Matthews vs. Eichel

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

To pcruz above, Okposo isn't really any threat and may be replaced by Tage Thompson as early as week or two into the year. He used to be and he can be somewhat dangerous at times but not to the point teams would hem in on him and make him a primary focus.

Skinner is projected to be with Eichel so even if teams do focus on one, it will directly effect the other (or should as a lot of games go on) points wise. It's possible Sheary plays with Eichel and Reinhart though and Skinner could be with Mittlestadt or Bergulnd and Okposo.


He's not saying (at least I don't think) LeafFanforLife23 that teams wont pay attention to those others, he just meant there not going to be going over tape or matching there best defenders against them on purpose every shift like they would Eichel.

Barzal is going to get this same treatment now that he's the GUY and we'll see how he reacts to it, I know Barzal was not a secret anymore by X-Mas but I just mean for a whole season, and even when he was a focus there was always still JT to worry about when playing NYI.




This is a good post. I like your reasons. Also why I was hesitant to say Eichel depending on Babcock's choice of ice-time.

I think this is the first time we have agreed on anything ever.

I am legitimately shocked

 

[Bedards Dad]

Not touching the rest of your post, but how in the hell does what these players are doing now change how they were perceived at the time of the 2015 draft?

It doesn't. However Matthews has always outperformed Eichel so its not a stretch to say Auston would have gone 2nd. It's not a lock since teams see different things, but if you go by what they had proven, its Matthews 2 and Eichel 3.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Should be very close but I'll go with Matthews.
If for no other reason that the Leafs should score many more goals than Buffalo.

 

[Brock Radunske]

I think offensively, they're close in general but with teams having to deal with a line centered by Matthews and a line centered by Tavares means there will probably be a lot of mis-matches which should result in more points for both of them.
Eichel is the main focus in Buffalo.

 

[Snippit]

It doesn't. However Matthews has always outperformed Eichel so its not a stretch to say Auston would have gone 2nd. It's not a lock since teams see different things, but if you go by what they had proven, its Matthews 2 and Eichel 3.

They were in different leagues in their draft year and Eichel had just put up absolutely ridiculous numbers in college.

Not sure how you can know either way.

 

[Bedards Dad]

They were in different leagues in their draft year and Eichel had just put up absolutely ridiculous numbers in college.

Not sure how you can know either way.

Their comparable years are all shown extensively. It's your choice to ignore that.

 

[Habs 4 Life]

It will be close but I will give a little edge to Matthews

 

[Taluss]

I feel like Eichel will have his best season, he needs too. But still going to say Matthews unless he is injured again or just somehow has a fluke

 

[Snippit]

Their comparable years are all shown extensively. It's your choice to ignore that.

You would have to go back to D-2 to get a comparable season. Nobody is going to put much stock into that over the more recent data of D-1

 

[Bedards Dad]

You would have to go back to D-2 to get a comparable season. Nobody is going to put much stock into that over the more recent data of D-1

Ignore as you choose, but its been laid out Many times. @zeke might have the breakdown somewhere that lays out all of their comparable years and in only 1 occasion did Eichel slightly outperform Matthews.

Bottom line: Matthews always has and is currently still a better player. It's not a massive gap, but enough that one is better until proven otherwise.

 

[Snippit]

Ignore as you choose, but its been laid out Many times. @zeke might have the breakdown somewhere that lays out all of their comparable years and in only 1 occasion did Eichel slightly outperform Matthews.

Bottom line: Matthews always has and is currently still a better player. It's not a massive gap, but enough that one is better until proven otherwise.

Someone wasn't following the conversation..

 

[authentic]

Matthews more than likely. I wouldn't be shocked if Eichel edged him out though.

 

[Not Sure]

Lmao you really believe this, don't you?

So where exactly do you insist on fitting in Eichel's 56 point rookie season in the comparison with Matthews? Do you just prefer to call it a mulligan and move on to comparing Matthews' rookie season with Eichel's sophomore season? You've yet to provide any valid reason whatsoever for this.

Because Matthew's first professional season was overseas. I'd put Eichel's 1st professional season next to Matthew's 1st professional season. I mean Matthew's was only 2 days away from being draft eligible in Eichels draft year it seems only fair.

 

[780il]

Matthews>Eichel imo

 

[ThatsSoSlavin]

I’ll take Matthew’s, although I don’t think Eichel is THAT far behind. I prefer Matthews defensive game for sure though


Unrelated: does anyone know why I can’t make a poll?

 

[pikkuvaimo]

Matthews will score more points if he stays healthy. Both will be near or over ppg.

 

[loyaltotheend]

It largely depends on how Babcock tries to split ice time between his top 3 Centers.

But given the fact Eichel has been due for his big breakout (after bad luck the past two seasons with significant injury) I’ll go with him. Shocking, but I think due to Skinner being In a contract year and the potential to have better linemates like Reinhart and skinner or sheary compared to girgensens Rodrigues and Pominville will help a great deal.

