Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 3

Will Bergevin fill a need with a major acquisition before the start of the 2019-2020 season?


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Miller Time

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Sep 16, 2004
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I just feel like we have a bunch of guys that will be able to take over those minutes and probably do just as well.

Also calling Shaw a 50 pt player is a stretch. Last year was his best year ever and he didn't reach 50pts. Traditionally his pace is closer to what Armia got last year... and I imagine Armia will be one of the guys counted on to play some of those minutes.

Right.... Who takes Armia's place on JKO's RW?

It's not just the loss of the productivity (.75ppg), it's that the player who moves up means a lesser player fills their spot... And that's before injuries occur.

It's not really about Shaw, it's about replacing what was a solid top 6 contribution.

We've added Cousins and Weal. Both are lesser players than Shaw, so no matter how you slice it, the forward roster starts the season thinner & weaker than a year ago. 19-year old JKO & 20-year old Poehling the best odds of picking up the slack.

Would've made way more sense if we were actually committed to a proper rebuild, but yet again MB prefers the one-foot in one-foot out approach
 

Runner77

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Last season, 1 rookie exceeded Shaw's point total and ppg productivity... Elias Petersson.
year before, a bit better with 8 that beat his pt total, though only 4 the ppg (Barzal, keller, gourder, connor, debrincat...)
before that, 6 & 3 (matthews, marner, laine, nylander, aho, tkachuk... studs like point, rantanen, guentzel didn't )

my point being that, i'll be thrilled if either Poehling or Suzuki can step in and perform at/above the level of the top rookie skaters of the past few years (which is what it would take to replace Shaw's productivity last year), but i'm not banking on that and it would also mean playing them out of position.

Not much in MB's history, nor CJulien's approach, would suggest their prone to banking heavily on pure rookies to step in and play significant roles... could be, but doesn't seem the most plausible explanation.

more consistent with what we've seen, is that he made a mistake, thought he could out-manoueuvre other GM's and got stuck downgrading his roster even while everyone and their dog knows that playoffs is the intention and the internal (price/weber/molson?) and external (media/fans) pressure to do so will be huge.

Adding to the PPG argument, Shaw ranked second on the Habs last season, right behind Domi.

Amazing how his production is continuing to be discounted. It's not an issue to have traded him but what was the goal? A 2nd and a 3rd round pick sound like a lowly return.
 
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ZUKI

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Oct 23, 2003
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who cares how m,any days/weeks, he's older therefore not participating in the youth movement, au contraire.
strong logic i see ...
examen-03.jpg
 

417

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No, just better than anyone currently in place.

When you miss the playoffs, and you want to make the playoffs, downgrading from your most productive winger is a pretty poor strategy.
He had 47pts during a career year, there are players on the Habs who are just as good and have the potential to be even better.

But really it comes down to this

- He had a career year, we both acknowledge he's not going to maintain that pace.

- we know he's injury prone and the likelihood of him missing more games this coming season is high.

- the Habs are loaded with these similar middle 6ish tweener wingers. Why not trim some fat and get some picks, because you're going to need them if you want to acquire a top 4 Dman or a legit top line forward.

And if the GM says that he's going to go with you and speed, then there should be no suprise that he trades Shaw.

If it allows one of our prospects a spot on the team...isn't that what we all want?
 
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Lafleurs Guy

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I’m really not getting you. You are all over the place. My opinion is that habs have been badly managed the last 7 years. And their drafting has been awful. Mb should have fired Timmins the minute he came in.
I think it would've been better if we'd made Timmins the GM and not hired MB at all.

Hard to imagine a GM doing a worse job with our core than MB did with us.
 
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WinterLion

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Right.... Who takes Armia's place on JKO's RW?

It's not just the loss of the productivity (.75ppg), it's that the player who moves up means a lesser player fills their spot... And that's before injuries occur.

It's not really about Shaw, it's about replacing what was a solid top 6 contribution.

We've added Cousins and Weal. Both are lesser players than Shaw, so no matter how you slice it, the forward roster starts the season thinner & weaker than a year ago. 19-year old JKO & 20-year old Poehling the best odds of picking up the slack.

