Value of: Retooling/rebuilding the Flames

CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
Jan 8, 2016
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no my point is you don’t trade Gaudreau for anything less than a superstar or top 3 pick. Not now. Not while he has two years left.

What have Barkov or Eichel done to the players around him that Gaudreau hasn’t? What success have those guys had that Gaudreau hasn’t? Have they led their NHL teams to conference titles? No. Have they won NCAA or WJCs? No. Have they turned 40 point players into PPG players? No. Have their teams made the playoffs 3/5 seasons despite having the second worst sv% over that time period? No. Has either guy had a 99 point season? No.

You know who’s insane? Posters who wouldn’t trade their mid first and Josh Brook for Gaudreau. That is who is insane.
When did I mention Josh Brook and a 1st?

I'm saying he isnt close to Barkov/Eichel. All those accomplishments are cool, but relative to age, position and contract status, he doesnt return a franchise player like Eichel or Barkov.
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
When did I mention Josh Brook and a 1st?

I'm saying he isnt close to Barkov/Eichel. All those accomplishments are cool, but relative to age, position and contract status, he doesnt return a franchise player like Eichel or Barkov.
You realize Barkov is only 2 years younger and is a UFA the same summer as Gaudreau.
Im curious do you think Panarin is worth more than Barkov/Eichel? 1 year ago Panarin was ranked 1 spot below Gaudreau for top LW's in the league. Like Panarin, Gaudreau also drives his line and is the main reason for its success (and in the case of this year its failure). The difference in skill between Panarin and Gaudreau is not astronomical at all and he should very much have the value of an elite player.
 

CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
Jan 8, 2016
5,757
4,611
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You realize Barkov is only 2 years younger and is a UFA the same summer as Gaudreau.
Im curious do you think Panarin is worth more than Barkov/Eichel? 1 year ago Panarin was ranked 1 spot below Gaudreau for top LW's in the league. Like Panarin, Gaudreau also drives his line and is the main reason for its success (and in the case of this year its failure). The difference in skill between Panarin and Gaudreau is not astronomical at all and he should very much have the value of an elite player.
Trade value wise, I dont think Panarin is above Eichel just due to age, but I think Panarin is a bit better than him.

I wouldnt compare Panarin to Gaudreau, Panarin had a Hart caliber season playing to a 113 point pace. He was also on a line with Ryan Strome and Jesper Fast.

The difference is with Gaudreau, is he is coming off a 68 point pace season, and is a UFA in 2 years. Nobody is trading an elite player for Gaudreau, unless it is a "hockey trade" where its someone comparable to Gaudreau, skill and contract wise, wanting a shakeup or change of scenery.
 

RasmusAndersson

Registered User
Oct 19, 2013
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In a world where theres a good chance they don't bounce back to their 18-19 forms. One down year isn't enough to plummet their values but two in a row would do it. If a 37 year old Giordano isn't able to do the heavy lifting for this team next year then it is a definite down year. Monahan putting up another 30 goal 60 point season won't boost his value. I've already said that we should not move Gaudreau, he's the kind of talent that tanking teams hope to get. We need to pay him whatever he wants to stay and him walking is a risk we will have to take if we want to have a truly competitive team in a few years.

This is the offseason to do it. Hopefully when we get bounced convincingly by Winnipeg this year Treliving will see the writing on the wall and do something or get fired for someone who can make those decisions.
Exactly this. Flames fans counting on Monahan suddenly becoming a reliable C are lying to themselves. He can up good numbers but it becomes more and more obvious how much of a passenger he is and that he isn’t the answer for the Flames. Even on the second line I would prefer Lindholm at 2C (Tkachuk-Lindholm-Mangiapane) because Monahan wouldn’t be able to handle the defensive responsibilities we need for that line to take the pressure off Gaudreau’s line. If Gaudreau is with Monahan they can’t get it done against top competition, and if Monahan and Gaudreau are on separate lines we couldn’t use either line in defensive roles.
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
Trade value wise, I dont think Panarin is above Eichel just due to age, but I think Panarin is a bit better than him.

I wouldnt compare Panarin to Gaudreau, Panarin had a Hart caliber season playing to a 113 point pace. He was also on a line with Ryan Strome and Jesper Fast.

