Matthews vs. Eichel

[Snippit]

https://www.tsn.ca/mcdavid-continues-reign-atop-tsn-s-top-50-player-ranking-1.1180403

Matthews 8th best player, EIchel 33rd.

Matthews is a tier above. this poll shouldnt be this close. If it was Schiefele (11th) vs Eichel, Schiefele would have 80% votes. check out the eichel votes and iots a combo of sabres,oilers and jets fans. no surprise there

Wow, you're actually treating that list like it's gospel.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

Knock off the crap.

 

[Thenameless]

I'm going with Matthews on this one. Having him and Tavares as a 1A and 1B punch is going to make it difficult for opposing defenses to key in on either one of them. And if they play together on the first power play unit, which I'm sure will be tried at some point, then even better.

 

[Stephen]

Solid post, real objective. Eichel's points dont count as much as Matthew's now because Matthews doesnt besmirch himself with multi goal games or even bother to score if the game cant be won.

Well, he puts up points and his team sucks. Same recipe the past three seasons.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Yikes, not even an argument for Eichel.

You’ve heard of the domino effect right?

If you chase the play all the time your not going to have as many offensive opportunities, especially when he’s not an incredible defensive player to say the least.

The eye test is always better the these metrics even if they are somewhat useful.

Unfortunately unless your a fan of the team of the person you just won’t be able to do that. I mean you could.

I thought the play where eichel came into the leafs zone took the puck right off Matthews stick, skated by both defenders and tucked it last Andersen, his first of the two goals he scored, the other being the game winner. You see things like that and realize he wasn’t even that great that game. He just has a couple of good shifts that resulted in goals.

Tonight against Columbus (preseason and all!) there was a shift where he skated around the offensive zone for close to 45 seconds making moves past everyone, no one could catch him. He makes so many plays like each game in the neutral zone that don’t show up on advanced statistics. Matthews is impressive how he turns from 0 to 60 with his scoring chances in a matter of seconds. That’s always something I’ve found impressive about his game. His nose for the net and determination to succeed are intimidating. But Eichels raw skills on the ice just overtake anything I’ve seen Matthews to skill-wise. And I watch him...a lot.

I don’t care how many more minutes of ice time you get, playing against the best defenders each night with two different coaching systems and an awful supporting cast, yes indeed an argument can be made what he’s done has been even more impressive then Auston from an individual standpoint statistically. Not team-wise of course. Both players will get better and no one is saying Auston is falling off a cliff, even though that’s how it sounds you guys are saying will happen with Eich.


Now if it’s Matthews versus Barzal, Laine or even Mackinnon I would take Matthews and wouldn’t even have to think about it. I don’t claim Mackinnon to be the god everyone else is, unless of course he does it again but even then it wouldn’t mean he’s a tier higher.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

this really hurts the "matthews woulda went 3rd had he been born 2 weeks earlier" crowd
until Eichel gets 35-40g, and is a PPG+ player while leading his team to the playoffs, he wont be on the same tier as Matthews. make all the excuses you want, but the kid is getting 20min and loads of PP time (on a PP that was very,very good) so the whole linemates thing doesnt stick.

It’s pretty funny how some fans are so obsessed with this ice time thing. It matters sure. But give me 18 mins with w Nylander then 20 a game with Pominville of today. Those are both guys best linemates to this point. Also With ice time almost no one if gifted anything. He’s earned it. Second why don’t all the players who get 20 minutes and PP time produce point per game? You want to know why? Becuse it’s hard to do.

Auston does it one time barely in an injury shortened season where-as eichel has been 3 pts and 4 pts off doing the same thing. You could argue 121 in his last 128 is more impressive then 63 in 62 since it’s over a longer period.

Give me 18 mins a game with a high scoring, winning leafs team with Nylander and whoever it will be this year Hyman marleau whoever over twenty mins with girgsensens/Rodrigues and Pominville.

He only had 3 power play goals last year and your talking about all this PP time without realizing 22 goals were scored at even strength and had 39 assists in just 67 games on a team that scored only 198 goals.

