Value of: Retooling/rebuilding the Flames

[Mike Smith]

Exactly this. I hate when people use Vegas as evidence that teams don’t need top centers to be contenders. They are an exception (with incredible depth and players that fit a system) and not the rule. Sure if we had the great high-tempo four-line play style Vegas does we wouldn’t need to be so reliant on our top players for scoring. But the way we’re built we clearly don’t have the scoring to get it done and the ability to match up against teams top lines. Sure in theory a team doesn’t necessarily need a 1C to be contenders but we’re in a position where Monahan at 1C is one of the main things holding us back. Monahan can be completely invisible and is not a core guy to rely on when you need a goal. We desperately need another guy to take the pressure of Johnny and we aren’t gonna get that without shaking it up and move on from guys that have plateaued and can’t get it done in the roles we hoped (Monahan at 1C and Hanifin and Hammer as a potential top-pairing dman). And since they still have some value we can get great returns and try to plug the few big holes that hold us back from the next level.

The question is not does a team need a top level center to be a contender but does Gaudreau need a top level center to be consistent through a playoff push where the checking gets tighter and Johnny disappears. Monahan is a fine player... but is his skillsets what will elevate the rest of the line to the point of being the top line on a cup winner? myself I think he would be a better 2c and be the guy getting the secondary scoring making the most of the matchup going against our top line... but hey

 

[Just Linda]

I feel like live said this 40 times now, Monahan is a better center than both W. Karlsson and Stastny yet no one talks about Vegas lack of a true 1C. Your logic dictates we should trade Ras and Tkachuk while their values are high too.

Also not sure if you know this but Calgary isnt exactly a team that rakes in a lot of money. They are fairly reliant on post season income and only really make 5-10M otherwise.

1) Vegas had a miracle run but didn't win the cup. A lot of people argue that it was an inspirational story but had more fluke than anything. Im sure no team wants to be the bridesmaid, not sure why you'd compare them to a team that hasn't won

2) Vegas had depth for days. Flames don't.

3) Vegas sees their centre depth as weak and are actively addressing it. Cody Glass is being groomed for the future, Statsny was signed. If a Tavares type players became available, you know Vegas' mandate would be to court him. They've been bold, they've taken risks. Calgary really isn't doing that are they? Vegas built their entire 2nd line on draft picks and signings and it's quite a good second line.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Brad Treliving cut the rebuild too short the moment he traded the future for Hamonic. As a result we are a middling team with no help on the way. It's time to cut our losses with this core and start over. Gaudreau and Tkachuk are not for sale. Available assests are:

Giordano: Captain of the Flames and fan favourite. Has a NTC that opens up to 19 possible teams to trade to next year so no Edmonton or Winnipeg. On contract for a very reasonable 6.75 for another 2 years. Only blemish is hes 36 years old. Appeared to take a step back this season but the whole Flames team struggled so could still see a bit of a bounceback. Absolutely still a top tier TWD for the duration of his contract. Perfect for a team like the Leafs that need an elite two way LHD on a decent contract. (Edited RHD to LHD my bad)

Elias Lindholm: Top 6 tenacious right wing/center, defensively responsible signed to a steal of a contract at 4.85 till 2024. Excellent faceoff skills and has been used as a center effectively. Value depends on how much if at all you think his offense is inflated from playing with Gaudreau. Only 25 years old.

Sean Monahan: What he is is a constant debate among Flames fans. Used as a 1c, should probably be a 2c or top 6 winger. 6.4m until 2023. Consistent 30 goal scorer could hit 40 depending on linemates. Complimentary scorer. Also still young enough to be a core piece.

Mikael Backlund: Defensively responsible 2 or 3c. Expensive contract if used as a 3c at 5.35 until 2023. Consistently between 45-55 points per 82 games.

Noah Hanifin: Young defenceman with upside signed long term. No longer a believer that he will ever be a 1D but some teams might believe so. Signed just under 5m until 2024. Not really willing to move unless a big return (Top 10 pick in 2020).

Flames needs: Young roster players with offensive upside, high draft picks, goalie prospects, defenseman prospect with 1D potential.

I believe the term you're looking for is "reset".

 

[Blitz]

Georgedano and Monahan to Toronto for Marner.

Then Gaudreau, Bennett to Buffalo for Eichel.