The difference is with Gaudreau, is he is coming off a 68 point pace season, and is a UFA in 2 years. Nobody is trading an elite player for Gaudreau, unless it is a "hockey trade" where its someone comparable to Gaudreau, skill and contract wise, wanting a shakeup or change of scenery.
Last year Gaudreau was in the running for Hart all season until the teams clear decline after the all star break. At that time he has 29 goals and 73 points in the first 51 games, thats a pace of 46 goals and 117 points. How is that not comparable? Anyone who thinks Gaudreau is a 68 point player is an idiot the same way Nylander wasnt a 41 point player like he paced for last year.
 

Tkachuk Norris

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Jun 22, 2012
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Last year Gaudreau was in the running for Hart all season until the teams clear decline after the all star break. At that time he has 29 goals and 73 points in the first 51 games, thats a pace of 46 goals and 117 points. How is that not comparable? Anyone who thinks Gaudreau is a 68 point player is an idiot the same way Nylander wasnt a 41 point player like he paced for last year.

agreeed. HF is so what have you done for me lately. Gaudreau had his worst season. And like I posted above, was still 20th in the league in creating scoring chances.

Pat Kane Last year “honestly Johnny does thing I only wish I could do”
Nate Mackinnon who is the one player in the league you would like to play with? (this question was after Nate played with Johnny at the World Cup. “Johnny Gaudreau”
Denver’s coach Jim Montgomery after getting crushed by BC in college “that Gaudreau kid is honestly going to be the next Datsyuk”

people that actually know the game and watch it know Johnny is a special talent. And they’ve known it for a long time. People don’t forget to play hockey. He had a bad year and his one ice shooting percentage was terrible, but anyone that thinks he isn’t a Jarome Iginla calibre talent doesn’t have that much knowledge about the game IMO, or more likely just hasn’t watched the guy for more that a few viewings and probably just against their favourite team where they hardly pay attention to the other team.

The amount of virtual ink people on this site have wasted proving how clueless they are about this player has lasted about 7 seasons and it shows no signs of stopping.
Gaudreau has one bad season and everyone jumps at their confirmation bias they’ve been holding going to back to the days when ‘Flames fans are delusional, Gaudreau is Nathan Gerbe at best’ was a common narrative on this site.
 
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GOilers88

Upside Down Canadian Flag
Dec 24, 2016
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agreeed. HF is so what have you done for me lately. Gaudreau had his worst season. And like I posted above, was still 20th in the league in creating scoring chances.

Pat Kane Last year “honestly Johnny does thing I only wish I could do”
Nate Mackinnon who is the one player in the league you would like to play with? (this question was after Nate played with Johnny at the World Cup. “Johnny Gaudreau”
Denver’s coach Jim Montgomery after getting crushed by BC in college “that Gaudreau kid is honestly going to be the next Datsyuk”

people that actually know the game and watch it know Johnny is a special talent. And they’ve known it for a long time. People don’t forget to play hockey. He had a bad year and his one ice shooting percentage was terrible, but anyone that thinks he isn’t a Jarome Iginla calibre talent doesn’t have that much knowledge about the game IMO, or more likely just hasn’t watched the guy for more that a few viewings and probably just against their favourite team where they hardly pay attention to the other team.

The amount of virtual ink people on this site have wasted proving how clueless they are about this player has lasted about 7 seasons and it shows no signs of stopping.
Gaudreau has one bad season and everyone jumps at their confirmation bias they’ve been holding going to back to the days when ‘Flames fans are delusional, Gaudreau is Nathan Gerbe at best’ was a common narrative on this site.
You don't really stand behind the Datsyuk comparison do you? Even compared to Iginla I have a hard time. I can vividly recall Iggy absolutely taking over games all on his own. I'll admit I don't see all of Calgary's games and I could easily just be foggy, but I don't recall Johnny Hockey having that same individual impact, let alone in post season hockey.

To be clear I think he's an amazing hockey player, just not there.
 

Tkachuk Norris

Registered User
Jun 22, 2012
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You don't really stand behind the Datsyuk comparison do you?

watch Johnny and watch Datsyuk.

