Value of: Retooling/rebuilding the Flames

[User1996]

We have very different mindsets then. Your ‘hockey is a business, we need to be conservative with our assets to make sure we’re always competitive’ is not gonna build a winning team. Also, when have the Flames ‘continually moved assets for younger picks/ players?’ We started to 7 years ago when we traded Iggy but then we started trading multiple early-round picks to try and jumpstart the process. And we are now a middling team with a bare prospect pool and a declining captain. We don’t need a complete rebuild, as much of our core is still very young, but we do need a retool. I agree that Hanifin is expendable, but I don’t think we can get the top-6 forward we want in return for him. Moving players for picks, restoring the cupboards so that we can eventually become a legit contender with our decent young core, and getting 5+ mil in cap space to pursue another impact player makes us a way better team than sticking with our average top-9, average top-4 and inconsistent goaltending.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mang
Dube-Ryan-Bennett
Lucic-____-Reider
Gio Rasmus
Hanifin ______
Valimaki _____
Kylington

And one mid-1st this year.

Or:

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Hall ($10mil/year)
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mang
Dube-Cozens-Bennett
Lucic/Reider-Ryan-Thompson
Gio Rasmus
Valimaki _______
Kylington Jokiharju

And the 8th overall and another 1st this year

Really doesn’t look much worse to me. We’ve spent the exact same cap in both rosters. In the first we need a 4C and 2 RD’s. In the second we just need one RD and maybe one more depth C if Cozens isn’t ready.

I’m not saying that the Flames have ever continually moved assets for futures. That’s just what a rebuild/retool mentality will lead to. We start out, for example trading Monahan for a handful of lesser assets (young guys and picks) that may never be as good as Monahan. Sure, they could be, but rarely does the team giving up the best asset win a trade. Then when that trade doesn’t improve the team, we trade another top player for a handful of magic beans. It just doesn’t make sense to me why people think that’s the only way to improve this team. It will likely take years before there is any tangible improvement anyways. I’m not willing to throw away years of playoff hockey for a bunch of “what-ifs”.

If you don’t believe a winner could be constructed out of our current pieces, then that’s fine. But I absolutely think it can. If the Flames were a declining, aging team, I’d be right on board with the rebuild. But they’re not. They’re a team that went from a 50 win season (via many career years) to fighting a team fighting for a divisional spot (while there were a lot of career worst years). The reality is the real Flames team is probably somewhere in between the results of the past two seasons (which is a good hockey team). We’re not that far off from being able to make some noise in the playoffs.

 

[Conbon]

It's a loser mentality to want to be just good enough to make the playoffs. It's what the Flames have been doing for 20 years now, we really need to take our lessons from the Iggy era and know when to move on.

I agree the Flames roster is somewhere between 18-19 and 19-20 but that's just not good enough. There is no high end prospects coming up which we desperately need. Screwed ourselves when we sent Dobson (pick 12) and 2 seconds for 3rd pairing Hamonic.

It's time to take a few swings on high potential prospects. It's the only way we can push ourselves over the hump and be legit contenders

 

[User1996]

Who here is advocating to “just be good enough” to get in?

 

[Nanuuk]

You brought up Toronto not me.

Points in the standings are one thing. But you have to take in consideration teams foundation and core.

Is a core of Matthews/Marner/Tavares/Nylander/Rielly better than a core of Tkachuk/Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm/Giordano? Age and contracts in consideration.

But this isnt about Toronto. Do you think this flames core can be cup contenders? Because thats the point of the thread.

Yes I think the Flames can become contenders and you were the one that said they need a rebuild/re-tool. You have a JOHN TAVERES reference in your signature indicating perhaps that you are a Toronto fan. Perhaps I'm wrong about your team loyalty, but that indicated to me that you think Toronto doesn't need anything. So I pointed out the relative records of both to show they are relatively equal teams. Apologies if I was wrong.

 

[CatchyTune]

Yes I think the Flames can become contenders and you were the one that said they need a rebuild/re-tool. You have a JOHN TAVERES reference in your signature indicating perhaps that you are a Toronto fan. Perhaps I'm wrong about your team loyalty, but that indicated to me that you think Toronto doesn't need anything. So I pointed out the relative records of both to show they are relatively equal teams. Apologies if I was wrong.

Oh, you got my team correct, but I still fail to see how thats relevant. We are allowed to comment on other teams without fans like you getting offended and comparing records. There is a reason this thread was created. To discuss the topic, and im not the only one to think this way.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

It's a loser mentality to want to be just good enough to make the playoffs. It's what the Flames have been doing for 20 years now, we really need to take our lessons from the Iggy era and know when to move on.