I can’t take anyone seriously who brags about Auston “leading his team” to the playoffs when they also added a top ten goalie (Eichels never had a rest goalie) Mitch Marner (who some of you hve called hilariously better then Eichel) shouldn’t he help? and lastly Nylander that year .....and for the record eichel also got his team from last to 22nd in his first year, (they dropped off the last two both of which he was injured for a quarter amongstnother reasons) I know 22nd is not like 16th like Auston did but he didn’t have those other guys. I also can’t take anyone seriously who says until he leads his team to the playoffs. Pretty sure mcdavid is the best player in the world and he didn’t make the playoffs last year. Teammates can bring you down this isn’t basketball, star forwards sit on the bench for two thirds of a hockey game.

So eichel is penalized for how poor his teammates play when he’s not on the ice which happens to be 2/3rds a game? See where that logic fails. Also anyone who quotes a TSN list in where Matthews is. Where is TSN located again. It’s like EA Sports in Vancouver every year they made the sedins still 92ish overall despite being well past their primes, it’s homer tendencies to the max.

Matthews has proven more and is better overall to this point but the fact Eichel is one of the fastest, most talented playmakers, with an elite skill set in this entire league can’t be ignored. Or the fact he’s had a better PPG then AM since he entered the league despite all those disadvantages. (Injuries, crap teammates, a bad coaching system and a brand new one with a rookie coach in his first year) etc. I don’t care how many more minutes he gets on a team that scored 198 goals. He still lead the team in scoring despite being out 20 percent of the year. It shows how bad his supporting cast really was. Eichel had to face all the leagues best opposition, checkers defenders because unlike Toronto buffalo couldn’t spread it around and none of it slowed him down. Eichels one of the few players that can create despite the fact.


To the few of you who don’t think eichel is going to continue improving, I feel bad I do. Your in for a big dissapojntment. He has every ability to out-produce Matthews, he did it in the 16-17 season 0.94 to 0.84 and now with the best supporting cast he’s ever had he can do it again.

 

[Not Sure]

Well, he puts up points and his team sucks. Same recipe the past three seasons.

Now you're getting it. He puts up points, but his team sucks. Stop trying to move the goalposts to make your opinion sound better. If Eichel has 2g and 2a in a 7-4 win, he was on his game and helped them win. If he has 2a in a 4-2 losing effort that's not eichel's fault they lost, it means he did his part and the team lost. Take all these situations for what they are at that moment in time.

Trying to belittle accomplishments before they even happen. It sounds like you want to give yourself an out in case Eichel actually does outproduce Matthew's. Matthew's points dont count different, the question is who has more points, not who score more goals, or who gets more empty netters.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Good poll. This one is a coin toss.

 

[Panthaz89]

https://www.tsn.ca/mcdavid-continues-reign-atop-tsn-s-top-50-player-ranking-1.1180403

Matthews 8th best player, EIchel 33rd.

Matthews is a tier above. this poll shouldnt be this close. If it was Schiefele (11th) vs Eichel, Schiefele would have 80% votes. check out the eichel votes and iots a combo of sabres,oilers and jets fans. no surprise there

Considering unlike Matthews Schiefele has produced a PPG season and absolutely shit on Matthews if we compared playoff performance...its not surprising that the TORONTO network had the balls to put him ahead of him in the first place.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Now you're getting it. He puts up points, but his team sucks. Stop trying to move the goalposts to make your opinion sound better. If Eichel has 2g and 2a in a 7-4 win, he was on his game and helped them win. If he has 2a in a 4-2 losing effort that's not eichel's fault they lost, it means he did his part and the team lost. Take all these situations for what they are at that moment in time.

Trying to belittle accomplishments before they even happen. It sounds like you want to give yourself an out in case Eichel actually does outproduce Matthew's. Matthew's points dont count different, the question is who has more points, not who score more goals, or who gets more empty netters.

Oh you just know that’s going to be the narrative should he outscore him. Tavares and kadri stole his ice time. But oh well deal with that if it happens..., I don’t like to count chickens...

I think it’s funny in a league where stars don’t play 2/3rds of a hockey game, the teams leading scorer who missed twenty percent of the year and plays a third of the game is at fault. Conversely it’s all the credit of one guy who plays just a third of the game because he arrived in a perfect storm of positivity. He’s the poster boy to this new leafs thus he’s seen as a hero. He’s impressive and there best player but places like TSN get so carried away...

 

[Stephen]

Oh you just know that’s going to be the narrative should he outscore him. Tavares and kadri stole his ice time. But oh well deal with that if it happens..., I don’t like to count chickens...