Obviously Datsyuk is a C and that comes with different responsibility. But offensively they are pretty much identical. They both slow the game down and have such strong skating that their lateral agility is really unparalleled. The other team is forced to retreat even if he picks the puck up in the D zone because he’s about one of a dozen players that when he picks up the puck the other team is like ‘oh %#*+’ That combined with his vision is what makes Johnny special and allowed him to put up 99 points and literally double Elias Lindholm career production.

According to HF Johnny must have gotten 99 points off empty netters, deflections off his shin pads and own goals that he got credit for. Like he lucked into a 99 point season even though other players who are “wayyyyy better” than Gaudreau have produced way less and had less individual success, yet don’t face the criticism he does. For some reason. Mostly I think it’s because people are still bitter and don’t want to admit they had no idea what the hell they were talking about with this player ie Nathan Gerbe.

and no that was Jim Montgomery who made the comparison, I just think it’s incredibly accurate.
 

GOilers88

Upside Down Canadian Flag
Dec 24, 2016
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watch Johnny and watch Datsyuk.

Obviously Datsyuk is a C and that comes with different responsibility. But offensively they are pretty much identical. They both slow the game down and have such strong skating that their lateral agility is really unparalleled. The other team is forced to retreat even if he picks the puck up in the D zone because he’s about one of a dozen players that when he picks up the puck the other team is like oh %#*+ That combined with his vision is what makes Johnny special and allowed him to put up 99 points and literally double Elias Lindholm career production.

According to HF Johnny must have gotten 99 points off empty netters, deflections off his shin pads and own goals that he got credit for. Like he lucked into a 99 point season even though other players who are “wayyyyy better” than Gaudreau have produced way less and had less individual success, yet don’t face the criticism he does. For some reason.

and no that was Jim Montgomery who made the comparison, I just think it’s incredibly accurate.
I wasn't trying to slag him by any means. I understand who made the comparison I just don't know if I could truly compare anyone to Datsyuk, personally. The guy was an alien. I don't agree with people who think he gets lucky either, cause that kind of talent doesn't really require luck.
 

Mobiandi

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
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If I see Dylan Cozens come up one more time in a proposal for Gaudreau...
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
Keller and Schmaltz have both spent significant time at RW.
I should clarify, Calgary has an abundance of left handed wingers and only 1 right handed winger (that sometimes plays center). Keller and Schmaltz are both left handed wingers. Neither of them help fix rhe Flames disproportionate wings and neither are reliable enough at center to replace loosing Monahan
 

Baksfamous112

Registered User
Jul 21, 2016
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Last year Gaudreau was in the running for Hart all season until the teams clear decline after the all star break. At that time he has 29 goals and 73 points in the first 51 games, thats a pace of 46 goals and 117 points. How is that not comparable? Anyone who thinks Gaudreau is a 68 point player is an idiot the same way Nylander wasnt a 41 point player like he paced for last year.

No one value him as a 68 points player. Gaudreau’s size, position and inability to take over a game when it matters will always hurt his value a little and the main reason why he will never, ever bring back an elite C or D.

Add to that that in terms of contract, he’s in no-man land - Can’t be resigned until next year - on top of that many teams that could be interested will probably be tight and won’t have the money in two years unless they sacrifice other assets and you got all the ingredient to really tank Gaudreau’s value... until at least next year where you can negotiate an extension with him before throwing multiple high end assets Calgary’s way.
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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I should clarify, Calgary has an abundance of left handed wingers and only 1 right handed winger (that sometimes plays center). Keller and Schmaltz are both left handed wingers. Neither of them help fix rhe Flames disproportionate wings and neither are reliable enough at center to replace loosing Monahan
Schmaltz is a RHS and can play C. It didn’t work in AZ but it should have. Our coaching staff has a terrible track record with centers. Domi failed at center in AZ then immediately excelled at C in MTL. Galchenyuk had his best season in MTL as a C. He failed at C in AZ and didn’t get his career back on track until he was returned to C in MIN. Dylan Strome was made a LW in AZ. Couldn’t play center here. Was dealt to CHI and immediately had success at C.

