Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - If the dog days had dog days

[Andy99]

The 2019-20 Penguins prospectus: Tristan Jarry

Title should read: “Jack Johnson”...mistake

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I think teams probably want a 1st for the privilege of taking JJ on. If it were as easy as moving Rust and JJ together, it'd probably have already been done IMO.

Rust's a good piece, but if a team's taking them both on they're paying 6.75 mil for Rust and a below replacement level defenseman. That doesn't seem very appealing.

I'm not so sure on your first paragraph. I believe JR doesn't want to lose Rust and has been including every sweetener to think of EXCEPT him. Every GM knows JR has to make a move, so if they're smart they'll wait him out.

And I recognize that's a lot of money tied up in 2 players but smart teams know how to weaponize cap space. There's a market for Rust and maybe there are teams who just don't want to deal w/ the Pens directly and "help them out". But they'd surely take Rust if receiving them from another franchise.

 

[SEALBound]

The 2019-20 Penguins prospectus: Tristan Jarry

Title should read: “Jack Johnson”...mistake

I appreciate the throwback shout out to Ron Stackhouse.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm not so sure on your first paragraph. I believe JR doesn't want to lose Rust and has been including every sweetener to think of EXCEPT him. Every GM knows JR has to make a move, so if they're smart they'll wait him out.

And I recognize that's a lot of money tied up in 2 players but smart teams know how to weaponize cap space. There's a market for Rust and maybe there are teams who just don't want to deal w/ the Pens directly and "help them out". But they'd surely take Rust if receiving them from another franchise.

Could be. JR probably thinks JJ can recoup some value this year so he won't have the egg on his face that comes with packaging a valuable asset with a negative value asset (of his own making) for the 2nd year in a row.

I just don't see any team being content with Rust and JJ. A smart team could weaponize cap space and flip Rust for...what? Does Rust return a 1st in an absolute best-case scenario?

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Could be. JR probably thinks JJ can recoup some value this year so he won't have the egg on his face that comes with packaging a valuable asset with a negative value asset (of his own making) for the 2nd year in a row.

I just don't see any team being content with Rust and JJ. A smart team could weaponize cap space and flip Rust for...what? Does Rust return a 1st in an absolute best-case scenario?

I'm not sure Rust gets a 1st but I'm guessing he gets a 2nd based on some trade deadline deals. Teams would see him as a big game playoff performer. Heck I could see the Caps or Bolts trying to acquire him at the deadline

 

[Andy99]

I appreciate the throwback shout out to Ron Stackhouse.

He also could have mentioned the other polarizing #3 who just got traded to Chicago ... Pens need to eliminate “3” from their roster numbers...

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm not sure Rust gets a 1st but I'm guessing he gets a 2nd based on some trade deadline deals. Teams would see him as a big game playoff performer. Heck I could see the Caps or Bolts trying to acquire him at the deadline

Then we've gotta ask ourselves:

If we were another team, would it be worth it to take on Jack Johnson for another 4 years at 3.25 mil all for a measly 2nd round pick?

I sure wouldn't. That's a real bad player for a real long time for a whole lotta money.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

No way would I give up a first to move JJ. Especially if we are gonna be in the lottery(like Pixie predicts ).

Id much rather just go into the season and pray he improves his play his.2nd year here. We need to shelter him.as much as possible and trick a few teams into thinking hes turned a corner lol.

But seriously, just keep the 1st and Rust...get Petts signed and start the season with this lineup. Reassess in a month or two. Could pull off a Scuds for Daley type trade instead of giving up assets to.move JJ.

We should all be rooting for him to do well. Even if it means changing our system in the meantime to minimize his weaknesses.

Most of all, this needs to be the year both Letang and Schultz finally stay healthy. Having both out there at their best along with Dumo and an improved Petts could do wonders.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Then we've gotta ask ourselves:

If we were another team, would it be worth it to take on Jack Johnson for another 4 years at 3.25 mil all for a measly 2nd round pick?

I sure wouldn't. That's a real bad player for a real long time for a whole lotta money.

The deal would have to be predicated on the receiving team not thinking JJ is a bad player, or would be a better player in their conference/system. Because no one's rebuild plan is 5 years out, right? The only professional sports team that actually plans to be bad in 4-5 years is the Pirates, and if they were magically an NHL team, even they wouldn't do it due to the money.

 

[Ryder71]

Gotta say I did not see this JJ debacle continue this long into the summer. That said I still believe we'll be able to find a way before or around the first week of TC to get rid of him. If not and as a last resort we can buy him out. Certainly not the greatest outcome, but maybe less harmful than the other (problematic) alternatives.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think we found out this summer that JJ is not movable w/o significant pieces going back with him. Or crap salary coming back.

Did we though?

He's not some guy with a 4m+ cap hit that is the worst player statistically, this isn't Jeff Finger or anything like that. JJ does stink for us and has for stretches of his career, but his cap hit, being a veteran, he should be movable even with a sweetener of a pick or a throw in prospect.

