Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 18

Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by montreal, Jun 10, 2021.

  1. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    But that's the thing. What's the potential you're aiming? Because you can come up with similar results and different methods and same method and different results. Generally we all have similar genetic potentials. The variations are small and displaced from one to the next. And if the environmental stimulus seems so ceucial like you said, it's because we develop in layers and what happens at each layer gives further meaning to the added layers.

    The ONLY place where genetics were thought to remain close to deterministic was with phenotypes, like the 7 feet bball player you mentioned. But even that is being turned on its head at the moment. Variations that are outside the norm are not always explicable by gene inheritance. Like two small parents who have a teen who's a foot higher than both his parents (yes it happens). Family tree, still no one close. Where does the variation really come from?

    Yes tall parents give taller kids on average, but not always. The population itself is getting taller.
     
  2. Mrb1p PRICERSTOPDAPUCK

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    Nope. Not even close. Genes play a crucial part in the absolute freaks of freaks. Think Ronnie Coleman, Usain Bolt but these guys also worked their way up.

    That wasnt the point though of that discussion, obviously genes play a part in the development of a person, it is the starting pieces.
     
  3. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    Even with the S, it's hundreds of genes.

    Some of the genes that have been tested the most in regards to a specific trait are the ones that are the most inconclusive. All the biggest researches that spent so much money on figuring out specific traits have all come-up inconclusive and most of those conclusions were contradicted and rendered null. A little tour of the history of the genes associated with violence should be enough to appreciate just of how little value that came out of all that. It's a clusterf*** of one supposition after another getting falsified. The only thing that's for certain is that trauma is ALWAYS key. That's where it's almost 1:1. Not the genes. The trauma.
     
  4. Miller Time Registered User

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    Hmm no, this is where I disagree.

    That "generally" comment is key. Generally, yes.

    And for general tasks, yes, generally similar opportunity to arrive at a generally suitable outcome through a wide range of generally similar pathways.

    As you specialize and refine tasks, the range of necessary pieces to achieve that tasks gets smaller, and the relative advantage of more and more specific genetic expressions or physical attributes increases... So much so as to, in some cases, exclude some from any chance at ever expressing them, regardless of environmental stimuli.

    Height is a simplistic but relevant example.
    Perfect pitch, which has both a genetic specificity and a timing of environmental stimuli to "activate" said genes, after which period in development, the attribute is no longer attainable.
    World class sprinting is another.
    The baseball visual acuity still another.

    But anyways, this isn't a biology forum, so I'll leave my comments on the topic here. Cheers.
     
  5. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    The fact the entire population is getting taller should tell you a little something about the generality I referred to.
     
  6. Ozmodiar Registered User

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    Damn, assuming someone has to “read more” because they write “natural/innate ability” in a hockey discussion forum. :help:

    in any event, I’ll oblige. Send over your reading list.
     
  7. Ozmodiar Registered User

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    I’ve also thought about Staal as a comparable.
    Solid, two-way, 50 point center.

    ... higher point totals (Staal averaged 47) if a few things click (edge work, quick decision making, puck handling in traffic).

    I’m thinking his floor is closer to Staal than his ceiling.
     
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  8. azcanuck Registered User

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    You cannot be watching the same game. You're essentially saying his stickhandling is elite. It's barely average.And with his foot speed he's not weaving through traffic in an elite way. He's getting knocked on his ass when he hangs on to the puck too long.
     
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  9. Ozmodiar Registered User

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    It’s quite the opposite. He’s good with the puck in space ... can draw defenders in, then use his vision. He has trouble in traffic, small spaces.
     
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  10. CLW Registered User

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    That's my observation too. KK needs to take a few lessons with Barkov this summer in finding and using space with the puck on his stick. KK runs into trouble at times when he tries to force a play by stick handling into traffic instead of stretching the ice and draw the defenders out. Experience will help here as well.
     
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  11. Miller Time Registered User

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    "barely average stickhandler"... :lol:


    you have a very overestimated perception of the stickhandling skill league wide... or... a very different understanding of "average".

    maybe you need to watch a bit closer, or watch a bit more hockey :dunno:. Your take doesn't match either what can be seen easily, nor what the advanced stats show, nor what the plentiful assessments of the player (scouting and current breakdowns of his play and abilities).