Sign Hall

New core:

Thachuk - Eichel - Lindholm
Hall - Backlund - Marner

Put down the pipe big fella... TOR & BUF both hang up on Brad the second those proposals are tabled.. Value is out to lunch on both. For starters TOR doesn't need Monahan or an aging D-man like Giordano. Secondly, even if BUF was shopping Eichel, which they're not - it would take a hell of a lot more than JG & Bennett... Yikes.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

1) Vegas had a miracle run but didn't win the cup. A lot of people argue that it was an inspirational story but had more fluke than anything. Im sure no team wants to be the bridesmaid, not sure why you'd compare them to a team that hasn't won

2) Vegas had depth for days. Flames don't.

3) Vegas sees their centre depth as weak and are actively addressing it. Cody Glass is being groomed for the future, Statsny was signed. If a Tavares type players became available, you know Vegas' mandate would be to court him. They've been bold, they've taken risks. Calgary really isn't doing that are they? Vegas built their entire 2nd line on draft picks and signings and it's quite a good second line.

1. Not referring to their 1st year but after they acquired Stastny. I understand what you mean about the bridesmaid part ut its hard to fi d examples of teams that won without a superstar center when there was a 4 team dynasty for 8 years. Maybe Staal in 06 and Gomez in 03?
2. Flames have fairly decent depth as well, people seem to forget that Ryan is a really good bottom 6 center.
3. Im aware of Glass and I hope he can fill in Stastny's shoes but Im talking about current Vegas. A lot of their success comes from their winger depth and goaltending. Im by no means saying Calgary should just sit still. Im fully under the i.pression that adding to the top 6 is a must but that has to be done without blowing it up. You're a Habs fan, you tell me. Do you think acquiring a player like Domi to ce ter the Tkachuk and Mangiapane line would relevantly improve the teams depth and scoring? I for 1 do think it would. And acquiring Domi wouldnt cost an arm and a leg like say Eichel.

 

[Just Linda]

1. Not referring to their 1st year but after they acquired Stastny. I understand what you mean about the bridesmaid part ut its hard to fi d examples of teams that won without a superstar center when there was a 4 team dynasty for 8 years. Maybe Staal in 06 and Gomez in 03?
2. Flames have fairly decent depth as well, people seem to forget that Ryan is a really good bottom 6 center.
3. Im aware of Glass and I hope he can fill in Stastny's shoes but Im talking about current Vegas. A lot of their success comes from their winger depth and goaltending. Im by no means saying Calgary should just sit still. Im fully under the i.pression that adding to the top 6 is a must but that has to be done without blowing it up. You're a Habs fan, you tell me. Do you think acquiring a player like Domi to ce ter the Tkachuk and Mangiapane line would relevantly improve the teams depth and scoring? I for 1 do think it would. And acquiring Domi wouldnt cost an arm and a leg like say Eichel.

Of course, if you can ignore Domi's lumps and warts, him being in a lineup would bump Backlund down to 3c which accomplishes a lot for the Flames, takes a weakness and turns it into a strength. Their 1c still will be a weakness but easier to overcome.

That's the thing though, yes Ryan is a really good bottom 6 centre in theory. Depth scoring comes from having too many top 6 talent that players get bumped down the lineup. Ryan might be good but the fact you mention him shows that Flames arent deep, they have a top 6 and a bottom 6 essentially rather than 3 lines plus role players or a top 9.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Of course, if you can ignore Domi's lumps and warts, him being in a lineup would bump Backlund down to 3c which accomplishes a lot for the Flames, takes a weakness and turns it into a strength. Their 1c still will be a weakness but easier to overcome.

That's the thing though, yes Ryan is a really good bottom 6 centre in theory. Depth scoring comes from having too many top 6 talent that players get bumped down the lineup. Ryan might be good but the fact you mention him shows that Flames arent deep, they have a top 6 and a bottom 6 essentially rather than 3 lines plus role players or a top 9.

I think Dube is easily a top 6 potential talent and Bennett has proven he can play top 6 with his consistent post season success. He did have a really rough year though but should bounce back (like most of the team). Like I said finding a way to make Backlund a 3C without loosing winger depth (Lindholm to 2C without a replacement) should in theory make this team a legitimate contender. Calgary essentially had Kadri on their roster last summer and lost the bidding war for Trocheck at the deadline.

 

[Meeqs]

So for the Flames fans here. If you were forced to trade JG, SM, and Hanifin what would be some trades that you would move them out for.

