Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 18

Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by montreal, Jun 10, 2021.

  1. CHfan1 Registered User

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    He does win a bunch of puck and board battles already. He lead the Habs in takeaways in the regular season this year.
     
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  2. 26Mats #FireBergevin

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    Ferrero also mentioned willingness and accurate help. But in his view/experience it also takes genetics.
     
  3. Mrb1p PRICERSTOPDAPUCK

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    Its very very true in hockey especially. As a sport, it is so far behind in exercise science... and you guessed it, use of PEDs.

    Compare the average football player to hockey players, its crazy how far behind hockey is. Its acceptable to be pudgy like Emelin.
     
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  4. Habs10Habs Retired

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    Not what you would call a scientific term, but I call it "Man Strength". Kotkaniemi is only 20 and hasn't quite developed that yet. It's like my neighbours kid. He's 6'2 about 185lbs at 19 years old. He's training to be an MMA fighter. I spar with him once in awhile. I'm 5'7 between 175/185lbs. I currently throw him around like a rag doll. Partly due to experience and technique and a lot of it having to do with the fact that his man strength hasn't kicked in yet. Once it does, it wouldn't surprise me if I'm the one that is going to get rag dolled.
     
  5. Ozmodiar Registered User

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    Natural ability plays a major role.

    some kids are born to be fullbacks, while others are born to be tailbacks. ... and some tailbacks are Bo or Barry. There’s no amount of gym time that will change that. Bo didn’t lift weights until he was at Auburn ... didn’t know the right things to do.

    Mcdavid, Barzal, ... even Byron, are elite skaters but they don’t have elite training regimens. These athletes all use the same training orgs.
     
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  6. Ozmodiar Registered User

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    The Habs should send KK to work on a farm in Saskatchewan or on a fishing boat in nfld or NS. That should accelerate things.

    2 groups that I’ve had the misfortune of competing against, albeit recreationally.
     
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  7. SakuKoivu11 Registered User

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    He’s suited to the grinding playoffs. Reminds me more of a Jordan Staal than Anze Kopitar
     
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  8. Ozmodiar Registered User

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    True
    Hard work, drive, training, diet, coaching... all impact how that ability is put to use.
     
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  9. OnTheRun /dev/null

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    Genetics only give you predispositions, which would loosely translate in needing less willingness and accurate help to achieve the objectives. It's not a hard ceiling tho.
     
  10. Gravity Generational Poster

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    Guys, seriously this was a quick google search away.....Is athletic performance determined by genetics?: MedlinePlus Genetics. There's absolutely no doubt that genetics play a major role in athletic performance, as does epigenetics (environmental stimuli) such as diet and training regimes etc...
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
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  11. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    Oof. First off, a genetic marker is about genetic expression. We are just starting to understand how expressions arise.

    Okay, here's a good one about visual acuity and epigenetic markers. Take a kid and stick it in a dark room for its first few years of life and the optical nerves won't develop. Why? Because there are specific periods at which these expressions are supposed to unfold and if there's no input, there's no development and then it's over, never to be activated. To go a little further, since the expression follows a pattern of need/necessity and takes its cues from the immediate environment, it is a sound hypothesis to presume infant visual acuity will be raised or weakened depending on their environmental input at the moment when these developmental plateaus are reached.

    Also, it's never ONE gene, but many genes that cater to specific systems/assembly. That one gene popping-up expressed might just be a sign of similar development path at those specific stages. The "one gene" associated to something is deeply misunderstood. People always assume its a 1:1 ratio, but can't explain why the same phenomenom arises without that gene popping-up and I can bet you all the money I have that you'll find players with high acuity and they won't have that gene, despite a given percentage who do have the gene and the same acuity, and you'll also find some who have that gene and have lower acuity.

    Even phenotypes are getting reconsidered when it comes to gene expression and developmental plateaus. We are at the very beginning of our true understanding of genetics, yet people assume so much based on fallacious interpretations of statistical majorities of unique genes that never actually explains the phenomena they supposedly cause.
     
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  12. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    These athletes don't use all the same specific coaches for skating, from youth to pro. I stopped reading at natural abilitiy. Go read more.
     
  13. Miller Time Registered User

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    Yes... And forgive my oversimplification, I took some liberties to avoid going into great depth...

    But while I'd agree that there is far more uncertainty and unknowns in the fields of genetics & neurobiology, and that many existing models and frameworks remain in place/practice despite evidence of their inaccuracies simply because no better explanation has yet been demonstrated... I do think there is some rather robust evidence that certain markers do reflect greater ranges in physical potential that correlate to biological advantages relevant to certain professions.. which explain why their presence in those professions far exceed their expression in the general population.
    As in the examples I provided...
    7 footers in b-ball, or visual acuity in baseball

    If a baby with the genetic markers for that kind of height is kept in a box in infancy, then of course, they won't grow to that height, and a baby with those visual genes kept in the dark won't develop proper sight, let alone heightened acuity... The point is moreso that without those markers, nothing in the environment will allow for that height or visual acuity to be expressed (short of bio engineering, but that's a whole other can of worms lol)
     
  14. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    Environmental stimuli is much more than just diet and training regimes. It's everything that happens to you and impacts your development at a wide variety of stages. From in utero up to adulthood and even further (should read up on how anxiety/high degrees of stress impacts your gene expression and changes to help you produce even more cortisol, well into adulthood).
     
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  15. Gravity Generational Poster

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    No doubt and there is not disagreement on my part on that point. Still, there is equally no doubt that gene complexes also play a crucial role in creating a foundational base for an athlete to build upon.
     
  16. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    Dude, everytime you say "marker" you're talking about epigenetics and when you're talking about epigenetics, the cascade that leads to expression is more often than not environmental.

    I can tell you that there's no such thing as robust proof of any one gene creating something specific.

    Like i told you, you will find the same trait WITHOUT the gene, no matter the percentages.
     
  17. Miller Time Registered User

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    Potential, more than base.

    The Enviro stimuli allowing for, or optimizing, that potential, is the equally crucial factor.
     
  18. Ozmodiar Registered User

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    So defensive. Why so insecure?

    You thought I meant that they literally all had the same coach?

    “Read more”. lol
    maybe you should get out to a rink or two.
     
  19. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    I used to believe that. I don't anymore.

    It depends on what you define as an athlete.
     
  20. Gravity Generational Poster

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    Same thing, different wording. In that case, it's just interchanging synonymous terms.
     
  21. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    There's no insecurity, stop projecting.

    Yes read more if all you can come up with is "natural ability".
     
  22. Miller Time Registered User

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    Add an s... My bad.
     
  23. Gravity Generational Poster

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    Let's say a professional athlete. The argument of endocrine shifts, mental health and many other complexes can go both ways as it can be stated that a lot of health issues that may arise in an individual which may prevent him/her from being a professional athlete are largely due to genetics. Not only must a professional athlete hit the professional jackpot health-wise, further traits such as muscle fiber twitching (which also do contain a significant genetic portion) can also aid or hamper an athlete.

    With all due respect, to dismiss genetics entirely from athletic performance would be quite foolish.
     
  24. Miller Time Registered User

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    Semantics? Perhaps... But alsom maybe not.

    I'd infer from "base" something more firm or constant than "potential"... More accurately, the base gets built from the potential being optimized, and from that base, the movement ability to excel refined to elite levels.
     
  25. Gravity Generational Poster

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    A base is simply the foundation off which anything is built. Call it potential or whatever, a base need not be firm or concrete. A foundation can equally be flimsy.
     

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