Value of: Retooling/rebuilding the Flames

[Forge]

That one is interesting. What are the contract statuses? Is that basically better forward + worse defense for better defense + worse forward?

Zacha 2.25M for the next two, RFA. Slightly less than what Bennett makes.

Butcher 3.733 for 2, then UFA.

Sheds about 1.5 in cap for the Flames.

 

[Forge]

Nah, not enough. Would only move Hanifin if we were getting AZ's 1st as a base (assuming they don't win the lottery).

If that pick is 10, he's not worth it for me. I'd rather gamble on the rookies or go after someone like Dunn from the Blues for Vanouver's pick or try to capitalize on cap issues from other teams.

I have just seen in other threads that you guys wanted a Center, so I thought that Zacha at least made sense in that regard.

 

[Bond]

Zacha 2.25M for the next two, RFA. Slightly less than what Bennett makes.
Butcher 3.733 for 2, then UFA.
Sheds about 1.5 in cap for the Flames.

I don't think it is a bad base at all but do you think Zacha could anchor a 2nd line on a decent team?

 

[CraigsList]

If that pick is 10, he's not worth it for me. I'd rather gamble on the rookies or go after someone like Dunn from the Blues for Vanouver's pick or try to capitalize on cap issues from other teams.

I have just seen in other threads that you guys wanted a Center, so I thought that Zacha at least made sense in that regard.

We need a game breaking center, a #1 center that can take over the game. There's only a handful of those right now in the game, so it's hard to find that via trade.

Zacha, in my opinion, is most definitely better than Bennett, but he is not better than Monahan, Backlund, and Lindholm (when Lindholm plays center). With that in mind, it doesn't really solve what we're looking for. Plus, we are trying to shed cap space, not a lateral move like this one.

Also, Hanifin's contract is much better than Butcher.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Bennett > Zacha

If Bennett received 16 minutes a game like Zacha has the past two seasons he would handedly out produce him. Zero interest in Butcher for Hanifin as well.

 

[Just Linda]

Can’t believe how many Flames threads there are in the first few pages. We’re talking about hundreds upon hundreds of posts trying to rip the entire core apart and in exchange the Flames get to instantly become a Lottery team, fantastic.

One calendar year ago the Flames won 50 games. Check that, they won 50 ROW games. This is not a team that’s rebuilding. Sure they stumbled in the playoffs with the worst strategy from first time playoff coach Bill Peters. The dude had no idea how important the middle of the ice was in the playoffs and he never relented from his failure of a strategy.

Long story short, the Flames will rebuild when Mark Giordano is traded or retires. Treliving owes it to #5 to continue adding and building until he’s gone from the picture. I think people will be surprised to see the Flames new #1 line at work in the summer here, Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane have incredible chemistry together and Gaudreau was starting to look like his old self. I wouldn’t count this team out yet.

50 wins but how many playoff wins? When everything clicked perfect, 35 at the time Gio had elite career years, every player had their career year.

Nobody doubts their a good team, nobody believes they ads a contender though. Even with that 50 win season, they has clear flaws which sunk them. Peters was a big part of those flaws but now they have to try to replicate that success with Gio at 37/38 and no improvements to the team.

There's a reason people don't make these threads about other teams like Montreal, Detroit, or Anaheim. Calgary can be contenders with the assets they have, it's just not there yet.

 

[Nanuuk]

Not really. Look at each of their respective core players.

Should I have aid retool to make you feel better? I suggested they build around Tkachuk/Lindholm/Andersson, but can the core they have be a cup winner down the line? If they draft and develop a couple elite pieces and add them to what they have they will be much better off.

In 2019-20 the Flames finished with 79 points, the Leafs 81.

In 2018-19 the Flames finished with 107 points, the Leafs 100

Seems to me the Flames are every bit as good as the Leafs. Perhaps you are over valuing your team? Maybe re-tool a bit?

 

[CatchyTune]

In 2019-20 the Flames finished with 79 points, the Leafs 81.