Less interested on it being even for both sides and more curious what pieces you would target as a return for each.

Like have there been any proposals you have seen so far that have made at least some sense to you for each of those 3?

 

[User1996]

So for the Flames fans here. If you were forced to trade JG, SM, and Hanifin what would be some trades that you would move them out for.

Less interested on it being even for both sides and more curious what pieces you would target as a return for each.

Like have there been any proposals you have seen so far that have made at least some sense to you for each of those 3?

Hanifin for Domi would make some sense. Or Hanifin for another top 6 C/RW.

Other than that, I don’t see a “hockey trade” that would happen for either Gaudreau or Monahan, so I don’t see a scenario where moving them makes sense. All the proposals for them are packages around lesser players/futures, which 90% of the fan base would be against.

 

[Conbon]

Hanifin for Domi would make some sense. Or Hanifin for another top 6 C/RW.

Other than that, I don’t see a “hockey trade” that would happen for either Gaudreau or Monahan, so I don’t see a scenario where moving them makes sense. All the proposals for them are packages around lesser players/futures, which 90% of the fan base would be against.

That's the issue with not being able to move on from our stagnated core pieces. We aren't going to get a good hockey trade that makes sense moving Monahan. It's not a matter of being strong in one position and using that to spread the wealth throughout the lineup by acquiring a better fit. We just don't have enough. Not enough futures to acquire someone without making another hole. Not enough offensive talent. Soon to be not enough defensive depth with Gio on the way out.

Now is the time to make a decision while our players have the most value. No more sitting on our hands, if we want to be a contender some day we need to take some chances on young high upside players and picks.

 

[User1996]

That's the issue with not being able to move on from our stagnated core pieces. We aren't going to get a good hockey trade that makes sense moving Monahan. It's not a matter of being strong in one position and using that to spread the wealth throughout the lineup by acquiring a better fit. We just don't have enough. Not enough futures to acquire someone without making another hole. Not enough offensive talent. Soon to be not enough defensive depth with Gio on the way out.

Now is the time to make a decision while our players have the most value. No more sitting on our hands, if we want to be a contender some day we need to take some chances on young high upside players and picks.

In what world do our players have the most value after career worst years for both Gaudreau and Monahan? You would be selling low no matter how you justify it.

I would much rather use this off-season to load up as much as possible. Whether that’s bringing in Hall, or other moves. I just don’t want to see high end futures moved to do so.

Players like Johnny and Gio are harder to come by than people realize. I think you put your best foot forward and take your shot for the next two seasons before you possibly lose Johnny and Gio is no longer a 1D.

If that fails, then it’s time to consider hitting the reset button (dependent on player development) after a couple years. But I think Treliving is getting ready to give this group the best opportunity he can to make a run.

 

[Conbon]

In what world do our players have the most value after career worst years for both Gaudreau and Monahan? You would be selling low no matter how you justify it.

I would much rather use this off-season to load up as much as possible. Whether that’s bringing in Hall, or other moves. I just don’t want to see high end futures moved to do so.

Players like Johnny and Gio are harder to come by than people realize. I think you put your best foot forward and take your shot for the next two seasons before you possibly lose Johnny and Gio is no longer a 1D.

If that fails, then it’s time to consider hitting the reset button (dependent on player development) after a couple years. But I think Treliving is getting ready to give this group the best opportunity he can to make a run.

In a world where theres a good chance they don't bounce back to their 18-19 forms. One down year isn't enough to plummet their values but two in a row would do it. If a 37 year old Giordano isn't able to do the heavy lifting for this team next year then it is a definite down year. Monahan putting up another 30 goal 60 point season won't boost his value. I've already said that we should not move Gaudreau, he's the kind of talent that tanking teams hope to get. We need to pay him whatever he wants to stay and him walking is a risk we will have to take if we want to have a truly competitive team in a few years.

This is the offseason to do it. Hopefully when we get bounced convincingly by Winnipeg this year Treliving will see the writing on the wall and do something or get fired for someone who can make those decisions.

 

[User1996]

In a world where theres a good chance they don't bounce back to their 18-19 forms. One down year isn't enough to plummet their values but two in a row would do it. If a 37 year old Giordano isn't able to do the heavy lifting for this team next year then it is a definite down year. Monahan putting up another 30 goal 60 point season won't boost his value. I've already said that we should not move Gaudreau, he's the kind of talent that tanking teams hope to get. We need to pay him whatever he wants to stay and him walking is a risk we will have to take if we want to have a truly competitive team in a few years.