From all accounts and interviews he seems pumped up to make a dent in the league as he says he’s made none. Staying healthy is key here for both guys.

I think if both guys do stay healthy and play over 75 both are PPG.

I say it will go Eichel-87
Matthews 84.

Jack will get more opportunity, PP time and with the likes of risto-Reinhart already being good on the PP guys like Dahlin, mittlestadt and co. should open up more room for him.

That being said Matthews will score more goals and could very well outproduce Eich as the leafs offense should be extremely potent.

That's actually a very reasonable post, and I'm glad you finally acknowledged the difference in opportunity and PP time. (Though if it turns out Babs is going to stack PP1 the gap there may decrease)

I'm expecting each guy to have a big season

 

[loyaltotheend]

Not a very convincing argument you have here considering:

You're saying people are claiming he's better then Matthews when no one has. You also claim he's on another level. Sure, he may not of hit 30G matching up against the league's best checkers/defenders (on its lowest scoring team) but he hasn't scored fewer then 24 either, with two of his three seasons were shortened by significant injury.

Your bragging about PPG when Matthews has done it only once in an injury shortened season. (Not when counting playoffs though) meanwhile Eichel came 4 pts, then 3 pts shy of doing it in the last two seasons that were also shortened by injury. So a matter of a few pts is worth bragging about? That's kind of odd. Just saying. If I was going to try and convince people "My teams star" was in a different realm then some else I wouldn't start by bragging about something where the difference was peanuts.

But why stop at goals? If one was being objective rather then biased you could also claim Eichel has hit 30 assists in every season he's ever played, 1 shy of 40 in just 67 games last year, while Matthews hasn't done it once ever in his career. It's hard to put up 39 in 67 but doing that on a team that scored 198 goals is truly exceptional. If it were easy Auston would of done it on a top 5 scoring team, maybe once?

Could it be you just don't watch or like Eichel so you just won't want to look at these facts?

PPG since Matthews entered the league.

JE 0.94
AM 0.88 PPG


"ANOTHER LEVEL."





I know right? Why use this pre-season game when there's been nearly a dozen other games that mattered head to head. In this one, Matthews had better "Scoring chances", but it's funny to even reference this game because Eichel was doing something well offensively, almost every time I saw him out there. Skinner was the lone Sabres star because scoring that tap in goal looked extremely difficult. I bet you can guess who the first star of this game was? Not that stars mean much in the pre-season but it supports the argument made.

I almost can't blame some of these fans. If their not independent thinkers anyway. The portrayal of both men on Canadian media is VASTLY different. One is portrayed as a god among the gods and every shift he has he will do something incredible based on one of his ELITE skill-sets, the other wont get mentioned ever unless it's "Well he makes X amount of money he should be good". (Contract hasn't even kicked in yet but alright..)

I almost GET IT though. This outlook some fans have. Not sure if you watch on Sportsnet or MSG Snippit with were you live but listening to the Pro-Leafs Greg Millen and the like is comical. I can put up with the praise about Auston cause its mostly true.


Auston makes a decent move past the blue line, does his pull and drag shot. (Not a toe-drag or anything spectacular but a nice shot.) Millen on the replay "And LOOK at the skill here by Matthews, lets this one go, and OH Wow...look at the skill-level on that release, just WOW."

Then

"One thing we don't talk about enough with Matthews is his ability to take his speed to another level, like all the great stars in this league." (When Eichel can do this too and even faster, and even did just before this shift) Now that statement is FINE by itself, it's true and he doesen't have to say EIchel is fast. Not everything is comparison. HOWEVER.... he said this right before this gem.

"(Camera shows Eichel on the bench) ...Yeaaah, Jack Eichel, you know he's going to have to be better then just "pretty good" if he wants the Sabres to have any success this year. He needs to be a star for this team." See again, this isn't wrong. But you'd think Eichel a guy who has actually averaged more points per game then Matthews since the time he (Auston) entered the league has been better then just "pretty good"? Some fans hear this and they'll treat this like gospel, especially since it's what they want to believe.

Ahh you were doing so good, but had to go back to your classic "since Matthews entered the league".
Be honest. "I really want to disregard Eichel's inferior rookie season in order in inflate his PPG"

These are great players, you can argue either side without crap like that

 

[loyaltotheend]

You’ve heard of the domino effect right?

If you chase the play all the time your not going to have as many offensive opportunities, especially when he’s not an incredible defensive player to say the least.

The eye test is always better the these metrics even if they are somewhat useful.

Unfortunately unless your a fan of the team of the person you just won’t be able to do that. I mean you could.

I thought the play where eichel came into the leafs zone took the puck right off Matthews stick, skated by both defenders and tucked it last Andersen, his first of the two goals he scored, the other being the game winner. You see things like that and realize he wasn’t even that great that game. He just has a couple of good shifts that resulted in goals.