In 2018-19 the Flames finished with 107 points, the Leafs 100

Seems to me the Flames are every bit as good as the Leafs. Perhaps you are over valuing your team? Maybe re-tool a bit?

You brought up Toronto not me.

Points in the standings are one thing. But you have to take in consideration teams foundation and core.

Is a core of Matthews/Marner/Tavares/Nylander/Rielly better than a core of Tkachuk/Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm/Giordano? Age and contracts in consideration.

But this isnt about Toronto. Do you think this flames core can be cup contenders? Because thats the point of the thread.

 

[Forge]

I don't think it is a bad base at all but do you think Zacha could anchor a 2nd line on a decent team?

Depends on the Devils fan you ask. Some think that he can. I'm not convinced, but even I have to admit that he's gotten better each year, and he actually looked competent when put with skill players last year in Bratt and Gusev, but it was a super limited sample. He had 8 points in 11 games I think with those two, and the peripherals were very encouraging; > 50% CF (which given how bad the team was, is really good), higher scoring chances for than given up, one fewer high dangers for than against. When he was paired with guys like Merkley, Simmonds, Wood and others, his CF was 38 (lol), and his line gave up more than 100 scoring chances than they created at 5 on 5 lol. It was nasty.

So I get why some Devils fans are hopeful based on that. Personally? I think even if he is more capable / better than he has been, he's still a third line center for us with Jack and Nico ahead of him and I think he probably doesn't get much better than that 45-55 point range? And I think that's the tippy top of his ceiling, so unlikely to be something he's getting consistently (well, the 55 end anyway). We have Travis for another year, and then I would guess a very similar NHL role for McLeod moving forward, so I think losing Zacha isn't that big of a net loss for the Devils moving forward. I think he's a 3c with strong PKing ability, and while I think his offense will be better than he has put up in the past (and his PPG has improved every year of his career, so there is a positive there), I don't see a 2c being likely if you want me to be brutally honest. Because I see him as that 3c type, I'm one of the Devils fans who have been looking to move off him for a defender because I think removing Zacha and replacing him with McLeod / Rooney is a smaller loss (because of the specific role I believe Zacha would have for the team) than the gain we get from whatever LHD we may get in a trade for him because the defense is so very bad.

 

[User1996]

You brought up Toronto not me.

Points in the standings are one thing. But you have to take in consideration teams foundation and core.

Is a core of Matthews/Marner/Tavares/Nylander/Rielly better than a core of Tkachuk/Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm/Giordano? Age and contracts in consideration.

But this isnt about Toronto. Do you think this flames core can be cup contenders? Because thats the point of the thread.

Are they on the level of a Tampa, Colorado, etc? No. Are they a team, as built, that’s good enough to perennially be in the playoffs? Absolutely. And I don’t know how anyone in their right mind think that a rebuild is realistic at this point.

The argument of career years for our exceeding expectations last year are always brought up. But what about career lows being explanatory for our frustrating performance this year? The truth is that the Flames are somewhere in between what they were in 18/19 and 19/20.

With a top 6 addition (either C or RW), and a few minor tweaks elsewhere, this team absolutely has the potential to win some rounds of playoff hockey.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

What's the cost for Backlund and/or Hanifin?

 

[User1996]

What's the cost for Backlund and/or Hanifin?

I would move Hanifin for a top 6 C or RW.

I don’t know if it makes sense to move Backlund at this point though.

At the end of the day I think the Flames will want to remain competitive. It doesn’t make much sense to sell pieces off for packages centred around futures.

 

[CraigsList]

What's the cost for Backlund and/or Hanifin?

I'd do Hanifin and Jankowski for Florida's 2020 1st (2021 if Florida wins the lottery), Borgstrom, Sceviour, and a cond. 2021 3rd/4th (3rd if Jankowski plays 50+ games or hits 20 points).

 

[CatchyTune]

I'd do Hanifin and Jankowski for Florida's 2020 1st (2021 if Florida wins the lottery), Borgstrom, Sceviour, and a cond. 2021 3rd/4th (3rd if Jankowski plays 50+ games or hits 20 points).