I agree the Flames roster is somewhere between 18-19 and 19-20 but that's just not good enough. There is no high end prospects coming up which we desperately need. Screwed ourselves when we sent Dobson (pick 12) and 2 seconds for 3rd pairing Hamonic.

It's time to take a few swings on high potential prospects. It's the only way we can push ourselves over the hump and be legit contenders

No a looser mentality is continuously jumping at the reset button until you get it perfect (which will never happen). Look at Edmonton, 10 out of 11 years they picked in the top 10 (multiple 1sts oa) and are still barely competing.

I agree that the Hamonic trade was rushed/forced and an overall poor decision but that doesn't make the entire roster a bust. Only 1 team wins the cup per year and there are 31 (soon 32) teams. How does it logically make sense to blow it up after a bad season where the team still finished 3rd in the division at the stop?

 

[Conbon]

No a looser mentality is continuously jumping at the reset button until you get it perfect (which will never happen). Look at Edmonton, 10 out of 11 years they picked in the top 10 (multiple 1sts oa) and are still barely competing.

I agree that the Hamonic trade was rushed/forced and an overall poor decision but that doesn't make the entire roster a bust. Only 1 team wins the cup per year and there are 31 (soon 32) teams. How does it logically make sense to blow it up after a bad season where the team still finished 3rd in the division at the stop?

We dont have the pieces to get it done. Monahan isn't a 1c but other teams apparently think he is so we should be capitalizing on that. Giordano is 36 with 2 years left on a reasonable contract. Makes a ton of sense to move him to a legit contender and actually learn from holding on to Iginla too long and getting a shit return. If both these moves happen then Lindholm's steal of a contract doesn't benefit us but it could benefit someone else.

Maximizing value from our assests. If we give them another year or 2 to prove what they've already proven over the past 3 or 4 years their values will be diminished. Were not good enough but its typical of the Flames to be content with mediocre.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

We dont have the pieces to get it done. Monahan isn't a 1c but other teams apparently think he is so we should be capitalizing on that. Giordano is 36 with 2 years left on a reasonable contract. Makes a ton of sense to move him to a legit contender and actually learn from holding on to Iginla too long and getting a shit return. If both these moves happen then Lindholm's steal of a contract doesn't benefit us but it could benefit someone else.

Maximizing value from our assests. If we give them another year or 2 to prove what they've already proven over the past 3 or 4 years their values will be diminished. Were not good enough but its typical of the Flames to be content with mediocre.

I feel like live said this 40 times now, Monahan is a better center than both W. Karlsson and Stastny yet no one talks about Vegas lack of a true 1C. Your logic dictates we should trade Ras and Tkachuk while their values are high too.

Also not sure if you know this but Calgary isnt exactly a team that rakes in a lot of money. They are fairly reliant on post season income and only really make 5-10M otherwise.

 

[Conbon]

I feel like live said this 40 times now, Monahan is a better center than both W. Karlsson and Stastny yet no one talks about Vegas lack of a true 1C. Your logic dictates we should trade Ras and Tkachuk while their values are high too.

Also not sure if you know this but Calgary isnt exactly a team that rakes in a lot of money. They are fairly reliant on post season income and only really make 5-10M otherwise.

Ras and Tkachuk still have upside. Monahan is what he is. Doesn't matter how many times you've said it. Watch the games. Monahan is an opportunistic goal scorer. He creates no offense for himself. He disappears for games at a time. His defense is massively overrated from his rookie scouting report.

Vegas had/has an insane amount of depth. The Flames aren't close to that level especially when Gio regresses.

Its unfortunate the Flames are putting profit over being competitive like the Sens. Would love to see them actually try for a cup.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I feel like live said this 40 times now, Monahan is a better center than both W. Karlsson and Stastny yet no one talks about Vegas lack of a true 1C. Your logic dictates we should trade Ras and Tkachuk while their values are high too.

Also not sure if you know this but Calgary isnt exactly a team that rakes in a lot of money. They are fairly reliant on post season income and only really make 5-10M otherwise.

That's highly debatable. Their production over the past 3 years has been pretty similar, despite Monahan riding shotgun to Gaudreau. More importantly, Karlsson is a complete 2 way player who can contribute in all situations. He's also a much better skater and has a higher compete level.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Ras and Tkachuk still have upside. Monahan is what he is. Doesn't matter how many times you've said it. Watch the games. Monahan is an opportunistic goal scorer. He creates no offense for himself. He disappears for games at a time. His defense is massively overrated from his rookie scouting report.

Vegas had/has an insane amount of depth. The Flames aren't close to that level especially when Gio regresses.

Its unfortunate the Flames are putting profit over being competitive like the Sens. Would love to see them actually try for a cup.