Tonight against Columbus (preseason and all!) there was a shift where he skated around the offensive zone for close to 45 seconds making moves past everyone, no one could catch him. He makes so many plays like each game in the neutral zone that don’t show up on advanced statistics. Matthews is impressive how he turns from 0 to 60 with his scoring chances in a matter of seconds. That’s always something I’ve found impressive about his game. His nose for the net and determination to succeed are intimidating. But Eichels raw skills on the ice just overtake anything I’ve seen Matthews to skill-wise. And I watch him...a lot.

I don’t care how many more minutes of ice time you get, playing against the best defenders each night with two different coaching systems and an awful supporting cast, yes indeed an argument can be made what he’s done has been even more impressive then Auston from an individual standpoint statistically. Not team-wise of course. Both players will get better and no one is saying Auston is falling off a cliff, even though that’s how it sounds you guys are saying will happen with Eich.


Now if it’s Matthews versus Barzal, Laine or even Mackinnon I would take Matthews and wouldn’t even have to think about it. I don’t claim Mackinnon to be the god everyone else is, unless of course he does it again but even then it wouldn’t mean he’s a tier higher.

I skipped all the rest of this novel, but want to ask about this domino effect you refer to.
By "chasing the play" all the time are you referring to Buffalo usually trailing in games? (Not a dig, I think we can both acknowledge they haven't been very good the past couple seasons)
I'm only asking, because that sounds like score effects, which actually gives an offensive advantage to the team trying to come back.
But maybe you mean something else. Interested to hear...

 

[loyaltotheend]

I think offensively, they're close in general but with teams having to deal with a line centered by Matthews and a line centered by Tavares means there will probably be a lot of mis-matches which should result in more points for both of them.
Eichel is the main focus in Buffalo.

That's a fair point. Matthews is more likely to see favourable matchups (at least at home) and finally has someone who can finish on his left, which should see an increase in assists.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

That PP is another reason why Matthews likely scores more

Matthews Tavares Kadri Marner Rielly very few teams can match that, Tampa and Pittsburgh that's pretty much it

 

[Isaac Nootin]

That PP is another reason why Matthews likely scores more

Matthews Tavares Kadri Marner Rielly very few teams can match that, Tampa and Pittsburgh that's pretty much it

Add Washington and Winnipeg as well.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

By all accounts Matthew's is bigger, Stronger and faster than last season. He'll also be getting top PP use for the first time. Gotta go with Matthews.

Are you aware the same thing has been said about eichel, Pierre McGuire wouldn’t shut up about it during the jackets sabres game.

It’s going to be really interesting to see both guys even better then they’ve already been. A scary prospect, maybe both can be legit top ten centres as soon as this year. IMO there not far off as it is.

 

[Thorton02]

What's with Leafs fans obsession with Buffalo?

Anyway, Matthews will score more than Eichel, goals & points.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

What's with Leafs fans obsession with Buffalo?

Anyway, Matthews will score more than Eichel, goals & points.

But not assists right? Lol eichel has hit 30 in every season matthews never has.

He should get an award for getting 39 last year in just 67 games on a team that outside of him only scored 173 goals. That’s outstanding don’t really understand how that happened.

As for Toronto’s obsession. I guess outside of being division rivals the fans always travel to each other’s games and always heckle each other plus in recent years people I guess said the sabres rebuild was ahead of the leafs then Toronto stacked up with babcock Andersen Lou shanahan Marner Nylander matthews all with a year or two and suddenly did better while buffalos truggled and leaf fans never forgot. Some hold a grudge so big that they constantly talk about it at least once a week.

It doesn't. However Matthews has always outperformed Eichel so its not a stretch to say Auston would have gone 2nd. It's not a lock since teams see different things, but if you go by what they had proven, its Matthews 2 and Eichel 3.

No he hasn’t.

Eichel has a higher PPG since Auston came in the league (and eichel had to play both those seasons after a high ankle sprain with no linemates as good as W. Nylander) or stable coaching (disco dan and a rookie head coach in his first year)

and in the 16-17 season in their first season together that they went head to head eichel averaged a 0.10 higher PPG.

Even when Matthews has beaten eichel it’s never by a substantial amount like last season when he had a 0.7 higher PPG, and if you even count playoffs (eichel stays the same as he didn’t play obviously) then they both would be tied at 0.95. So technically if you were looking at both reg season and playoffs you could say Matthews has never produced eichel In a single season ever. I wouldn’t say that though as it’s harder to score in the playoffs so it wouldn’t be fair to hold that against Matthews.

But so far head to head in the last two years eichel has 0.94 PPG average and Matthews has 0.88. Eichel gets two minutes more ice time but I’ll take 18 mins a game with Nylander over 20 mins a game without and when your best linemates was an aging Pominville. Eichel also gets more PP time but 44 of his 64 pts came at even strength nd he had only 3 PPG last year so on buffalo that’s not exactly an advantage.