Florida is sitting at the, 15th pick I believe? I dont think Hanifin is worth that high of a pick right now. I also dont know why Florida makes a move for a LHD. And I like Hanifin.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

I would move Hanifin for a top 6 C or RW.

I don’t know if it makes sense to move Backlund at this point though.

At the end of the day I think the Flames will want to remain competitive. It doesn’t make much sense to sell pieces off for packages centred around futures.

We just traded our 2C in Trocheck so that's why I asked about Backlund.

As for RW, we are extremely young, only Tippett and eventually Denisenko, who prefers to play on right side.

our main teadeable piece would be our 1st if we dont re-sign Haula as a stopgap like 2C.

I'd do Hanifin and Jankowski for Florida's 2020 1st (2021 if Florida wins the lottery), Borgstrom, Sceviour, and a cond. 2021 3rd/4th (3rd if Jankowski plays 50+ games or hits 20 points).

Not much use for Jankowski/Sceviour part but unsure if Hanifin does have thay type of value? Would they actually move him with Gio nearing the end? I know you have some good LD guys on the rise though.

EDIT- ya I guess he does have that type of value, 23, good contract and decent defensive/offensive numbers.

Florida is sitting at the, 15th pick I believe? I dont think Hanifin is worth that high of a pick right now. I also dont know why Florida makes a move for a LHD. And I like Hanifin.

Tallon has stated the need for a defensive LD for a while now.
Most will look at our left side and see Yandle, Matheson and Stillman but both Yandle and Matheson aren't top pair caliber. Weegar played the left side as a RD with Ekblad the majority of the year.

Ideally we move one of Yandle/Matheson to make room for a #3/4 LD

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Are they on the level of a Tampa, Colorado, etc? No. Are they a team, as built, that’s good enough to perennially be in the playoffs? Absolutely. And I don’t know how anyone in their right mind think that a rebuild is realistic at this point.

The argument of career years for our exceeding expectations last year are always brought up. But what about career lows being explanatory for our frustrating performance this year? The truth is that the Flames are somewhere in between what they were in 18/19 and 19/20.

With a top 6 addition (either C or RW), and a few minor tweaks elsewhere, this team absolutely has the potential to win some rounds of playoff hockey.

This mindset is what has us sitting as a perennial borderline playoff team again. Did we not learn our lesson in the Iggy era? Is our team good enough to (potentially) win some rounds? Yes. Is our team a legit contender year after year? No. Do we have a shot against the Colorado’s, St Louis’s, Vegas’s, Boston’s, Washington’s, Tampa’s? No. Why do we settle for this ‘a rebuild is unrealistic, we’re slightly above average with a chance to occasionally win some rounds every few years’. We don’t even need to rebuild, just re-tool a few key pieces and take some chances on young players so we can try to build a legit contender.


Also, how are we gonna be able to add a top-6 player this off-season with no cap space? Even assuming we let both of Hamonic and Brodie go we have 17 mil in space. We have only 4 dmen under contract (Gio, Rasmus, Hanifin and Valimaki), around 3 mil for Mangiapane, and no backup goalie. Assuming we have 14 mil after Mang, we need to sign 4 dmen, 2-3 forwards, and a goalie.

 

[CraigsList]

Not much use for Jankowski/Sceviour part but unsure if Hanifin does have thay type of value? Would they actually move him with Gio nearing the end? I know you have some good LD guys on the rise though.

EDIT- ya I guess he does have that type of value, 23, good contract and decent defensive/offensive numbers.

I included Sceviour because Calgary could use a bottom 6 RW on a cheap cap hit since we are most likely UFA hunting with Taylor Hall. We could use also another PKer since Frolik left, even more if Jankowski was traded too. Jankowski had an off year, but he could probably find his game again on a different team. I think this season was an anomaly.