I think for me, the issue is who he knows and he knows the face of the franchise who also happened to drop a story of why he loves JJ so much.

That is probably why we're stuck with him, not because he's "not movable." He's Sid's pal and Sid likes having him around, while that sucks, I 100% think that's why JJ is still here.

 

[Riptide]

I'm not going to call him a "disaster" but I'm cautious about relying upon him based on a mere 20 games with us.

Remember how good Olek was initially? Remember Hunwick was decent too? We started putting their names in pen around here as if they are some sort of mainstay.

I just need to see more of his game. But if you asked me to buy or sell on his potential here, I'd buy.

I think the Olek example is a better one, due to the fact that his game wasn't drastically different prior/after an injury. Pre injury Hunwick was pretty much what we were looking for given what we signed him to and our overall expectations for him re his contract. Post injury he was nothing of the sort and we were better off with Ruh or whomever in instead of him.

As for Olek, the difference as described by Jesse (or was it R.Wilson or Yohe?) was that the difference in support that he received from the forwards was night and day difference from his time the year before and at the start of last season - which shouldn't really be news to anyone given how trash we were in that regard for most of the season last year. About the only time we weren't trash in that regard was when we lost Letang, which accounts for a big portion of the "good" Gudbranson that we saw.

That said, given that his stats didn't suddenly turn to shit in the POs once Letang was healthy and we still weren't playing great, there's some legitimate reasons to be optimistic that he'll still be effective going forward. Remember we don't need him to post the numbers he did in the RS last season for him to be decent or 'not bad' or a 'negative asset' for us next season... all we need out of him going forward is about what he posted in the POs or roughly 70% of what he posted in the RS last season to still be a positive asset for us next season. And I don't think that's entirely unrealistic to get out of him. And if we can't get it, as we saw with him, there will always be a market for him - and him showing what he did last season even in a 20 game stint shows would only help us out in that regard. Because regardless of what some HF fans want to see their team acquire (a PMD who in @ColePens words who can skate to pressure), GMs still value someone who has Gudbranson's size and plays the gritty game he plays.

 

[Riptide]

The problem isn't trading Johnson, the problem is that the Penguins want to trade Johnson, not take any salary back and not add anything of significance on top of him to move him. In terms of purely "moving" Johnson, you can 100% move him. I absolutely guarantee you can trade him right now. However, "moving him" and "moving him without taking salary back or adding something of significance" are extremely different things.

How many people expected that the Penguins would be able to move Johnson without taking money back or adding something significant? I honestly don't remember anyone who acted like that was anything but a long shot. I thought the best case scenario was something like Johnson and a 2nd or 3rd for Daley, and I feel like that was one of the more optimistic ideas thrown out here.

Depends on the time frame. I said at the time of the signing once we saw how the contract was structured that after yr 2 or better yet yr 3 he'd be moveable without a huge cost to do so or without taking back a ton of salary/cap. But then you're only talking about a 2-3 yr commitment where most of the salary of his contract has already been paid out (his contract pays: 4m, 4m, 3m, 3m, 2.25m). 49.2% is paid to him by the end of yr 2. That's a lot different then trying to do it 1 yr in - especially if you're not willing to take back any salary.

 

[Riptide]

I'm not sure Rust gets a 1st but I'm guessing he gets a 2nd based on some trade deadline deals. Teams would see him as a big game playoff performer. Heck I could see the Caps or Bolts trying to acquire him at the deadline

I don't think he'd get a 1st, but we've seen similar players to Rust (Eller, Shaw, etc) get a pair of 2nds, so I don't think it's unrealistic that he'd fetch a 2nd+. Might not get 2x 2nds due to him not being a center, but given the rest of his abilities, I don't think a 2nd+ is out of the question. And depending on the team and their roster/budget, a 2nd+ for JJ isn't all that unrealistic - especially if they need to pay someone anyway to fill that spot. As I said above, yr2 might be tough, but yr3+ likely wouldn't be all that big of a deal given what blueliner's are costing and what he's paid come yr3+ (8.25m over 3 yrs).

Gotta say I did not see this JJ debacle continue this long into the summer. That said I still believe we'll be able to find a way before or around the first week of TC to get rid of him. If not and as a last resort we can buy him out. Certainly not the greatest outcome, but maybe less harmful than the other (problematic) alternatives.

Did you see the number of prominent RFAs (and even some UFAs) still being unsigned this long into the summer? Because that's what's holding up everything right now.

I think for me, the issue is who he knows and he knows the face of the franchise who also happened to drop a story of why he loves JJ so much.

That is probably why we're stuck with him, not because he's "not movable." He's Sid's pal and Sid likes having him around, while that sucks, I 100% think that's why JJ is still here.