I wouldn’t be even a little bit surprised if Schmaltz was a successful, productive center on another NHL team.
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
No one value him as a 68 points player. Gaudreau’s size, position and inability to take over a game when it matters will always hurt his value a little and the main reason why he will never, ever bring back an elite C or D.

Add to that that in terms of contract, he’s in no-man land - Can’t be resigned until next year - on top of that many teams that could be interested will probably be tight and won’t have the money in two years unless they sacrifice other assets and you got all the ingredient to really tank Gaudreau’s value... until at least next year where you can negotiate an extension with him before throwing multiple high end assets Calgary’s way.
This is exactly why i'm highly against trading him, no team in the league is going to offer what his actual value is
 
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Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
Schmaltz is a RHS and can play C. It didn’t work in AZ but it should have. Our coaching staff has a terrible track record with centers. Domi failed at center in AZ then immediately excelled at C in MTL. Galchenyuk had his best season in MTL as a C. He failed at C in AZ and didn’t get his career back on track until he was returned to C in MIN. Dylan Strome was made a LW in AZ. Couldn’t play center here. Was dealt to CHI and immediately had success at C.

I wouldn’t be even a little bit surprised if Schmaltz was a successful, productive center on another NHL team.
Fair point, I just dont see Calgary dealing their 1C without a clear upgrade coming back
 

RasmusAndersson

Registered User
Oct 19, 2013
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ergo Calgary isn't trading their 1C.
Ergo we remain an average team too scared to make the moves we need to win. Keller is a better hockey player than Monahan without question. Just watch the games, Monahan almost never creates his own chances over the past 2-3 seasons. Keller and Gaudreau would be a dynamic combo that would help take Gaudreau to the next level. Monahan definitely has his strengths but he isn’t nearly dynamic enough to play with Johnny.
Adding Keller to a core of Gaudreau Lindholm and Tkachuk is a huge upgrade from Monahan. We can’t be so stuck in this holding pattern where we’re too scared to move anyone without a clear upgrade, because that’s never gonna happen. Especially when we have no more expendable picks or prospects of value.

having said that we can’t take on all 13 mil of salary in this trade and give up only ~9 mil. We’d need Arizona to take on more salary because of Schmaltz’s awful long-term contract

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Keller
Tkachuk-Schmaltz-Mangiapane
Dube-Backlund-_______
Lucic-Ryan-Reider
Gio Brodie

Is better than

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane
Dube-Ryan-Bennett
Lucic-____-Reider
 

Sparky93

Registered User
Dec 30, 2010
7,004
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Ergo we remain an average team too scared to make the moves we need to win. Keller is a better hockey player than Monahan without question. Just watch the games, Monahan almost never creates his own chances over the past 2-3 seasons. Keller and Gaudreau would be a dynamic combo that would help take Gaudreau to the next level. Monahan definitely has his strengths but he isn’t nearly dynamic enough to play with Johnny.
Adding Keller to a core of Gaudreau Lindholm and Tkachuk is a huge upgrade from Monahan. We can’t be so stuck in this holding pattern where we’re too scared to move anyone without a clear upgrade, because that’s never gonna happen. Especially when we have no more expendable picks or prospects of value.

having said that we can’t take on all 13 mil of salary in this trade and give up only ~9 mil. We’d need Arizona to take on more salary because of Schmaltz’s awful long-term contract

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Keller
Tkachuk-Schmaltz-Mangiapane
Dube-Backlund-_______
Lucic-Ryan-Reider
Gio Brodie

Is better than

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane
Dube-Ryan-Bennett
Lucic-____-Reider
Have you even watched these players play? Keller isn't an upgrade on Monahan currently, maybe not even in the future. In fact it's debatable if he's even currently better than Schmaltz and Monahan is lightyears better than him. Watch players play, save time on embarrassing proposals.
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
I wasn't trying to slag him by any means. I understand who made the comparison I just don't know if I could truly compare anyone to Datsyuk, personally. The guy was an alien. I don't agree with people who think he gets lucky either, cause that kind of talent doesn't really require luck.
Ill clarify something Datsyuk was a generational talent. Gaudreau's offensive talent is very similar to Datsyuk's. The difference is Datsyuk was also a multi time Selke winnger for his fantastic defensive game
 

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