I think it’s funny in a league where stars don’t play 2/3rds of a hockey game, the teams leading scorer who missed twenty percent of the year and plays a third of the game is at fault. Conversely it’s all the credit of one guy who plays just a third of the game m because he arrived in a perfect storm of positivity. He’s the poster boy to this new leafs this he’s seen as a hero.

If Tavares and Kadri are outscoring Matthews, I think the narrative in Toronto is a Stanley Cup...

 

[tsujimoto74]

this really hurts the "matthews woulda went 3rd had he been born 2 weeks earlier" crowd
until Eichel gets 35-40g, and is a PPG+ player while leading his team to the playoffs, he wont be on the same tier as Matthews. make all the excuses you want, but the kid is getting 20min and loads of PP time (on a PP that was very,very good) so the whole linemates thing doesnt stick.

Not touching the rest of your post, but how in the hell does what these players are doing now change how they were perceived at the time of the 2015 draft?

 

[Tage2Tuch]

this really hurts the "matthews woulda went 3rd had he been born 2 weeks earlier" crowd
until Eichel gets 35-40g, and is a PPG+ player while leading his team to the playoffs, he wont be on the same tier as Matthews. make all the excuses you want, but the kid is getting 20min and loads of PP time (on a PP that was very,very good) so the whole linemates thing doesnt stick.

Bob McKenzie even said that Matthews would be taken third. Would you like to see the video? Go to YouTube and watch the video on eiche it may of been Austons draft year. Oh but your going to say that would change now after Austons broke in the league, if the video was shot before right? Well in that time he’s been outproduced by Jack Eichel. I don’t care if Eich got ten more minutes of ice time with Rodrigues girgensens and a washed up Pominville (no one the caliber of a Nylander) who Auston always has with him, if jack was indeed in a whole tier below Auston something like that shouldn’t even be possible. Especially considering the miserable high ankle sprains and playing on one good leg both times in those two seasons which didn’t slow him down literally and metaphorically.

No one is bashing Matthews, there just saying he isn’t a tier above eichel. No chance. I watch both of them. I’d admit if he was ahead like I can other players like kopitar. (Even if that will likely soon shift) Notice how ONLY a select few leaf fans who rely on advanced stat metrics like corsi instead of taking the time to watch eichel play the game share this ignorant, unrational, idiotic “point of view.”

Yeah, me too.

Eichel has the same switch to take over a game Matthews has. Realize Auston scored 7 more goals last year in 5 less games, (look out ovi) but Auston is the better sniper even if he did dry up once teams hemmed in on him in a seven game series. (In comes eichel hasnt played a playoff game joke lolz!) He wants to get better with assists and he should.

All the greats put up s high number of assists other then a couple guys Auston included but good for him, because playmaking is an important part of hockey. Eichel has hit 30 or more three times in three years despite missing a quarter of the season in 2 of those 3 years. We’ll see if Auston earns makes Jack Eichel kind of money, or if the leafs overpay. He is certainly the better sniper, he has a better team, he’s not better in transition, speed, or playmaking. But he’s fair in all those things, has never put up less then 29 assists much like Jack who isn’t better at scoring goals but he’s still good at it with never scoring fewer then 24.

They’re most definitely in the same tier though, that’s just a fact. You’d think being in a tier with Jack Eichel would be a compliment but if you guys never watch him play if his opposing team isn’t wearing blue and white so I guess? one would assume it’s an Insult? No clue why.

 

[zeke]

Age 19-20

Matthews: 157gms, 17:58, 79gls, 139pts (82gms, 41gls, 73pts)
Marner: 172gms, 16:40, 44gls, 143pts (82gms, 21gls, 68pts)
Eichel: 142gms, 19:28, 48gls, 113pts (82gms, 28gls, 65pts)

 

[34]

Easily Matthews.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Age 19-20

Matthews: 157gms, 17:58, 79gls, 139pts (82gms, 41gls, 73pts)
Marner: 172gms, 16:40, 44gls, 143pts (82gms, 21gls, 68pts)
Eichel: 142gms, 19:28, 48gls, 113pts (82gms, 28gls, 65pts)

Nice numbers.

Eichel has played 128 games since Auston entered the league. In that time he has more points then either Marner or Matthews despite no star players on his line and two sprained ankles.

I do like the cherry picking these numbers entail though. Picking 19–20 a direct cut-off of 21 where Eichel came into his own and finished With 28 pts in his last 22 games.