Would've made way more sense if we were actually committed to a proper rebuild, but yet again MB prefers the one-foot in one-foot out approach

Obviously I think the hope will be that some of the young players step up and fill those minutes. Poehling & Suzuki are the obvious choices but there are other players who may come into camp and steal spots.
 
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417

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I am not going to call you out on anything and the fact that you would throw that at me is really bizarre. I read posts from you saying that you were done with this forum and if I was that type of low brow personality I could have quoted those before today. I maintain that if we are truly in reset mode we should get to see our young talent have prominent roles on the team. Why is that so bizarre?
Well you said you wanted to see me in GDT to see if they're playing their youth and you wanted to see what I would say?

Did I misunderstand that?
 

smirob

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If Shaw had the same value in real life as he all of a sudden has on these boards, we should have traded him 1 for 1 for Laine.

We want to see our young players get a chance but keep the dead weight.

We want to build for the future but not acquire draft picks.

Moving Shaw was a no brainer, which is how Bergevin pulled it off
 

OldCraig71

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Well you said you wanted to see me in GDT to see if they're playing their youth and you wanted to see what I would say?

Did I misunderstand that?
You clearly misunderstood that. If you believe that the habs are in reset mode, what would be wrong with coming to game day threads and discussing whether or not the habs are doing what they claim to be doing? The game is played on the ice after all.
 

OldCraig71

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This was my take last year and it was mentioned more than once the next two drafts would be "stocked." I mean what does getting a player like Caufield at 15th indicate other than we should have been all in on additional picks early on. He could have made that happen for last year and this year coming. Talk about taking a direction that was the right one IMO. This isn't just hindsight it was spoken of more than once about how smart teams know when to fold them. Good post.
Exactly! Taking those measures would have accelerated things for sure, we are not in a position to reset, we have three major holes on the roster and how exactly do you reset when you are lacking a star first-line centre and a big name number one left D? You simply don't do it.
 
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Miller Time

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He had 47pts during a career year, there are players on the Habs who are just as good and have the potential to be even better.

But really it comes down to this

- He had a career year, we both acknowledge he's not going to maintain that pace.

- we know he's injury prone and the likelihood of him missing more games this coming season is high.

- the Habs are loaded with these similar middle 6ish tweener wingers. Why not trim some fat and get some picks, because you're going to need them if you want to acquire a top 4 Dman or a legit top line forward.

And if the GM says that he's going to go with you and speed, then there should be no suprise that he trades Shaw.

If it allows one of our prospects a spot on the team...isn't that what we all want?

- his productivity, .75ppg, was pretty impactful. That level of productivity is harder to replace than "47pts", stated that way.
- I never acknowledged that he definitively "won't maintain that pace"... if he stayed here, or if he plays in the top-6 in Chicago, I'd bet on him maintaining something in the .7ppg range... no reason to doubt he can maintain it any more or less than Danault, Domi, Tatar, Drouin, Armia et. can maintain or exceed their career PB years from last season.
It's interesting disconnect in your argument here... since you've identified that you think our existing players can improve on their career PB's to replace Shaw's productivity, yet are certain that he can't maintain... Curious...
- yes, he's injury prone. So was Markov... good thing we didn't trade him for a mediocre return when he came back eh
- Shaw was the best of our "middle 6 ish tweeners" last year... and the only one outside of Gallagher that plays with aggression and that level of grit... making him an important roster balancing player. His productivity last year was an added bonus to the other elements he brought that his peers lack.
- "why not trim the fat"?
1- as has been i think very clearly evidenced, Shaw's performance last year was far from redundant... dismissing our most productive winger and forward leader in hits "fat" might suit your argument, but it doesn't match what took place on the ice for our team last year.
2- re-allocating resources to improve the team should always be the GM's focus. My argument has remained that MB poorly handled that in this case because all he achieved was downgrading the roster in exchange for picks that were, at best, a mediocre return for what the player was contributing.
3- we've needed to acquire a top-4 dman and top-6 fwd upgrade since 2012. to assume that this move was the necessary catalyst to achieve those long standing needs is.... a reach (most polite way i can put it).

The GM says a lot of things, and rarely does anything that actually coherently lines up to what he says... that's been the most consistent thing about the tenure of this GM...

but that reality aside, even if we grant the "get young, get fast" argument, getting a mediocre return for Shaw when the most likely internal replacement is the slower Armia doesn't fit... nor does trading for Thompson and then re-signing him... nor does signing Chiarot for a premium... so at best it would have been a stupid time to use that rational to make that trade.