This is the offseason to do it. Hopefully when we get bounced convincingly by Winnipeg this year Treliving will see the writing on the wall and do something or get fired for someone who can make those decisions.

65 point Monahan 100% has more value than 48 point Monahan. I don’t know how anyone can argue otherwise.

There’s no chance Winnipeg can bounce us convincingly with that D-core. You’re so overly negative about this team it’s not even funny.

Treliving fails if he doesn’t come close to a cup with this core. The writing would be on the wall for him as our GM if he doesn’t. I fully expect him to take a shot. We already know he’s an aggressive GM too. He’ll make the right decision

 

[blankall]

In a world where theres a good chance they don't bounce back to their 18-19 forms. One down year isn't enough to plummet their values but two in a row would do it. If a 37 year old Giordano isn't able to do the heavy lifting for this team next year then it is a definite down year. Monahan putting up another 30 goal 60 point season won't boost his value. I've already said that we should not move Gaudreau, he's the kind of talent that tanking teams hope to get. We need to pay him whatever he wants to stay and him walking is a risk we will have to take if we want to have a truly competitive team in a few years.

This is the offseason to do it. Hopefully when we get bounced convincingly by Winnipeg this year Treliving will see the writing on the wall and do something or get fired for someone who can make those decisions.

Calgary got off to an awful start, but then did bounce back quite a bit to end the season strong.

Monahan's play wasn't even all that horrendous. Is he a PPG player? No. He's a 60ish point, 30ish goal scorer. Which is very solid for his salary. Even in this horrendous year, that everyone seems to think that Monahan can't recover from, he put up a 56 point and 26 goal pace.

People also seem to forget that the Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane line was one of the best lines in the NHL from February onwards. Tkachuk was well over PPG during this time. Backlund had 22 points in his last 16 games. Mangiapane had 17 points during the last 18 games. Apparently the Flames, however, are a team with an inept top line and a no scoring depth though? Even Lucic had 9 points in his last 15 games. The Flames were a team that got off to a slow start, and the impact of that start was amplified by a shortened season.

Blowing up a team with so many great young players in Mangiapane, Tkachuk, Valimaki, Andersson, Lindholm, and Hanifin is absurd. If the Flames totally wipe out in the playoffs, it might make sense to shake things up, but trading players like Gaudreau and Monahan for mid to late 1sts and depth players is absurd and a surefire recipe for mediocrity. If Hall is acquired and you trade Gaudreau for a cheaper and grittier RW, maybe? Trading Gaudreau or Monahan for a late 1st and 2nd/3rd + B prospect line winger? WTF?

 

[blankall]

65 point Monahan 100% has more value than 48 point Monahan. I don’t know how anyone can argue otherwise.

Love how all these analyses don't even take into account the fact the season was shortened by 12 games due to the Covid outbreak. "48 point Monahan"? He was actually on pace for 56 points and his numbers were building towards the end of the season, but better to exaggerate his failings to strengthen points I guess?

 

[Mazatt]

While the end goal of hockey is to win and there are different ways to do that, team history needs to be taken into account. After toiling in the basement for almost two decades the Flames have a chance to compete and everyone screams they need to tear it down? That's astronomically stupid. Building a good roster and making the playoffs every season for 5 seasons and winning some series is a lot better for the team than sucking for another 10 years in the hope we get a generational talent that we then have to build around. Completely ignoring that Calgary has a ton of competitive pieces in place, what does losing again do for the fan base. Look at Buffalo. Even one of the most dedicated fan bases is starting to falter at another year of what looks like failure--why would Calgary be any different? For a team to be in it's compeititive window with a young core to blow it up is unheard of. For that team to do so after 10 years of constant failure would be even more stupid.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Until Gaudreau rejects a lucrative contact extension he is only tradeable for a Barkov or Eichel type talent. Otherwise GTFO.

Gaudreau had a horrendous year, just garbage compared to what he usually is, and according to the analytics community, still created the 20th most offensive chances in the league. When a player has by far his worst year and is still 20th in the league in creating scoring chances, it tells you what a special player he is.

all the trade offers on here for him are embarrassing and not even close to what it would take to acquire a player like Johnny who has another dominant decade in him. The ignorance around this player going back to his college days show the complete lack of knowledge by the majority of posters on this website.