I wonder if you do the same thing (making your own cut off rules) when you try and convince yourself Matthews is better then mcdavid. That is afterall what you said last week so....grain of salt=you.

 

[zeke]

Nice numbers.

Eichel has played 128 games since Auston entered the league. In that time he has more points then either Marner or Matthews despite no star players on his line and two sprained ankles.

I do like the cherry picking these numbers entail though. Picking 19–20 a direct cut-off of 21 where Eichel came into his own and finished With 28 pts in his last 22 games.

I wonder if you do the same thing (making your own cut off rules) when you try and convince yourself Matthews is better then mcdavid. That is afterall what you said last week so....grain of salt=you.

explain why comparing them at the same ages and in the same years of their careers is misleading, while your "since He's been in the league" isn't a blatantly misleading spinjob?

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Well this poll is strictly points, so it's somewhat arguable. Especially when one player is spoon fed icetime and favorable zone starts.

If it were who is the better all around player, it would turn out to be one of those AINEC polls.

Is there a reason you keep having to lie to yourself that the only reason Eichel would get more points then Matthews (or has for that matter in the last two seasons) is because he’s spoon fed minutes. Why don’t all first liners outproduce Matthews since he’s entered the league if it were so easy? They can’t because there not as good.

Suggesting being spoon fed minutes on a team that scored 198 goals and relies on you for everything is a ridiculous narrative to spin. A player making ten million earns his minutes and isn’t spoon fed anything.

The only people who say different tier or something isn’t close with these two are leaf fans who admittedly don’t watch Eichel. Heavy.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

explain why comparing them at the same ages and in the same years of their careers is misleading, while your "since He's been in the league" isn't a blatantly misleading spinjob?

They’re both technically correct.

I’m just pointing it out because it’s a better point of comparison. When they’re in the same league at the same time there up against the same completion in the same division at the same time. When all of these guys are 19 for instance it’s at different times the league around them may have worse goalies amongst other things. I’m not saying it’s wrong to compare at the same ages it’s not. It’s actually an okay thing to do but to cut it right off at 21 because Eichel significantly improved his point pace was a deliberate move.

Comparing both guys PPG head to head at the same time since they’ve been together in the league at the same time is an accurate portrayal of their overall success mans how it compares with one another because the level of their competition is the same. All teams and played around them are exactly as good.

Especially when said players are a mere eleven months apart in birth which isn’t very different in the big picture at all. Was Matthews a year younger at the time, sure. Was he gifted a lot of better things Eichel wasn’t? You bet. Yet all we hear about are these gift wrapped minutes which you all are so inclined to point out yet can’t answer the question I threw out “if it was so easy to out produce Matthews” why doesent everyone who gets first line minutes do it? It certainly seems like the most logical, lucrative career choice a hockey player would make. So why don’t more do it? There is big money in the prospect of that I would think?

 

[zeke]

They’re both technically correct.

I’m just pointing it out because it’s a better point of comparison. When they’re in the same league at the same time there up against the same completion in the same division at the same time. When all of these guys are 19 for instance it’s at different times the league around them may have worse goalies amongst other things. I’m not saying it’s wrong to compare at the same ages it’s not. It’s actually an okay thing to do but to cut it right off at 21 because Eichel significantly improved his point pace was a deliberate move.

Comparing both guys PPG head to head at the same time since they’ve been together in the league at the same time is an accurate portrayal of their overall success mans how it compares with one another because the level of their competition is the same. All teams and played around them are exactly as good.

Especially when said players are a mere eleven months apart in birth which isn’t very different in the big picture at all.
Was Matthews a year younger at the time, sure. Was he gifted a lot of better things Eichel wasn’t? You bet. Yet all we hear about are these gift wrapped minutes which you seem so inclined to point out yet can’t answer the question I threw out “if it was so easy to out produce Matthews” why doesent everyone who gets first line minutes do it? It certainly seems like the most logical, lucrative career choice a hockey player would make. So why don’t more do it? There is big money in the prospect of that I would think?

why does ignoring eichel's 19yr old rookie season while including it for the leafs players make for a fairer, more accurate comparison?

 

[Tage2Tuch]

why does ignoring eichel's 19yr old rookie season while including it for the leafs players make for a fairer comparison?

I didn’t say that isn’t a bad comparison. You never suggested it though. That would be looking at career PPG which is one of the most accurate things you can look at. There’s nothing wrong with this.