Which prospect do we have that legitimately can step into a top-6 role and contribute .7+ppg? MB certainly likes to think that playing guys out of position works seamlessly... Domi managed it, Drouin failed spectacularly... Is planning on Suzuki or Poehling to step in, at wing, and produce at a quality top-6 rate from day one really the intent?
Personally, no, I would not want to see either of our top forward prospects playing in a top-6 role to start the year (unless they utterly surprised come camp, not impossible, but unlikely).

Also, with CJ as the coach, do you really think he'd bump Poehling or Suzuki onto Domi's wing before cycling through Armia, Byron, Lehkonen, Weal, Cousins first? That means they get slotted into a 4th line role, which would be the worst case scenario... or more likely, as i've stated from the beginning, we've simply managed to downgrade our top-6 bc the internal replacement won't likely match Shaw's productivity... and the player moving up by default means a lesser player takes his spot on the 3rd/4th line, so we've also effectively downgraded our bottom-6... where our top young prospect plays C....

So, i hope for the final time, i'll reiiterate that this move, on paper as of today, had the only effect of downgrading our roster. The return to justify doing so, makes no sense as it was mediocre at best for what Shaw had most recently shown as an NHL player.

a million different things could transpire that either accentuates this asset management failure, or masks it, but at the time of the trade... stupid decision that neither supports the publicly stated (since you hold his public comments so highly) objective of making the playoffs -which would mean improving from last year, nor came with such a high compensation as to warrant the downgrade at this time.
 

Miller Time

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Obviously I think the hope will be that some of the young players step up and fill those minutes. Poehling & Suzuki are the obvious choices but there are other players who may come into camp and steal spots.

the player that does "step up" to assume that spot would need to set a huge PB to match the productivity we got rid of, and none of the internal players play with the edge that he does (leaving our forward group even more homogeneous than it already was).

Weal, Armia, Byron, Lehkonen, Cousins... these are the internal guys we're talking about. All enjoyed PB seasons last year, the best of which, Byron, topped out at .55ppg. (Weal topped out at .63ppg with us, through a small 16 game sample size, but even with that was at .33 for the year).

Shaw himself had a pretty big jump in production to contribute what he did last year, so it's not at all impossible that one of them can make a big jump... it's just not a strong variable to bank on, especially for a team that presumably is focused on improving from last season and making the playoffs.


Who are these other players you think "may" come into camp and steal spots?

Peca, McCarron, Hudon, Evans, Weise, Barber, Varone... i don't see any of the bunch who could reasonably be expected to make the jump to a solid top-6 contributor... so that leaves one of them stepping into the vacancy created by the player above who makes the jump to Domi's wing... which means a downgrade to the bottom-6 and possibly/probably to JKO's wing...

So again, for a team trying to improve, there seems to be no reasonable justification to force the issue with that trade, especially for a mediocre return (which, laughably to top it off, was less than the cost to acquire the player in the first place lol)
 

Milhouse40

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That was last year....i look at this year and the forward group is older than a couple of team and the defensive group is not any better.

But hey, let's go for the Youngest team Cup.....we already also in list to win The Best Prospect pool Cup....too.
 
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sampollock

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bottom line is, you are always judged on one's job and performance ,

so rating MB C-, because missing the playoffs, with the best goalie in the world, and having a dismal pp, give him that grade, this year no improvements to change any of that, yet.....camp is not started, but.......
3 years of cap money, and a Alzner in the AHL shows that.....


If any of you were his boss, and he worked for you, well you know

yet Molson seems committed to him,
 

Miller Time

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If Shaw had the same value in real life as he all of a sudden has on these boards, we should have traded him 1 for 1 for Laine.

We want to see our young players get a chance but keep the dead weight.

We want to build for the future but not acquire draft picks.

Moving Shaw was a no brainer, which is how Bergevin pulled it off

I see... So now .75ppg and 2 hits per game for a 28 year old player on a sub-4M$ contract = "dead weight"

well, by that logic, hopefully MB continues with the no-brainer moves and dumps Byron, Gallagher, Tatar (all who were less productive last year and except Gally who matched it once, whom have never even hit .75ppg).