Exactly this. I hate when people use Vegas as evidence that teams don’t need top centers to be contenders. They are an exception (with incredible depth and players that fit a system) and not the rule. Sure if we had the great high-tempo four-line play style Vegas does we wouldn’t need to be so reliant on our top players for scoring. But the way we’re built we clearly don’t have the scoring to get it done and the ability to match up against teams top lines. Sure in theory a team doesn’t necessarily need a 1C to be contenders but we’re in a position where Monahan at 1C is one of the main things holding us back. Monahan can be completely invisible and is not a core guy to rely on when you need a goal. We desperately need another guy to take the pressure of Johnny and we aren’t gonna get that without shaking it up and move on from guys that have plateaued and can’t get it done in the roles we hoped (Monahan at 1C and Hanifin and Hammer as a potential top-pairing dman). And since they still have some value we can get great returns and try to plug the few big holes that hold us back from the next level.

 

[Nanuuk]

Oh, you got my team correct, but I still fail to see how thats relevant. We are allowed to comment on other teams without fans like you getting offended and comparing records. There is a reason this thread was created. To discuss the topic, and im not the only one to think this way.

Yeah sure. But why you think the Flames are in need of a 'rebuild', but your Leafs aren't is incongruous.

 

[CatchyTune]

Yeah sure. But why you think the Flames are in need of a 'rebuild', but your Leafs aren't is incongruous.

No, its really not. This thread is literally called "Retooling/rebuilding the Flames". I can make a comment contrary to that regardless of where my team is in the standings.

 

[Bounces R Way]

I don't understand Flames fans' obsession with rebuilding/retooling. They finished first in the West last season. Were on track to make the playoffs this season and still have a good chance to do so. Somehow that means it's time to blow it up?

Figure out how to add to the roster if you can. Spend some draft capital or go get a worthwhile free agent. Make it better, don't just rearrange it and hope the new mix is good enough.

 

[Iggys Dome]

Doesn't make sense to rebuild right now..even a re-tool should only be done if the team crashes out in the play-in. The team sputtered for 75% of the season and were only 7 points (3 wins back with a game in hand) of first in the pacific.

That's not to say there aren't holes, I still don't think Monahan is the ideal 1C for a cup contender and we could use a top 6 RW. But spinning our wheels perpetually rebuilding especially when the team is mostly young doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I still think Lindholm should be given more time as 1C and we need a top 6 rw to fill out.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

Georgedano and Monahan to Toronto for Marner.

Then Gaudreau, Bennett to Buffalo for Eichel.

Sign Hall

New core:

Thachuk - Eichel - Lindholm
Hall - Backlund - Marner

 

[RasmusAndersson]

I don't understand Flames fans' obsession with rebuilding/retooling. They finished first in the West last season. Were on track to make the playoffs this season and still have a good chance to do so. Somehow that means it's time to blow it up?

Figure out how to add to the roster if you can. Spend some draft capital or go get a worthwhile free agent. Make it better, don't just rearrange it and hope the new mix is good enough.

If you watched every game you’d know we aren’t the legit contender you’re making us out to me. We aren’t that that far away, but we don’t have the scoring and top guys to get it done. We can’t sell anymore picks or prospects because we barely have any left. Once Valimaki fully graduates our prospect pool becomes garbage. We need to build a sustainable system and have a good prospect pool so that we can deal from a position of strength and always be able to fill holes with young guys. We can keep pretending we’re close with what we have and spending prospects and picks on non-core players to try and push us over the top, or we can cut our losses before we stay in this middling state until Johnny leaves and Gio retires. We don’t even need a complete rebuild, just Hanifin and/ or Monahan should be moved for good young players and their cap space replaced with more useful core guys to help stock our bare prospect pool and go for that 1C/ scoring upgrade we need

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Georgedano and Monahan to Toronto for Marner.

Then Gaudreau, Bennett to Buffalo for Eichel.

Sign Hall

New core:

Thachuk - Eichel - Lindholm
Hall - Backlund - Marner

If either team actually wanted that we’d take that and run but unfortunately not gonna happen

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I don't understand Flames fans' obsession with rebuilding/retooling. They finished first in the West last season. Were on track to make the playoffs this season and still have a good chance to do so. Somehow that means it's time to blow it up?

Figure out how to add to the roster if you can. Spend some draft capital or go get a worthwhile free agent. Make it better, don't just rearrange it and hope the new mix is good enough.

it’s honestly 6 or 7 posters who I hesitate to call fans.

