ECWHSWI
TOUGHEN UP.
- Oct 27, 2006
- 28,604
- 5,423
sure buddy, we all know you have nohate, no dislike...I don't lol never have...just called it like it was and it be.
sure buddy, we all know you have nohate, no dislike...I don't lol never have...just called it like it was and it be.
dead weight ?? nthe guy was replaced by Nick Cousins, a LESS productive forward...If Shaw had the same value in real life as he all of a sudden has on these boards, we should have traded him 1 for 1 for Laine.
We want to see our young players get a chance but keep the dead weight.
We want to build for the future but not acquire draft picks.
Moving Shaw was a no brainer, which is how Bergevin pulled it off
That's fine but i'm not trying to call people out - we all get humbled by the things we say on here. It's not the point.
It's just when you see posters flip flopping on Shaw (which was many posters here), it just shows you that they don't look at players objectively, but only through the lens of Marc Bergevin.
If Drouin was traded today, this board would flip flop too..because that's what we do. It's not about the game or the players anymore.
It's just about shi**ing on the GM by any means necessary.
No. Again, I want a clear direction.Don't you want the Habs to miss the playoffs...and get worse?
You should be thrilled then.
Hard to imagine someone saying that with the team that the habs currently have and the players they're developing.
Then again, it's hfboards.
I have no idea what Price's game will look like in 3-4yrs from now...he'll be whatever he'll be.
If Chara, Thornton, Ludqvist...can change roles, so will Price and Weber.
It's not any different.
No, you just need to draft well.
You bring up Hawks & Kings, but I can easily bring up the Oilers and Coyotes.
It all depends on where your organization is...the Habs are 2 years removed from being the 4th worse overall.
Expecting and telling your fans that the Cup is your goal this year is just setting unrealistic expectations.
Take a look across the league...young players are starting to make an impact at a younger age because teams need their cheap salaries.
Poehling, Suzuki, Romanov, Ylonen, Caufield are all names who are to be on the team in in the next 2yrs.
PotAto vs POtato
It is natural...hence why i'm not personally concerned about Price and Weber.
Only if you totally ignore the past seven years and pretend like he was starting recently from scratch. And even then, still didn't pick a direction... Still hasn't chosen a path and still shows incompetence in terms of actually addressing acute needs.Hard to imagine someone saying that with the team that the habs currently have and the players they're developing.
Hard to imagine someone saying that with the team that the habs currently have and the players they're developing.
Then again, it's hfboards.
Serious question: did you not follow the team in 2012?
Hard to imagine anyone following the franchise for more than the past 12 months look at how the team has evolved and not be shocked that the same GM has managed to keep his job after utterly gutting a team that had a great core of young talent and touted prospects.
Then again, it is hfboards
Only if you totally ignore the past seven years and pretend like he was starting recently from scratch. And even then, still didn't pick a direction... Still hasn't chosen a path and still shows incompetence in terms of actually addressing acute needs.
It's the same thing we saw five years ago. Team has acute needs and he does nothing about it. And it's not like he's intentionally trying to rebuild either. We drafted 15th this year...
The players the Habs are developping are in Laval......and not much there for the last couple of years now.
As for the team we have is the team that missed the PO 3 tines out of the last 4 years.
Dude, just stop with this... We had a good young core and pissed it away.The team was never good.
We drafted 15th because our GM did nothing to fix the D. Did nothing to get a backup and squandered 9 mil in cap space.We drafted 15 slots higher than half of these boards were expecting because none of you are able to foresee jack ****.
Yeah... right.Unlike people here, I don't pretend to know what the team will be like, but I know it's a much brighter future than it's been previously. It's always "the team is terrible" with no nuance here
Dude, just stop with this... We had a good young core and pissed it away.
And that core was better than the one MB has right now that you keep touting as some up and coming contender.
We drafted 15th because our GM did nothing to fix the D. Did nothing to get a backup and squandered 9 mil in cap space.
Yeah... right.
You say you don't pretend to know what the team will be like and then go on about how great a job MB has done.
And then you say others speak with no nuance about things?
Secondly, you are being disingenious to say the least. Almost everyone here is excited by some of the players/prospects we have. Stop making up strawman arguments that people are saying it's 100 percent doom and gloom.
Drafting prospects is the least a GM can do. We have Timmins for that. And apart from the drafted talent MB has done very little to actually improve this club over the years. He hasn't picked a direction and even worse, when we've needed help at a position he's been completely impotent to do anything.
Yes we have some good prospects and YES he's a crappy GM. BOTH can be factually correct. You seem to think the two must be contradictory... they aren't. Some of the worst GMs in league history had great prospects in their system because they unintentionally tanked their team. That's exactly what happened with MB.