Borgstrom would be a good acquisition and let him season one season with Stockton. However, if he is not exempt from the ED then this may be a bad trade for Calgary.

EDIT: Would also depend on where the 2020 1st round pick falls.

 

[User1996]

This mindset is what has us sitting as a perennial borderline playoff team again. Did we not learn our lesson in the Iggy era? Is our team good enough to (potentially) win some rounds? Yes. Is our team a legit contender year after year? No. Do we have a shot against the Colorado’s, St Louis’s, Vegas’s, Boston’s, Washington’s, Tampa’s? No. Why do we settle for this ‘a rebuild is unrealistic, we’re slightly above average with a chance to occasionally win some rounds every few years’. We don’t even need to rebuild, just re-tool a few key pieces and take some chances on young players so we can try to build a legit contender.


Also, how are we gonna be able to add a top-6 player this off-season with no cap space? Even assuming we let both of Hamonic and Brodie go we have 17 mil in space. We have only 4 dmen under contract (Gio, Rasmus, Hanifin and Valimaki), around 3 mil for Mangiapane, and no backup goalie. Assuming we have 14 mil after Mang, we need to sign 4 dmen, 2-3 forwards, and a goalie.

What mindset is that exactly? Realizing that hockey is a business, and it makes no sense from that standpoint to continually move very good NHL players for futures/magic beans/packages until you have a roster that resembles Boston, Tampa, etc.? It’s a pipe dream. People don’t realize how many things would have to go right for that to be a successful route.

Would we not rather try and build around a core that has a few holes, yet should still manage to compete for a divisional playoff spot every year? Especially when that core is still quite young. I know what NHL owners/GM’s would do.

There is a misconception among fans that the only way to build a contender is to pin their hopes on young players, instead of realizing what they have and finding solutions to build a contender from a “good” team by complementing existing pieces.

As far as your concerns with our cap, I really don’t feel the need to address that because 17 mil is a very workable number, especially if we could move Hanifin for a player who fills a need, because Valimaki would be able to replace him quite well.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

50 wins but how many playoff wins? When everything clicked perfect, 35 at the time Gio had elite career years, every player had their career year.

Nobody doubts their a good team, nobody believes they ads a contender though. Even with that 50 win season, they has clear flaws which sunk them. Peters was a big part of those flaws but now they have to try to replicate that success with Gio at 37/38 and no improvements to the team.

There's a reason people don't make these threads about other teams like Montreal, Detroit, or Anaheim. Calgary can be contenders with the assets they have, it's just not there yet.

This doesnt even make sense. None of those teams are even remotely comparable to Calgary. Detroit and Anaheim are in the middle of a renuild and tanking for picks, and Montreal lost. They have a crap ton of money locked up in aging contracts with lots of term and are trying to rebuild. People dont make threads about teams with clear paths.

Calgary is a lot more along the lines of Winnipeg from a year ago, elite wingers, center depth issues, and impending defensive depth issues

 

[Just Linda]

This doesnt even make sense. None of those teams are even remotely comparable to Calgary. Detroit and Anaheim are in the middle of a renuild and tanking for picks, and Montreal lost. They have a crap ton of money locked up in aging contracts with lots of term and are trying to rebuild. People dont make threads about teams with clear paths.

Calgary is a lot more along the lines of Winnipeg from a year ago, elite wingers, center depth issues, and impending defensive depth issues

For goodness sake, if your gonna quote me to disagree, please actually disagree.

 

[Dubcity]

Holy shit this thread is cringe worthy.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

For goodness sake, if your gonna quote me to disagree, please actually disagree.

Do you think Winnipeg should rebuild? Not sure how I'm not disagreeing. There is a reason Flames tried to acquire Kadri and Trocheck this season. There is a reason they were in on Stone and rumored to be in on Hall again. There is a reason Winnipeg renred 2C's 2 years in a row. Both teams are boarderline cup contenders with relatively young cores. Blowing up and gambling on being a a Tampa or a Florida is just a stupid decision. A smart man makes safe gambles.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

What mindset is that exactly? Realizing that hockey is a business, and it makes no sense from that standpoint to continually move very good NHL players for futures/magic beans/packages until you have a roster that resembles Boston, Tampa, etc.? It’s a pipe dream. People don’t realize how many things would have to go right for that to be a successful route.