I’m just saying looking at both players numbers at the same time when in the league together is another accurate portrayal of comparison for the reasons I stated above. More so then just picking the ages two leafs happened to have a slightly higher point total and then stopping randomly at Eichels 21 because that would make the numbers different.

See there’s three different methods were talking about. The one you proposed the career PPG seems fine, we could include Eichels rookie year that would make Matthews career PPG higher then Eichels and that’s fine. That’s fair.

The way I did it has Eichel slightly ahead, again fine because it’s both guys at the same time with the same competitor. But your way here seems contrived, it’s looking for a cut-off point where we can say “HEY! Before these few months this actually had more points then this guy.” I’m going to make this my means for the comparison. It seems like a randoml (but forced) cut off point.

 

[IPS]

why does ignoring eichel's 19yr old rookie season while including it for the leafs players make for a fairer, more accurate comparison?

It's literally been ignored since day 1. Many games of mental gymnastics have been played to completely avoid bringing up Eichel's rookie season because it wasn't remotely as good as Matthews'. It really does come off as awfully insecure.

 

[zeke]

I didn’t say that isn’t a bad comparison. You never suggested it though. That would be looking at career PPG which is one of the most accurate things you can look at. There’s nothing wrong with this.

I’m just saying looking at both players numbers at the same time when in the league together is another accurate portrayal of comparison for the reasons I stated above. More so then just picking the ages two leafs happened to have a slightly higher point total and then stopping randomly at Eichels 21 because that would make the numbers different.

See there’s three different methods were talking about. The one you proposed the career PPG seems fine, we could include Eichels rookie year that would make Matthews career PPG higher then Eichels and that’s fine. That’s fair.

The way I did it has Eichel slightly ahead, again fine because it’s both guys at the same time with the same competitor. But your way here seems contrived, it’s looking for a cut-off point where we can say “HEY! Before these few months this actually had more points then this guy.” I’m going to make this my means for the comparison. It seems like a randoml (but forced) cut off point.

comparing them at the same ages and in the same years of their careers is quite normal and obviously useful.

you removing eichel's rookie year while including it for the others is a clear cut, blatant case of cherry picking stats for a misleading comparison.

 

[IPS]

Comparing both guys PPG head to head at the same time since they’ve been together in the league at the same time is an accurate portrayal of their overall success mans how it compares with one another because the level of their competition is the same. All teams and played around them are exactly as good.

Lmao you really believe this, don't you?

So where exactly do you insist on fitting in Eichel's 56 point rookie season in the comparison with Matthews? Do you just prefer to call it a mulligan and move on to comparing Matthews' rookie season with Eichel's sophomore season? You've yet to provide any valid reason whatsoever for this.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Lmao you really believe this, don't you?

So where exactly do you insist on fitting in Eichel's 56 point rookie season in the comparison with Matthews? Do you just prefer to call it a mulligan and move on to comparing Matthews' rookie season with Eichel's sophomore season? You've yet to provide any valid reason whatsoever for this.

If you would of read the rest of my post IPS literally the one just above yours I said another good way is career PPG that includes Eichels rookie season because that’s fair and accurate too. And yes when you do that Matthews is very much ahead. So your just creating something or trying to out of nothing since I didn’t ignore that at all it just never came up in the initial conversation when doing age (his) then at the same time (mine) comparisons but when it was pointed out I agreed and Matthews wins that.

And I will also say that is the most accurate one to do.


I’m will also say I’m one of the few people who would put Marner right now above Barzal mostly because I need to see how Barzal does on his own. So I don’t find it disrespectful comparing Marner to Eichel I just think it’s not the right comparison given how close matthews and Eichel have been and both playing as centres etc. having watched a lot of both guys. Obviously a few of you will want to compare marner and I get why.


It’s like when edmonton fans wanted to compare draisaitl to eich ...cringe. Drai has his abilities and he was a warrior in the playoffs but the skill level is just so far off. Marner is closer to Eichel then draisaitl too. I would not be surprised if Marner outscored matthews And Eichel this season if he plays the whole year healthy with a healthy JT. Anders Lee was a pretty good player but he had a career high of 25 G before JT and with him in the past two years he is top five in goals (over 80) and Bailey as well, helped him a lot. So knowing marners talent things can be scary this season that way.