Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 3

Will Bergevin fill a need with a major acquisition before the start of the 2019-2020 season?


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Milhouse40

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Aug 19, 2010
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Firstly, they are 2020 draft picks...so they're not 2 years away from the day of the trade.

Secondly, like you said, you don't know what # those picks will be at...Maybe Kane blows his knee at training camp and Hawks end up in the bottom 5.

In either scenario, the difference between what they paid to acquire Shaw vs what they received to trade him back to Chicago...is not a huge difference. It's certainly can't be defined as "giving him away".


So picks can't be used to fix holes? hmmm...OK then, I won't even bother posting the amount of trades where draft picks went one way and an established player went the other way.

We'd be here all day.


You have a very narrow view of how draft picks can be used as assets.

It appears you think draft picks are to be used exclusively by the team owning the draft pick, to draft players, and nothing else.

I mean...let's just ignore that our 2nd best Dman, Jeff Petry, was acquired for a 2nd round pick.

That never happened and trades like that NEVER happen.

Got it

Firstly, look at your infos we got a 2020 2nd round pick and a 2021 3rd round pick. So again, it's one and two years from the trade.

Of course picks can be use to fix holes…..but we had picks before that trade too so it's not like we got something that we didn't already have….but since pick can be use, what is he waiting for? Same things were said when Eller was traded and those picks were not used in a trade. In 8 years, Bergevin flat out traded 2nd round pick twice. Petry ans Shaw. Only twice in 8 years….so it's not like Bergevin does that often, we all know picks are like gold to him. Don't make it sounds like it happened all the time especially in Bergevin's case.

And yes, we might end up with #35 just like we could end up with #58.....but that's the whole point. We Don't know, when Bergevin traded for Shaw we knew it was both high 2nd round pick.

My point stands. We didn't more picks and as of today, it didn't make the team better.
Will it help makes the team better in the future, maybe…..but until it's done, it's only picks.
 

The Real Timo

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Jun 18, 2019
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With the amount of back and forth between certain posters, this thread is doomed to eternity.

This thread is destined to beat the longest running thread on HIO... and we got at least 2 more new threads to go... "
Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 4" and "

Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 5"
 

The Real Timo

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Jun 18, 2019
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The future roster looks great at least

Domi-KK-Gallagher
Caulfield-Poehling-Suzuki
Drouin-Danault-Yolo
Teasdale-Oloffson-McCarron

Romanov-Brook
Mete-Weber
Struble/Harris/Norlinder-Juulsen/Fleury

Primeau

And that’s not counting future picks and returns for Petry, Tatar, and Byron...
It doesn't look like a very bright future...
 

The Real Timo

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Jun 18, 2019
14,411
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This is how the thread has gone:

“There is no Hab news.”
“Ok, let’s get confrontational and adversarial.”
“Here’s a barrage of multi-quotes to get us started.”

:sarcasm:
and this is why Bergevin has to make a trade... ANY trade. Fans are people too... they have needs.
 

Runner77

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This thread is destined to beat the longest running thread on HIO... and we got at least 2 more new threads to go... "
Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 4" and "

Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 5"

Can I multi-quote you on that? I don’t think this thread needs sequels. :laugh:
 

Runner77

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and this is why Bergevin has to make a trade... ANY trade. Fans are people too... they have needs.

It’s all a function of the Habs occupying too much attention year-round. Get an NBA, MLB or NFL team in here and all of a sudden, less time is spent arguing Bergevin’s brain farts.
 
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habsfan891

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It’s all a function of the Habs occupying too much attention year-round. Get an NBA, MLB or NFL team in here all of a sudden, less time is spent arguing Bergevin’s brain farts.
Completely agree if we had the Expos back there would be a ton less scrutiny and arguing during summer on these boards.
 

Runner77

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Completely agree if we had the Expos back there would be a ton less scrutiny and arguing during summer on these boards.

