. You have now taken this team from 3 scoring lines to 2.
In a hypothetical scenario you use Sheary to land Bozak, Duchene (Unlikely), Spooner, Johnson. Now we have 3 legit lines. Sid and his line still get its points. Phil can go move from 2nd to third and back and forth without leaving the third line as completely useless. Were also not basically conceding wins if Sid and/or Geno go down because as the roster looks now you have Rowney centering a top line.
Wings are not worth what centers are. We have plenty of wings and Sprong has an outside chance of making Sheary completely redundant. Sheary in my opinion is one of the most expendable, movable, and valuable pieces we have had in a long time and I think not to use him to sure up a clear weakness at center is misuse of assets regardless of how good his contract is.
Dipsy Doodle
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I'd rather have Sheary for 3 years at 3 mil than Duchene at 6 mil for 2 years.
His production with Sid in the regular season last year coupled with his ridiculously low price tag is too compelling to move out, even for Duchene.
His production with Sid in the regular season last year coupled with his ridiculously low price tag is too compelling to move out, even for Duchene.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Just a hunch, I think a 61 game sample size is a lot more logical to lean on than a 22 game cold streak. Just a hunch though.
The thing you're ignoring here is what trading Sheary would do down the lineup. Let's only talk about Duchene because the idea of trading Sheary for Bozak or Ryan ****ing Spooner is just nonsense. If you trade Sheary and whatever else it takes for Duchene (let's pretend it's only futures and not Maatta, when it would likely be required to have both), you have no more cap space available, Wilson is on your 3rd line when everyone is healthy and your 4th line is on caliber with what it was under Bylsma (aka bad). Your depth goes from the reason you won 2 straight cups to poor. If Sprong would come in and show he can play in the top-9, which I do think he'll be able to do next season, that lessens the blow, but your depth would still be worse with Sprong than it would be if you kept Sheary and instead traded say Wilson for an okay 3C.
Basically, trading Sheary for a 3C is just absolute overkill. If you want a great 3C, just start throwing futures at Toronto for Bozak. Spooner is just an awful option, I'd sooner go out and sign "relapsed into alcoholism" Ribiero before I'd trade for Spooner.
Shady Machine
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So hypothetically speaking, you wouldn't move Sheary as the main piece (as in not Maatta, Sprong, ZAR as other pieces in deal) for Duchene?
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