 

[CatchyTune]

Until Gaudreau rejects a lucrative contact extension he is only tradeable for a Barkov or Eichel type talent. Otherwise GTFO.

Gaudreau had a horrendous year, just garbage compared to what he usually is, and according to the analytics community, still created the 20th most offensive chances in the league. When a player has by far his worst year and is still 20th in the league in creating scoring chances, it tells you what a special player he is.

all the trade offers on here for him are embarrassing and not even close to what it would take to acquire a player like Johnny who has another dominant decade in him. The ignorance around this player going back to his college days show the complete lack of knowledge by the majority of posters on this website.

I guess all 30 teams will GTFO.

 

[Conbon]

I guess all 30 teams will GTFO.

As they should. Gaudreau should not be for sale

 

[CatchyTune]

As they should. Gaudreau should not be for sale

Cool. But for anyone to suggest he would return a Barkov/Eichel is insane. He isnt anywhere close to either, and even considering he would be a rental after rejecting an extension.

 

[User1996]

Love how all these analyses don't even take into account the fact the season was shortened by 12 games due to the Covid outbreak. "48 point Monahan"? He was actually on pace for 56 points and his numbers were building towards the end of the season, but better to exaggerate his failings to strengthen points I guess?

Sorry for the monstrous 8 point exaggeration...

Point stands, I don’t think Monahan’s value is where it should be at right now

 

[blankall]

Sorry for the monstrous 8 point exaggeration...

Point stands, I don’t think Monahan’s value is where it should be at right now

When you're talking about a player who's been a 60-65 point player and stating he only had 48 points this year, an 8 point difference is pretty significant.

So basically, this year he's only a few points below his typical production, which is explained by the whole team getting off to an awful start. You specifically called him "48 point Monahan", like that was his absolute value.

 

[User1996]

When you're talking about a player who's been a 60-65 point player and stating he only had 48 points this year, an 8 point difference is pretty significant.

So basically, this year he's only a few points below his typical production, which is explained by the whole team getting off to an awful start. You specifically called him "48 point Monahan", like that was his absolute value.

I didn’t allude to any absolute value at all. You inferred that. Trade value includes much more than point production.

Again, the point is still the same - I don’t believe Monahan’s trade value is at its highest (hence selling low) at this point in time, and I don’t think we would get back in a trade what would be needed to justify moving him. It’s not going to change arguing semantics with you.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Cool. But for anyone to suggest he would return a Barkov/Eichel is insane. He isnt anywhere close to either, and even considering he would be a rental after rejecting an extension.

no my point is you don’t trade Gaudreau for anything less than a superstar or top 3 pick. Not now. Not while he has two years left.

What have Barkov or Eichel done to the players around him that Gaudreau hasn’t? What success have those guys had that Gaudreau hasn’t? Have they led their NHL teams to conference titles? No. Have they won NCAA or WJCs? No. Have they turned 40 point players into PPG players? No. Have their teams made the playoffs 3/5 seasons despite having the second worst sv% over that time period? No. Has either guy had a 99 point season? No.

You know who’s insane? Posters who wouldn’t trade their mid first and Josh Brook for Gaudreau. That is who is insane.

 

[BurnEmUp]

no my point is you don’t trade Gaudreau for anything less than a superstar or top 3 pick. Not now. Not while he has two years left.

What have Barkov or Eichel done to the players around him that Gaudreau hasn’t? What success have those guys had that Gaudreau hasn’t? Have they led their NHL teams to conference titles? No. Have they won NCAA or WJCs? No. Have they turned 40 point players into PPG players? No. Have their teams made the playoffs 3/5 seasons despite having the second worst sv% over that time period? No. Has either guy had a 99 point season? No.

You know who’s insane? Posters who wouldn’t trade their mid first and Josh Brook for Gaudreau. That is who is insane.

Haha awesome. Love it.

Sabres fans, for example, that say they wouldn't trade 8th overall in a package for Gaudreau. That's laughable. This will be their 8th straight time picking in the top 8 and the only guys they picked in all those years who are better than Gaudreau are Eichel at 2nd overall and Dahlin at 1st overall. Risto at 8th, Nylander at 8th, Reinhart at 2nd, Mittlestadt at 8th...you'd think you'd be sick of waiting for these high picks to actually pan out and happily trade one as part of a package for a truly elite offensive play driver in his prime. Johnny would be a threat for 100 points every season playing with Eichel.