Sometimes you need to disconnect from this stuff. When you’re arguing the minutia of it and delving into possible interpretations of what is said and done, it doesn’t take much time before you get stuck in a quagmire.
 

habsfan891

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Jun 24, 2012
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Sometimes you need to disconnect from this stuff. When you’re arguing the minutia of it and delving into possible interpretations of what is said and done, it doesn’t take much time before you get stuck in a quagmire.
Love the proper use of minutiae severely underused word.
 

admiralcadillac

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Oct 22, 2017
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At this point it's a waste of time. You would have more success arguing with a wall. If someone can't realize that a team with a vezina goalie, a norris dman, a 3rd overall pick, a top 10 goal scoring winger, a guy like Gallgher as a kid ready to make the jump and two vets like Markov and Plekanec is not a good core to build upon then i mean at the point he is just ignoring the facts and twist the reality to fit his narrative.

Too bad those players were actually Pacioretty, Subban and Galchenyuk because that’s what they had and they were not good enough.

It was not good enough with nothing in terms of meaningful prospects.
 

76

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Jul 1, 2014
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"trying" to make the playoffs is something Bergeve SPOKE about...it's called setting a standard that you want your team to try to strive for.

Would you have preferred if he said that he wanted his team to be the absolute worse that they can be? I don't get it, since when is speaking into existence wanting to make the playoffs as a bad thing?

I bet if you asked 30 other GM's before the season started what their goal was, I'd wager the majority of them would say that making the playoffs was there goal.

But If making the playoffs was the absolute for Bergevin, you would have seen him be way more active at the trade deadline, he would have packaged the many picks we had at the 2019 draft, along with some of our prospects and moved them for short term help to get in the playoffs.

But we didn't see that did we?

No, instead, we saw him make depth moves which didn't cost much in terms of picks, then in the offseason, he continued his "reset" by moving Andrew Shaw, which for now should pave the way for one of the younger prospects to potentially grab a spot.

This doesn't seem like someone who doesn't know what direction he's headed in.

Like i'm not sure what the disconnect here is.

The GM told every Habs fans that he wants to make the team younger and faster...

So why are you perplexed when he trades Andrew Shaw???

Like he literally told you what he's trying to do lol

Great post again, among many others. I come here sometimes to read about our Habs and I admire your passion and patience and I share most of the opinions you brought. And I know I'm not alone, most of fans not blinded by a weird MB obsession and knowing about hockey understand clearly the direction this team is taking and in how good spot they are right now and moving forward. Peace out ✌️
 
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26Mats

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Jun 23, 2018
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The future roster looks great at least

Domi-KK-Gallagher
Caulfield-Poehling-Suzuki
Drouin-Danault-Yolo
Teasdale-Oloffson-McCarron

Romanov-Brook
Mete-Weber
Struble/Harris/Norlinder-Juulsen/Fleury

Primeau

And that’s not counting future picks and returns for Petry, Tatar, and Byron...

I like it too.

But McCarron over Lehkonen?
And not so sure Drouin can turn it around. Hopefully we get another good forward in the next draft. Tatar is here in the meantime.
 

admiralcadillac

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Oct 22, 2017
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revisionist history at its worst...

fact remains, the core he started with, with nothing but minor depth tweaks, managed seasons of 63pts (in 48 games, =to a 107pt season), 100pts and 110 pts... playing in 34 playoff games, with 17 po wins while winning 3 playoff series.
this site gave us the 8th best prospect pool in the fall 2012... i've seen a top-5 ranking by another publication in 2014...

Since then... we've had two of the worst seasons in franchise history, won 1 playoff round in 5 years, missing the PO's alltogether in 3 of the past 4.

Once his moves, and prospect development started to slowly pick apart that solid core he inherited, we started to decline... only 2 players remaining from when he started with the org at this point... and very few of the picks he used in his first few seasons working out (only galch & lek becoming NHL regulars from 3x 1st, 5x 2nd & 4x3rd round picks in his first 3 drafts).

Your memory appears to be either highly selective, or perhaps failing :dunno:



in complete contrast to your misguided rant, last year's outcome was precisely predicted by several of us last fall... Good enough to just miss or just make the PO's if everything goes largely in our favor... which it did. We were exactly who many of us thought we were "best non-playoff team" was the predictable worst-case scenario that was strongly likely given our roster situation.