Would we not rather try and build around a core that has a few holes, yet should still manage to compete for a divisional playoff spot every year? Especially when that core is still quite young. I know what NHL owners/GM’s would do.

There is a misconception among fans that the only way to build a contender is to pin their hopes on young players, instead of realizing what they have and finding solutions to build a contender from a “good” team by complementing existing pieces.

As far as your concerns with our cap, I really don’t feel the need to address that because 17 mil is a very workable number, especially if we could move Hanifin for a player who fills a need, because Valimaki would be able to replace him quite well.

We have very different mindsets then. Your ‘hockey is a business, we need to be conservative with our assets to make sure we’re always competitive’ is not gonna build a winning team. Also, when have the Flames ‘continually moved assets for younger picks/ players?’ We started to 7 years ago when we traded Iggy but then we started trading multiple early-round picks to try and jumpstart the process. And we are now a middling team with a bare prospect pool and a declining captain. We don’t need a complete rebuild, as much of our core is still very young, but we do need a retool. I agree that Hanifin is expendable, but I don’t think we can get the top-6 forward we want in return for him. Moving players for picks, restoring the cupboards so that we can eventually become a legit contender with our decent young core, and getting 5+ mil in cap space to pursue another impact player makes us a way better team than sticking with our average top-9, average top-4 and inconsistent goaltending.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mang
Dube-Ryan-Bennett
Lucic-____-Reider
Gio Rasmus
Hanifin ______
Valimaki _____
Kylington

And one mid-1st this year.

Or:

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Hall ($10mil/year)
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mang
Dube-Cozens-Bennett
Lucic/Reider-Ryan-Thompson
Gio Rasmus
Valimaki _______
Kylington Jokiharju

And the 8th overall and another 1st this year

Really doesn’t look much worse to me. We’ve spent the exact same cap in both rosters. In the first we need a 4C and 2 RD’s. In the second we just need one RD and maybe one more depth C if Cozens isn’t ready.

 

[hanshin44]

We're not even at the play-in round yet but Flames fans are already pushing the eject button on half their roster.
I mean just glancing at the stats I'd say goaltending is an issue you guys should fix, but what do I know.
At the very least, stop overreacting. Anything can happen in the playoffs and you're not going to make any moves before the draft anyway.

 

[Just Linda]

Do you think Winnipeg should rebuild? Not sure how I'm not disagreeing. There is a reason Flames tried to acquire Kadri and Trocheck this season. There is a reason they were in on Stone and rumored to be in on Hall again. There is a reason Winnipeg renred 2C's 2 years in a row. Both teams are boarderline cup contenders with relatively young cores. Blowing up and gambling on being a a Tampa or a Florida is just a stupid decision. A smart man makes safe gambles.

I think that's a good example of why.

Going into last season, Winnipeg had a better 1C than Calgary, had a better starting goalie than Calgary, had better dmen than Calgary. Everyone knew what their weakness was, they needed to add a 2c.

Buff left, they had Morrisey to fill his role. Not a perfect replacement sure but more than capable. Gio is near the end of his career, his decline is happening soon, who takes over for him? Andersson? He's not quite ready.

Say Calgary added Kadri and another top 6 forward at the price of a dman and picks (it was Brodie that was supposed to go back eh?), would they be contenders at that point? Hmm, maybe outside shot contenders but not enough to bet on. What about the year after when Gio is 38 or when he's 39 or when he's 40, who's stepping up and carrying the team? Hopefully one of the (really good) young guys on the roster do but they are gonna have a lump year getting ready for it, it's not going to be instantaneous success.

Calgary at their very very best wasn't good enough to make a cup run. They haven't improved since that 50 wins and their best player isn't getting younger.