The team was never good. Some of you seem to think there was a base for a contender with nothing in the pipeline and nothing even coming close to a center on the team. Yeah I remember 2012 very well.
We drafted 15 slots higher than half of these boards were expecting because none of you are able to foresee jack ****. Unlike people here, I don't pretend to know what the team will be like, but I know it's a much brighter future than it's been previously. It's always "the team is terrible" with no nuance here.
Yes indeed, that tends to be what happens when you put your eggs in the development basket.
In before the classic reply "we should trade Weber and Price if we're going to do that".
Doesn't need to be that way, but it may not work for sure.
Yeah... right.
You say you don't pretend to know what the team will be like and then go on about how great a job MB has done.
The team was never good. Some of you seem to think there was a base for a contender with nothing in the pipeline and nothing even coming close to a center on the team. Yeah I remember 2012 very well.
We drafted 15 slots higher than half of these boards were expecting because none of you are able to foresee jack ****. Unlike people here, I don't pretend to know what the team will be like, but I know it's a much brighter future than it's been previously. It's always "the team is terrible" with no nuance here.
Yes indeed, that tends to be what happens when you put your eggs in the development basket.
In before the classic reply "we should trade Weber and Price if we're going to do that".
Doesn't need to be that way, but it may not work for sure.
The team was never good. Some of you seem to think there was a base for a contender with nothing in the pipeline and nothing even coming close to a center on the team. Yeah I remember 2012 very well.
We drafted 15 slots higher than half of these boards were expecting because none of you are able to foresee jack ****. Unlike people here, I don't pretend to know what the team will be like, but I know it's a much brighter future than it's been previously. It's always "the team is terrible" with no nuance here.
Yes indeed, that tends to be what happens when you put your eggs in the development basket.
In before the classic reply "we should trade Weber and Price if we're going to do that".
Doesn't need to be that way, but it may not work for sure.
I feel like I'm just repeating myself over and over again lolYou clearly misunderstood that. If you believe that the habs are in reset mode, what would be wrong with coming to game day threads and discussing whether or not the habs are doing what they claim to be doing? The game is played on the ice after all.
It only appeared that I had a fixation on Plekanec because so many people were against what I was saying...Hmmm, at first i didn't like the Domi trade but i can't say that i'm complaining about it today. Pacioretty trade same thing. Deslauriers trade this summer i applaud.
So no i'm not bias. Not my fault if this GM screwed this team up and wasted the best years of Price by being cheap cause he doesn't wanted to screw the future (and now we are in that future and we are even worst).
Shaw wasn't a fixation for me like Plekanec for you. He wasn't even close as being my punching bag.....at any time.
How much space am I renting up there?sure buddy, we all know you have nohate, no dislike...
I'm not missing the point...I'm just not ignoring everything else.You seem to be missing the basic point. There’s a lot more risk built into players outside of the top 10 of the draft and it’s much more difficult and unpredictable an exercise to find the needle in a haystack. Of course it is possible, but you’re significantly downplaying the exercise of finding talent later in the draft. It has been, and will always be, easier finding talent higher in the draft. End of story.
It only appeared that I had a fixation on Plekanec because so many people were against what I was saying...
Which ultimately, proved to be 100% accurate.
But again, feel free to dig up any post I've ever made about Plekanec.
You'll never see me take cheap shots at him...
Yes I'm critical, because he deserved it.
Meanwhile your posts about Shaw are littered with vitriol.
He's never even come close to that type of production over a full season...whether in Chicago or his first 2 years in Montreal.- his productivity, .75ppg, was pretty impactful. That level of productivity is harder to replace than "47pts", stated that way.
- I never acknowledged that he definitively "won't maintain that pace"... if he stayed here, or if he plays in the top-6 in Chicago, I'd bet on him maintaining something in the .7ppg range... no reason to doubt he can maintain it any more or less than Danault, Domi, Tatar, Drouin, Armia et. can maintain or exceed their career PB years from last season.
I don't recall making any statements about how our existing player can all improve their career PB's(?)It's interesting disconnect in your argument here... since you've identified that you think our existing players can improve on their career PB's to replace Shaw's productivity, yet are certain that he can't maintain... Curious...
So was Markov? So we're comparing Andrew Shaw to Andrei Markov?- yes, he's injury prone. So was Markov... good thing we didn't trade him for a mediocre return when he came back eh
Better then Tatar? debatable...either way, just because he was one of our best "middle 6ish tweener wingers" last year does not mean that someone else couldn't step up in his absence this year.- Shaw was the best of our "middle 6 ish tweeners" last year... and the only one outside of Gallagher that plays with aggression and that level of grit... making him an important roster balancing player. His productivity last year was an added bonus to the other elements he brought that his peers lack.