While you may prefer the "everything is awesome" head-in-the-sand approach, some of us prefer to discuss and debate what's actually happening with the organization. No one will be bang on all the time in their forecasting, nor do most posters posture that way to my experience.

MB's tenure happens to be a textbook case of poor management practices... applicable to most industries really... even if we ignore the terrible results, especially since his stamp has fully marked the roster, the litany of ex-employees with negative things to say (which, in pro sports, is a very bad sign as athletes and coaches largely tend to shy away from burning bridges because of the very public scrutiny). No hfboard made up these comments, though some fans seem very content to ignore them.

appreciating or understanding nuance surely doesn't mean turning a blind eye to things... after 8 years, MB has established through his actions and behaviors that he is not suited to be an NHL GM. No amount of "nuance" can erase the body of work.



It doesn't "need" to be any way...

just like any industry or pursuit, there are best practices. they don't guarantee success, because life doesn't work that way in any arena, but there are things organizations can do to improve the odds of success, and there are things organizations can do that erode the odds of success.

the issue isn't whether or not to trade Price, or Weber. It's not whether this trade or that trade was a win/loss. It's not whether player X that i like/dislike gets traded or re-signed... Habs need to decide what they want, define a strategy to get there, and then show the discipline and courage to follow it (whether they publicly share it or not). That's what I'd like to see, and i recognize that many other posters feel the same way.

I'd personally like the sport franchise I cheer for to be committed to building a winning team, one that can go on a run of several years where they are a strong favorite to reach the cup finals. That's the goal i'd like to see the team prioritize. How they then decide to pursue that will never fit exactly to how I or any one person thinks is "best", and that's not cause for criticism.

This bs one-foot-in/one-foot-out approach, on the other hand, definitely is imo. It is cowardly, inept, and reflects a leadership group that doesn't know how to achieve success, or worse, thinks that being in the job that they are in and keeping it IS the success they are after... either way, it shows in their approach and in the results... and that's why there's been a lot more, and steadily growing negativity on the boards. More of a "critical" consensus than I have seen since i started posting here (far too long ago lol)

The Gainey era (of which personally I wasn't a big fan) had supporters and detractors and to my recollection, it was at best split if not slightly more people feeling positive about his tenure at the time... The Gauthier stint soured many (and that mostly due to his personality & association to the pro scouting that landed us Gomez rather than any significant reflection on his tenure... it was too short for that) but MB's arrival was met with pretty consensus optimism... optimism that persisted even when he brought in Therrien, whom most of us knew was destined to fail. IMO, even though i disliked the Therrien hiring, MB's first summer of roster moves was excellent (despite not getting the top-6 & top-4 upgrades that we needed to set us up to cup contend)... he "overpaid" for Prust, but at the time, Prust was exactly what our roster needed and I'd argue strongly that it remains one of his best signings/roster moves. Armstrong and Bouillion weren't game changers, but a GM that manages to add to veteran guys that have a strong relationship with his new coach was an excellent management decision... supporting MT in establishing his culture (for better or worse). At the time, I happily posted my support as such.

I started to see MB's lack of competence as a GM by his second summer... and by the third it seemed pretty clear he was out of his league. Given that the on-ice immediate results were still very positive (riding on the coattails of PK, Price & the rest of the core inherited), the vast majority of this board stayed quite supportive through that time... i was regularly bombarded with opposition anytime i posted a critique of his decisions... FFWD a few more seasons of the same incompetence, and now were at a point were there is a pretty large segment of the board that has had enough...

You can call that lack of nuance... I call it delayed realization/awareness... but don't worry, if Molson keeps it up, you'll have another 4-5 years to come around, and surely once he's messed up the current "top-10 prospect pool" and "great young core", even his staunchest fans will have to face the reality of his limited capabilities.

I’m not really a bergevin fan to be honest, I jsut don’t agree with you guys. I never thought the 2012 team was good enough, it didn’t have the support needed and there wasn’t much that could be traded out to acquire more talent.

What you’re saying is that once the core was decidedly not good enough and it was moved, the team got worse as it became clear they were no longer a playoff team. Shocker. You can blame it solely on Bergevin or look at the fact that the team wasn’t deep enough to be able to move assets and maintain competitiveness.

