Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer | The grind it out phase | Moar 3C Talk!

[steveg]

I wouldn't say an offensive lineup like this has holes

Guentzel Sid Hornqvist
Hagelin Malkin Kessel
Rust Duchene Sprong
Wilson Rowney/Cullen Reaves

Yeah, that's a pretty impressive forward lineup. I just don't see us landing Duchene, with Sheary being the main piece going their way.

 

[Riptide]

Thank you.

If JR trades Sheary, that's completely bad faith. Leaves a bad taste with other players and gives you a poor reputation as a GM

That's been said a few times... but hasn't seemed to harm Philly despite them trading not one but two LT contracts - one even before it took effect. Players recognize that this is a business , and that they for the most part can be traded at any time. Moving someone shortly after they (as an RFA w/o a contract) signed a 3 year deal shouldn't be seen as a big deal.

 

[KIRK]

Mike Ribeiro?

JR isn't really a dumpster diving GM here so, yeah, I doubt he willingly does it. Maybe if he aims for the moon and everything's falls through he panics,

Toronto would have two reasons to trade him, imo. Asset management or trying to improve their D. I don't see them asset managing for the same reason we won't with Hornqvist and the Pens can't really help their D unless one of ours takes like five steps forward and makes Cole expendable. Then they'd just flip pending UFAs.

Yeah, we're on the same page.

Wild protected Staal, they are both happy with each other, I don't think the Pens have a shot with that unless it's a gross over payment. As for Duchene, I still think it would take Maatta + Sheary to get it done, creating some rather large holes.

If what it took to get Duchene was Shery + Maatta (+ a 1st), then Duchene would be a member of the Penguins.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

That's been said a few times... but hasn't seemed to harm Philly despite them trading not one but two LT contracts - one even before it took effect. Players recognize that this is a business , and that they for the most part can be traded at any time. Moving someone shortly after they (as an RFA w/o a contract) signed a 3 year deal shouldn't be seen as a big deal.

I'm not so sure I'd reference Philly as an organization I'd want to emulate in any way shape or form. Their FO has made a number of bad decisions that's handcuffed them for a number of years and are finally starting to see the light.

If you're Sheary, it's understood that the Pens want you and are negotiating this contract in good faith. Yup, I might be traded at the TDL, but not 2 weeks after I signed this contract.

I think it's an entirely different scenario if they didn't agree on the contract and they had to go with the arbitrator's #. Then I could see a situation where Sheary might expect to be shipped off sooner vs later

 

[Riptide]

You need a 3C?

We need defense.

I think there is a trade to be made.

So how about something along the lines of John Quenneville + a 2019 3rd for Maatta?

32 assists in the A last year, and 15 goals. Perfect bottom 6 production at a cost effective price.

Plus, if you need to take a defenseman back, you can have Stanley Cup icon, Ben Lovejoy at no extra cost.

I'd take Lovejoy back if we were moving Maatta, but I'd be wanting someone a hell of a lot better than JQ. Henrique or someone of that caliber.

And even then I really do not like the D. Maatta makes our blueline function so much better then he gets credit for. I mean sure Lovejoy could eat most of his minutes but the blueline overall would be so much worse.

Edit. Others have brought up Moore. He'd be a much better option the Lovejoy.

 

[KIRK]

Thank you.

If JR trades Sheary, that's completely bad faith. Leaves a bad taste with other players and gives you a poor reputation as a GM

That would hold water if Sheary had been a UFA and chosen to sign with the Penguins.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If what it took to get Duchene was Shery + Maatta (+ a 1st), then Duchene would be a member of the Penguins.

Which is why I don't think the Pens are in the running for Duchene at all. I think the Penguins are waiting for where he lands and then trade with the team that wants him, to free up a Center from that team, if anything.

And I still don't see the Penguins moving Sheary in any deal after just signing him. UFA or RFA, if the Penguins wanted to move Sheary, they would have done so the moment they signed him and then announced the trade, meaning the contract was leverage to a team that was worried they'd only get a 1yr deal done. So if Sheary was on the move, he'd already be gone.

 

[Riptide]

I'm not so sure I'd reference Philly as an organization I'd want to emulate in any way shape or form. Their FO has made a number of bad decisions that's handcuffed them for a number of years and are finally starting to see the light.

If you're Sheary, it's understood that the Pens want you and are negotiating this contract in good faith. Yup, I might be traded at the TDL, but not 2 weeks after I signed this contract.