    If he were average on our team, he wouldn't be so far ahead on zone exits and zone entries. He's one of the top 3-5 guys on our team at stickhandling/puck control, out of a roster of 23. And would be one of the top guys on pretty much any NHL team, Average? not even close.... that is a terrible, terrible take :facepalm:


    here's a breakdown from last year:
    Why Jesperi Kotkaniemi is so effective at controlled transitions

    here's a nice clip from this year:
    The maturation of Jesperi Kotkaniemi


    and if you take even a few minutes to consider the various scouting reports on him (from other teams), you would quickly see that your take has no grounding at all in the assessments held widely of what skill sets have been attributed to the player.

    this idea that his stickhandling is "barely average" is a laughbly bad take, one that is so ridiculous that it highlights just how biased your "watching" of the games must be:



    "When it comes to scoring goals, his quick release is his greatest attribute. Not unlike Auston Matthews, he has the ability to carry the puck into unlikely scoring areas, and then beat the unsuspecting goalie with a quick wrist shot.
    He is a skilled puck-handler and he uses his stickhandling to buy himself time while looking for teammates. When playing internationally against guys his own age, he has show the strength necessary to carry the puck through traffic, particularly through the neutral zone."​


    He is strong on his skates and has the power and balance in his stride to fight through checks… He also has good edgework and agility and is able to beat defenders in one-on-one situations.

    A strong playmaker not only because he puts the puck on his teammates blade, but more so because he possesses great puck poise and patience for the best option to present itself.”


    from 2019
    "Not only did he score the two goals, he looked really confident with the puck, stick-handling around several defenders while finding open ice and making pinpoint passes to teammates. With all due respect to Jordan Weal and Nick Cousins, they aren’t the most offensively gifted linemates that Kotkaniemi will ever have in his career and they haven’t been able to convert the chances created by Kotkaniemi."



    now, instead of continuing to throw up ungrounded opinions that have nothing but your own emotions and bias to hold them up, your turn to provide the "evidence" of your hot takes...:popcorn:
     
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  12. azcanuck Registered User

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    you'd think a guy who's "He’s good with the puck in space ... can draw defenders in, then use his vision" would have more than ZERO assists in 20 career playoff games.
     
  13. Miller Time Registered User

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    you'd think a poster with an empty argument that's been soundly discredited would pack it in rather than repeating the same bad take over and over again...


    278 professional games
    43 goals
    78 assists

    :biglaugh:

    "when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging"
     
  14. azcanuck Registered User

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    "quick release", "good edgework and agility and able to beat defenders one on one".

    I havent had as good laugh in a long time.

    Is this the onion news network?
     
  15. azcanuck Registered User

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    Regular season much slower, pace in playoffs pick up and time and space is even harder to obtain. You'd think though for a guy who's " good with the puck in space ... can draw defenders in, then use his vision" would use that attribute a little better? Maybe it's not quite the attribute you read about?

    You're the same guy calling Mete and Galchenyuk good hockey players. Explains a lot.
     
  16. Miller Time Registered User

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    Yes, Mete and Galchenyuk are good hockey players, with careers that already put them in the top end of their peers from their respective draft classes. Your comments continue to show just how steeped in bias and uninformed opinions your takes are... big shovel you carry lol.

    Yes, playoff hockey is tigher. And the 20 year old whose skills you critique with nothing to back it with has scored 8 goals in 20 games... a goal-scoring achievement that puts him in a class with Gretzky, Modano and Crosby... so much for barely average skill sets :biglaugh:


    give it up dude... If you want to stay attached to your emotional takes:wally, enjoy!... don't let anyone take away your pleasure and don't worry about it.
     
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  17. azcanuck Registered User

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    You're earlier post about the glowing attributes of KK looked like someone describing McDAvid. No joke.

    I like my fellow Finn, he's going to get better with more strength , but you're hyperbole about him is pure hysterics.
     
  18. Miller Time Registered User

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    keep telling yourself that... and avoiding the simple reality that you have offered ZERO substance to back any of your takes.

    McDavid? please, do point to any post making anything like that kind of comparison?

    when you are reduced to making gross exaggerations to deflect the shallowness of your argument being highlighted, that's a good time to pack it in lol
     
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  19. dackelljuneaubulis02 Registered User

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    Let's just say his ABSOLUTE ceiling is barely a 2C/good 3C and we can all pretend to be shocked if it's any higher.

    Deal? Now let's lock this thread up so I can shed myself of this existential crisis over people's utter lack of talent evaluation.
     
  20. KotkaZuki Gucci is not my gang

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    Speaking as someone who has family who does both, no you do not, will come back fat and out of shape
     
    Per Sjoblom, Archijerej and covfefe like this.
  21. Ozmodiar Registered User

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    Hahaha
     
  22. azcanuck Registered User

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    You're description of KK's skills set, you're 500 word essay. It sounded like McDavid.

    You dont comprehend very well.
     
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  23. Ozmodiar Registered User

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    Valid point, but ...
    - it looks like his line has been asked to keep things simple. Pucks deep, pressure on D. Safe plays only.
    - he does need to improve his passing... quicker execution, more accuracy. That will come. (What you quoted was about getting the puck to the right area, but not necessarily the wheelhouse).
     
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  24. Miller Time Registered User

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    your posts and takes are incoherent.
     
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  25. JohnLennon Registered User

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    This thread is going in circles it's almost not worth continuing this discussion.

    That said... anyone who still doubts KK's upside right now after watching these playoffs is kidding themselves. KK is making huge strides, kid is a big-time gamer.
     
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