I don't think that's true (as to why JJ is still here). Hagelin was one of the most popular players in the room and he still traded him last fall. I think it's just that JR is looking to do something without having to pay a big cost to move him, and there's not a ton happening right now - and no real pressure to make the move now vs 2-3 weeks from now. His only deadline is a few days before camp so that MP has time to get his visa sorted out and still get here before camp. Anything before that is him rushing things. I get that we'd have loved to have this sorted out in June, but there's really no pressure on JR for another few weeks, as distasteful as that is.

 

[Bingo71]

Does JJ realize the pressure is on now and step up his game to “prove” that he belongs or not?

 

[Andy99]

Does JJ realize the pressure is on now and step up his game to “prove” that he belongs or not?

What in god’s name makes you think he has a step up to get to? There’s like 12 years of data on this guy that says he’s a bad defenseman...

 

[Bingo71]

What in god’s name makes you think he has a step up to get to? There’s like 12 years of data on this guy that says he’s a bad defenseman...

Forgot the sarcasm emoji...

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don't think he'd get a 1st, but we've seen similar players to Rust (Eller, Shaw, etc) get a pair of 2nds, so I don't think it's unrealistic that he'd fetch a 2nd+. Might not get 2x 2nds due to him not being a center, but given the rest of his abilities, I don't think a 2nd+ is out of the question. And depending on the team and their roster/budget, a 2nd+ for JJ isn't all that unrealistic - especially if they need to pay someone anyway to fill that spot. As I said above, yr2 might be tough, but yr3+ likely wouldn't be all that big of a deal given what blueliner's are costing and what he's paid come yr3+ (8.25m over 3 yrs).



Did you see the number of prominent RFAs (and even some UFAs) still being unsigned this long into the summer? Because that's what's holding up everything right now.



I don't think that's true (as to why JJ is still here). Hagelin was one of the most popular players in the room and he still traded him last fall. I think it's just that JR is looking to do something without having to pay a big cost to move him, and there's not a ton happening right now - and no real pressure to make the move now vs 2-3 weeks from now. His only deadline is a few days before camp so that MP has time to get his visa sorted out and still get here before camp. Anything before that is him rushing things. I get that we'd have loved to have this sorted out in June, but there's really no pressure on JR for another few weeks, as distasteful as that is.

Hagelin was popular with the group as friends.

JJ is Crosby's best bud. A guy that he speaks highly of and fondly of even when they played baseball together.

I don't think YOU understand the pull Crosby has.

 

[The Old Master]

Hagelin was popular with the group as friends.

JJ is Crosby's best bud. A guy that he speaks highly of and fondly of even when they played baseball together.

I don't think YOU understand the pull Crosby has.

I do know sid's desire to win...….his own mom isn't safe.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Hagelin was popular with the group as friends.

JJ is Crosby's best bud. A guy that he speaks highly of and fondly of even when they played baseball together.

I don't think YOU understand the pull Crosby has.

You know who else was his very best friend?
Colby Armstrong.

These guys skate with these players daily. They know who sucks and who doesn't.
If Sid had so much pull mixed with love , he would've played G1 of the PO's.

ETA: I'm hoping they simply waive him and keep Riiko/Ruh up with the big club.
Zero risk of losing a d to start doing it that way as well.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

You know who else was his very best friend?
Colby Armstrong.

These guys skate with these players daily. They know who sucks and who doesn't.
If Sid had so much pull mixed with love , he would've played G1 of the PO's.

ETA: I'm hoping they simply waive him and keep Riiko/Ruh up with the big club.
Zero risk of losing a d to start doing it that way as well.

I still think they send JJ to WBS. No reason for me to think this other than it gives them cap room to sign MP (if/when they send ZT to WBS too). It'd be a one year, cheaper deal, but it'd work.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

You know who else was his very best friend?
Colby Armstrong.

These guys skate with these players daily. They know who sucks and who doesn't.
If Sid had so much pull mixed with love , he would've played G1 of the PO's.

ETA: I'm hoping they simply waive him and keep Riiko/Ruh up with the big club.
Zero risk of losing a d to start doing it that way as well.

Colby and him were close, this was also in the first few years of his career.

 

[LOGiK]

What is a dog day actually?
Since a dog ages 7 years per human year.... who actually verified this?..... Does that mean a dog day is just really fast and our spouse takes us for walks and scratches our ears and gives belly work?

So a dog day is just a really fast and pleasant day?

 

[Shady Machine]

Gotta say I did not see this JJ debacle continue this long into the summer. That said I still believe we'll be able to find a way before or around the first week of TC to get rid of him. If not and as a last resort we can buy him out. Certainly not the greatest outcome, but maybe less harmful than the other (problematic) alternatives.

You didn’t? This is very predictable

 

[Ryder71]

You didn’t? This is very predictable

I'm not gonna throw the towel in just yet on this. I still think there's a decent possibility he's gone before too long. But yeah, I thought in some form or fashion he would be moved.