I think it's an entirely different scenario if they didn't agree on the contract and they had to go with the arbitrator's #. Then I could see a situation where Sheary might expect to be shipped off sooner vs later

My point wasn't about emulating them, but illustrating that the theory that trading someone who just signed a contract will have a negative impact is flawed. Philly as an org has issues, but they haven't had a problem getting players to sign there even after trading guys who were signed LT. Aka the odds of there being a negative impact for trading Sheary (perception wise) would be slim.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It sounds like Vegas would want solely picks for Karlsson, so I think I'd do that. I think a 2nd and a lower pick would be enough to get him, maybe a 2nd and 4th or something like that. Pull that off and run with Rust-Karlsson-Kessel as your 3rd line.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

You need a 3C?

We need defense.

I think there is a trade to be made.

So how about something along the lines of John Quenneville + a 2019 3rd for Maatta?

32 assists in the A last year, and 15 goals. Perfect bottom 6 production at a cost effective price.

Plus, if you need to take a defenseman back, you can have Stanley Cup icon, Ben Lovejoy at no extra cost.

People thing we are FLUSH with Dmen- we are NOT. This is a case where the whole is better than the sum of it's parts. We have 1 Elite guy and a bunch of others who are #3-5 Dmen on most other teams

We have a bunch of WINGERS, so we need to find a team that needs Wings for our C.

 

[KIRK]

Which is why I don't think the Pens are in the running for Duchene at all. I think the Penguins are waiting for where he lands and then trade with the team that wants him, to free up a Center from that team, if anything.

And I still don't see the Penguins moving Sheary in any deal after just signing him. UFA or RFA, if the Penguins wanted to move Sheary, they would have done so the moment they signed him and then announced the trade, meaning the contract was leverage to a team that was worried they'd only get a 1yr deal done. So if Sheary was on the move, he'd already be gone.

The Pens absolutely were in the running for Duchene last year. It's my understanding that both the Isles and Pens consented to give Sakic what he claimed he wanted, at which point he backed out. In the case of the Pens, with Maatta injured, it's my understanding that two of the team's three young wingers with the highest upside may have been agreed before Sakic reneged. Just what I was told . . . whether it's right or not aside, I'm thankful Sakic flaked if that's what JR agreed.

This summer, I think JR circled back, but I suspect JR is going to wait until Sakic is fired or gets his head out of his rear before engaging in serious discussions again.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Yeah, we're on the same page.

I'm uncomfortable with this.

If what it took to get Duchene was Shery + Maatta (+ a 1st), then Duchene would be a member of the Penguins.

I think they dodged a bullet, tbh, but Sakic is ****ing insane.

I'm also curious if jr would still do that after Letang's latest, the D group proving itself to be collectively better better than I thought it was and with Sheary signed to a nice contract.

 

[PensPlz]

What's the odds of signing Will Butcher?

Would make moving Maatta inconsequential I would think.

 

[KIRK]

I'm uncomfortable with this.

You should be.

I think they dodged a bullet, tbh, but Sakic is ****ing insane.

I'm also curious if jr would still do that after Letang's latest, the D group proving itself to be collectively better better than I thought it was and with Sheary signed to a nice contract.

Remember, Maatta was hurt before the deadline. So, it wasn't Sheary + Maatta.

As noted above, I don't know the exact details, but we dodged a much bigger bullet than Sheary + Maatta at the deadline.

What's the odds of signing Will Butcher?

Would make moving Maatta inconsequential I would think.

1. Given the Pens organizational depth on defense, their recent history with college players, and the work they've done with somewhat comparable guys like Schultz, one would assume it's a decent chance.

2. That said, I haven't seen anyone suggest Butcher is a top six defenseman next year.

 

[Andy99]

You should be.



Remember, Maatta was hurt before the deadline. So, it wasn't Sheary + Maatta.

As noted above, I don't know the exact details, but we dodged a much bigger bullet than Sheary + Maatta at the deadline.



1. Given the Pens organizational depth on defense, their recent history with college players, and the work they've done with somewhat comparable guys like Schultz, one would assume it's a decent chance.