What is failing about my memory? The great core never sniffed a good playoff run. It sounds like you would have found a way to give our shit prospects and future first round picks away for average rentals that would not have won anything. You’d be perpetuating the shit cycle rather than realizing the team is f***ed and needs to start keeping its picks.

Furthermore, no one thought the team would be middle of the pack last year. Sorry. You guys were on another Bergevin ether binge and though Domi would have 4 goals and the team would suck to high heaven. It didn't.
 
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417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,363
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Ottawa
At the 2019 trade deadline...the Columbus Blue Jackets traded the following to try squeeze into the playoffs

Vitaly Abramov
Jonathan Davidsson
2019 1st round pick
2020 conditional 1st round pick
Anthony Duclair
2020 2nd round pick
2021 2nd round pick
2022 5th round pic
Julius Bergman
2019 4th round pick
2019 5th round pick

At the 2019 trade deadline...The Montreal Canadiens traded the following to try to squeeze into the playoffs

Michael Chaput
2019 4th round pic
David Schlemko
Byron Froese

Analyzing this...I can see one team definitely trying to get into the playoffs.

It ain't the Habs though.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,363
27,813
Ottawa
Firstly, look at your infos we got a 2020 2nd round pick and a 2021 3rd round pick. So again, it's one and two years from the trade.
You're right...my bad

Of course picks can be use to fix holes…..but we had picks before that trade too so it's not like we got something that we didn't already have….but since pick can be use, what is he waiting for? Same things were said when Eller was traded and those picks were not used in a trade. In 8 years, Bergevin flat out traded 2nd round pick twice. Petry ans Shaw. Only twice in 8 years….so it's not like Bergevin does that often, we all know picks are like gold to him. Don't make it sounds like it happened all the time especially in Bergevin's case.
And now we have more - which SHOULD come in handy when exploring the trade market for an actual need.

Shaw was redundant on this team...they eliminated a redundancy and added assets.

What's the problem?

And yes, we might end up with #35 just like we could end up with #58.....but that's the whole point. We Don't know, when Bergevin traded for Shaw we knew it was both high 2nd round pick.
We don't know...but yet some say they do and that the trade is awful.

My point stands. We didn't more picks and as of today, it didn't make the team better.
Will it help makes the team better in the future, maybe…..but until it's done, it's only picks.
There you have it...

Does a team who doesn't have a defined direction make moves to make the team better in the future?

You're making my point for me.

You're ignoring what's right there in front of you, you're acknowledging what he said he was going to do.

But you don't even realize it.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,363
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Ottawa
So I can see that a few posters are taking subliminal shots at other posters for...well, making posts using the muti-quote.

So i'll drop this topic and let it be.

Shout out to those who participated in this discussion with respect.

A bientot!
 

habsfan891

Registered User
Jun 24, 2012
8,953
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Nova Scotia
You're right...my bad


And now we have more - which SHOULD come in handy when exploring the trade market for an actual need.

Shaw was redundant on this team...they eliminated a redundancy and added assets.

What's the problem?


We don't know...but yet some say they do and that the trade is awful.


There you have it...

Does a team who doesn't have a defined direction make moves to make the team better in the future?

You're making my point for me.

You're ignoring what's right there in front of you, you're acknowledging what he said he was going to do.

But you don't even realize it.
Your ignoring that the team needs to be better before those picks will be in the nhl because our 2 best players will be 35+ at that point and no longer top contributors so the picks arent really making the team better so much as holding it firm in the same position
 

Kent Nilsson

Imagine cringing at Brock Nelson like a moron
Jan 31, 2016
4,458
4,256
The future roster looks great at least

Domi-KK-Gallagher
Caulfield-Poehling-Suzuki
Drouin-Danault-Yolo
Teasdale-Oloffson-McCarron

Romanov-Brook
Mete-Weber
Struble/Harris/Norlinder-Juulsen/Fleury

Primeau

And that’s not counting future picks and returns for Petry, Tatar, and Byron...

So every good to average prospect we have ends up a top6 forward and top pairing D :eyeroll:

Also lol at that 4th line
 
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