Poster: “The Flames lack enough elite talent outside of Gaudreau to win a cup”
Same poster: “The Flames should trade Gaudreau for Sam Reinhart”

comparing this generation of the Flames to past generations is hilarious. This one is much better and our scouts find solid NHL players every draft.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Doesn't make sense to rebuild right now..even a re-tool should only be done if the team crashes out in the play-in. The team sputtered for 75% of the season and were only 7 points (3 wins back with a game in hand) of first in the pacific.

That's not to say there aren't holes, I still don't think Monahan is the ideal 1C for a cup contender and we could use a top 6 RW. But spinning our wheels perpetually rebuilding especially when the team is mostly young doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I still think Lindholm should be given more time as 1C and we need a top 6 rw to fill out.

I agree that we only need to shake things up if we lose the play-in but that’s honestly pretty likely at this point. If the Jets manage their lines correctly they will be a match-up nightmare for our forwards. Scheifele head-to-head against Monahan is a nightmare and then some combination of Ehlers/Laine/Connor/Wheeler against our 2nd line will be close enough that our depth scoring can’t overcome their high scoring forwards imo. A classic case of not being able to consistently contain other teams top guys or score enough to win, something we’ve always seen from this core

 

[CraigsList]

Georgedano and Monahan to Toronto for Marner.

Then Gaudreau, Bennett to Buffalo for Eichel.

Sign Hall

New core:

Thachuk - Eichel - Lindholm
Hall - Backlund - Marner

Lol, terrible offer for Buffalo. Toronto would have said yes if they were saving cap, but they are not. Pipe dreams for Flames.

 

[Ragdoll]

Georgedano and Monahan to Toronto for Marner.

Then Gaudreau, Bennett to Buffalo for Eichel.

Sign Hall

New core:

Thachuk - Eichel - Lindholm
Hall - Backlund - Marner

Jesus christ, my eyes. Those deals are awful for Toronto and Buffalo.

Toronto trades their best winger for a center they don’t need and an aging LHD they don’t need.
Buffalo trades their franchise center for 2 years of Gaudreau?

 

[Bounces R Way]

If you watched every game you’d know we aren’t the legit contender you’re making us out to me. We aren’t that that far away, but we don’t have the scoring and top guys to get it done. We can’t sell anymore picks or prospects because we barely have any left. Once Valimaki fully graduates our prospect pool becomes garbage. We need to build a sustainable system and have a good prospect pool so that we can deal from a position of strength and always be able to fill holes with young guys. We can keep pretending we’re close with what we have and spending prospects and picks on non-core players to try and push us over the top, or we can cut our losses before we stay in this middling state until Johnny leaves and Gio retires. We don’t even need a complete rebuild, just Hanifin and/ or Monahan should be moved for good young players and their cap space replaced with more useful core guys to help stock our bare prospect pool and go for that 1C/ scoring upgrade we need

It's obviously a work in progress. That shouldn't mean give up and start from scratch. I never made us out to be a legit contender, I wouldn't put us into the top 5-6 teams in the league and I don't think there's a lot of rational fans that would.

If the right deal came along for Monahan and/or Hanifin I would be open to it, but that deal needs to include a clear upgrade at the 1C position. Not a draft pick out of the top 5. Not a 19 year old with some nice junior numbers. Not a RFA coming off one nice season. A clear upgrade.

The Flames have their window, Gaudreau and Giordano's contracts expire at the end of 21-22. Take your shots until then and then you reevaluate.

 

[CatchyTune]

Georgedano and Monahan to Toronto for Marner.

Then Gaudreau, Bennett to Buffalo for Eichel.

Sign Hall

New core:

Thachuk - Eichel - Lindholm
Hall - Backlund - Marner

These are disgustingly terrible for Toronto and Buffalo.

Typical thinking where you only consider your own teams needs and not the other. Except the value is also atrocious.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I agree that we only need to shake things up if we lose the play-in but that’s honestly pretty likely at this point. If the Jets manage their lines correctly they will be a match-up nightmare for our forwards. Scheifele head-to-head against Monahan is a nightmare and then some combination of Ehlers/Laine/Connor/Wheeler against our 2nd line will be close enough that our depth scoring can’t overcome their high scoring forwards imo. A classic case of not being able to consistently contain other teams top guys or score enough to win, something we’ve always seen from this core

You compare the offense but blatantly ignore the massive defensive difference? Besides how is a 2nd line of Laine - Eakin - Ehlers better than Mangiapane - Backlund - Tkachuk?
Laine and Chucky is a wash, Backlund is better defensively than Ehlers and slightly worse offensively, and Mang is better than Eakin. When you compare the 1st lines tou have Gaudreau > Connor, Scheifele > Monahan, and Lindholm = Wheeler. This will be a 5 game series decided by Hellebuyk's ability to make up for his teams lacking defensive depth. It is probably the most interesting series and the biggest coin-flip