2. That said, I haven't seen anyone suggest Butcher is a top six defenseman next year.

I was under the impression the ask for Duchene at the TDL was Maatta, Sprong (or Jake) and a first, and JR said ok (to Sprong, not Jake) and Sakic reneged. I would not give COL a good prospect, but if we could get Duchene for Maatta and Sheary and a pick, or Maatta and two picks, JR should try again and do it

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sakic's turned what could have been an interesting summer into a boring one.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Remember, Maatta was hurt before the deadline. So, it wasn't Sheary + Maatta.

Pretend/acknowledge I'm an idiot and explain that. It wasn't Maatta in the trade or it wouldn't have been an immediate roster effect in the Pens?

As noted above, I don't know the exact details, but we dodged a much bigger bullet than Sheary + Maatta at the deadline.

Maatta and Sheary is enough of a dodge for me. I guess we owe Sakic for being delusional.

The value and what the defense would have looked like in the playoffs.

 

[PensPlz]

1. Given the Pens organizational depth on defense, their recent history with college players, and the work they've done with somewhat comparable guys like Schultz, one would assume it's a decent chance.

2. That said, I haven't seen anyone suggest Butcher is a top six defenseman next year.

I think he's a top 6 on a lot of teams that a pursuing him. That might end up being the deciding factor. But like you said, with the NCAA connection, I would just offer the exact same Jake Guentzel treatment. Start him in WBS, start Pooh in place of the departing Maatta, and if Butcher excels like Jake did, then bring him up.

But even if he doesn't pan out for this year, that leaves us looking for a bottom pairing dman instead of an important 3C. And we always have Ruhwedel

 

[Jenkins]

It sounds like Vegas would want solely picks for Karlsson, so I think I'd do that. I think a 2nd and a lower pick would be enough to get him, maybe a 2nd and 4th or something like that. Pull that off and run with Rust-Karlsson-Kessel as your 3rd line.

He'd be worth getting for our 4C if Cullen doesn't come back too. If the trade price was reasonable.

 

[KIRK]

I was under the impression the ask for Duchene at the TDL was Maatta, Sprong (or Jake) and a first, and JR said ok (to Sprong, not Jake) and Sakic reneged. I would not give COL a good prospect, but if we could get Duchene for Maatta and Sheary and a pick, or Maatta and two picks, JR should try again and do it

I was under the impression that once Maatta was hurt, the ask was two of Sheary, Jake, and Sprong plus a 1st and that JR finally said yes, only to have Sakic renege.

That said, if JR could get Duchene for Sheary and Maatta plus a first, then it would've been done already.

I think he's a top 6 on a lot of teams that a pursuing him. That might end up being the deciding factor. But like you said, with the NCAA connection, I would just offer the exact same Jake Guentzel treatment. Start him in WBS, start Pooh in place of the departing Maatta, and if Butcher excels like Jake did, then bring him up.

But even if he doesn't pan out for this year, that leaves us looking for a bottom pairing dman instead of an important 3C. And we always have Ruhwedel

As JR proved last year, you always can address bottom pair holes at the deadline. We might complain about the price or the specific guy obtained, but JR will be able to add a body if he needs to do it.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Kirk, you said earlier in the year that you didnt think Hagelin would be on the team by September. Do you get the impression that this is still true?

 

[Andy99]

I was under the impression that once Maatta was hurt, the ask was two of Sheary, Jake, and Sprong plus a 1st and that JR finally said yes, only to have Sakic renege.

That said, if JR could get Duchene for Sheary and Maatta plus a first, then it would've been done already.



As JR proved last year, you always can address bottom pair holes at the deadline. We might complain about the price or the specific guy obtained, but JR will be able to add a body if he needs to do it.

Wow because Sheary plus Maatta, as both have term and are quality players, is more than fair for two years of Duchene

 

[KIRK]

Kirk, you said earlier in the year that you didnt think Hagelin would be on the team by September. Do you get the impression that this is still true?

Unless he's the cap dump in a big deal, I think he's here, but I also think it's because there's really no market for him given the cap hit and production.

Wow because Sheary plus Maatta, as both have term and are quality players, is more than fair for two years of Duchene

Sakic thinks otherwise.

 

[wheelz87]

EDIT: I could see you being right about the backup option. Hell, if Cullen weren't coming back, I'd try for two of them.

Something that got glossed over.. so you get the sense Cullen will be our 4c next year?

 

[PensPlz]

Sakic thinks otherwise.

We don't have to convince Sakic of that. We have to convince Sakic's replacement

And by that time, the price will have dropped.