- "why not trim the fat"?
1 - Dismissing? Shaw was very good last year...1- as has been i think very clearly evidenced, Shaw's performance last year was far from redundant... dismissing our most productive winger and forward leader in hits "fat" might suit your argument, but it doesn't match what took place on the ice for our team last year.
2- re-allocating resources to improve the team should always be the GM's focus. My argument has remained that MB poorly handled that in this case because all he achieved was downgrading the roster in exchange for picks that were, at best, a mediocre return for what the player was contributing.
3- we've needed to acquire a top-4 dman and top-6 fwd upgrade since 2012. to assume that this move was the necessary catalyst to achieve those long standing needs is.... a reach (most polite way i can put it).
Agreed,...but in this specific scenario, Shaw trade, it falls in line with what he's told all of us.The GM says a lot of things, and rarely does anything that actually coherently lines up to what he says... that's been the most consistent thing about the tenure of this GM...
Thompson is a role player, he's signed to 1yr...why do you keep bringing him up? He's there to play a role, not be an integral part of this team and you know this.but that reality aside, even if we grant the "get young, get fast" argument, getting a mediocre return for Shaw when the most likely internal replacement is the slower Armia doesn't fit... nor does trading for Thompson and then re-signing him... nor does signing Chiarot for a premium... so at best it would have been a stupid time to use that rational to make that trade.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a prospect, it could be Lehkonen or Byron. As for prospects, we really don't know whether Poehling or Suzuki can step up, we'll find out at camp but i'm not ready to write them off today.Which prospect do we have that legitimately can step into a top-6 role and contribute .7+ppg? MB certainly likes to think that playing guys out of position works seamlessly... Domi managed it, Drouin failed spectacularly... Is planning on Suzuki or Poehling to step in, at wing, and produce at a quality top-6 rate from day one really the intent?
Personally, no, I would not want to see either of our top forward prospects playing in a top-6 role to start the year (unless they utterly surprised come camp, not impossible, but unlikely).
I don't know...I lean on no.Also, with CJ as the coach, do you really think he'd bump Poehling or Suzuki onto Domi's wing before cycling through Armia, Byron, Lehkonen, Weal, Cousins first? That means they get slotted into a 4th line role, which would be the worst case scenario... or more likely, as i've stated from the beginning, we've simply managed to downgrade our top-6 bc the internal replacement won't likely match Shaw's productivity... and the player moving up by default means a lesser player takes his spot on the 3rd/4th line, so we've also effectively downgraded our bottom-6... where our top young prospect plays C....
That's your opinion and you're entitled too it.So, i hope for the final time, i'll reiiterate that this move, on paper as of today, had the only effect of downgrading our roster. The return to justify doing so, makes no sense as it was mediocre at best for what Shaw had most recently shown as an NHL player.
a million different things could transpire that either accentuates this asset management failure, or masks it, but at the time of the trade... stupid decision that neither supports the publicly stated (since you hold his public comments so highly) objective of making the playoffs -which would mean improving from last year, nor came with such a high compensation as to warrant the downgrade at this time.
You can say the same thing about Sergachev too.Yes...and?
We moved Sergachev, our best prospect and only blue chip one at the time, for Drouin. Two years later, Drouin has shown very little improvement, he is the same inconsistent player TB had issues with. If we moved him for a lower return, people would rightfully crap on Bergevin. Where is the problem??
There's a difference between being critical and being derogatory.Do you think anybody who's critical of any player forfaits its right to criticize a possible trade?? The hell are you talking about man.
Making up wild scenarios doesn't exactly make your point valid.I've told you many times I'm not much of a believer in Lehkonen, doesn't mean I want him moved for a 6th rd pick. Are you telling me if Bergevin did such a trade then I would be a hypocrite for disliking it?
That doesn't make any sense. The world isnt so black or white...there is a ****load of activity happening in the grey zone mate.
lol OK...whatever you sayHas nothing to dumping on Bergey by any means necessary.
In other words...you just want to oppose whatever the GM does? Cause that's what this sentence looks like to me.No. Again, I want a clear direction.
I don't want us to miss the POs when our GM is trying to make them because it means he still hasn't committed to any clear path and we will just keep flip flopping.
I've said this so many times before and for a number of years already.
lol yeah...because Plekanec only turned into an anchor when he retired lolWere they littered with vitriol last year?
I don't remember any except for when he took bad penalties that hurt the team….other than that, i can't say that i trash Shaw the way i trashed…..let's say Drouin.
And yeah, you ended up right about Plekanec………..once his career was over.