We've got young guys to take their spots, who doesn't want to see a top-6 with Hudon and McCarron taking on bigger roles, right?

While he's at it, should probably also do the no-brainer thing and dump other dead weight like Chiarot, or Weber who can't even crack the NHL network Top-25 dmen ranking anymore...

Yeah, that's the way forward!

In bergie we trust!

:facepalm:
 

Milhouse40

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Hey at least I don't hide how I felt about Plekanec.

If you want to pull up some posts I made about Plekanec vs those you made about Shaw

By all means...


Why don't you just admit you don't like the GM so any move he makes, you're not going to like it

It's better then what you're doing now

Hmmm, at first i didn't like the Domi trade but i can't say that i'm complaining about it today. Pacioretty trade same thing. Deslauriers trade this summer i applaud.

So no i'm not bias. Not my fault if this GM screwed this team up and wasted the best years of Price by being cheap cause he doesn't wanted to screw the future (and now we are in that future and we are even worst).

Shaw wasn't a fixation for me like Plekanec for you. He wasn't even close as being my punching bag.....at any time.
 
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Miller Time

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I'd love nothing more than for our GM to pull off a coup in the coming weeks that nets us a guy like Connor, either via offersheet or trade... and that the decision-making on the roster since the deadline has been a tightly-woven strategy geared towards landing that bonafide top-line player...

I've got zero belief or confidence that he has that ability, but from a hope pov, i would love to eat a kilo of Crow on account of having "doubted" his strategic competency.

Nabbing a guy like Connor... to set the stage for a Connor-Poehling-Caufield yankee-doodle-dandy trio for years to come, would be awesome :)
 

Milhouse40

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Shaw had his best year ever last year. It's really not a big deal. It really won't be something that makes or breaks our team. Personally I'm just happy we have a GM that is not scared to trade away guys like Shaw and Paccioretti. Let's face it, most people wanted those guys traded anyway.

Yeah sure. Not a lot complain about the return of Pacioretty either.

But that GM usually mostly trade players that he hates.....or his coaches hate or at the end of the road (Subban. Eller, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk). It's rarely trade giving up players that he likes.
 

Milhouse40

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I have read thousands of posts here about Koivu " would have outproduced " or " would have made XY points " if it wasn't for his injuries . But it n e v e r happened .

Shaw is 29 years old and he had his best season ever last year . Will he repeat it next seasons ? we don't know but in my opinion i don't believe he will

Who cares if he repeats or not......at this moment, for next year, considering where the Habs are, i would take Shaw before more draft picks. Shaw had his best season....so is Tatar who's the same age, why not trade him for some picks while you're at it
 

Kriss E

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indeed... the shaw trade was bad, but not just because the value was mediocre, it's also how it fits into the broader picture of where the team is at, and what it is ostensibly trying to accomplish.

- smallish, softish forward group loses it's most physical top-9 player
- mediocre scoring forward group loses it's most productive (ppg) winger from the previous season
- team adds only 4th liners & journey men to said fwd group
- best top-6 potential prospects are all 1st year pro's (poehling, suzuki)
- no cap pressure necessitating the trade
- team with vezina goalie and aging #1 dman, both in their 30's
- team that has made playoffs a priority, and has only 1 playoffs in the past 4 seasons

factor all of that in, and trading Shaw at this time made absolutely no sense.... unless of course, we got a great return, which we didn't.

it was a mediocre (average) return, and given the context, a terrible trade.

shaw's popularity, or the fact that the original trade to get him was also a mediocre trade that, given the context, was a terrible decision, are both irrelevant.
Only way this made sense was if we are in a rebuilding mode, which we aren't..unless we start seeing Petry and the likes get moved.
 
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Kriss E

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I just feel like we have a bunch of guys that will be able to take over those minutes and probably do just as well.

Also calling Shaw a 50 pt player is a stretch. Last year was his best year ever and he didn't reach 50pts. Traditionally his pace is closer to what Armia got last year... and I imagine Armia will be one of the guys counted on to play some of those minutes.

It's not a stretch as we are discussing last year to this upcoming one. Shaw put up 47pts in 63gp...not a stretch at all.

We dont need replacing, we need more than last year and considering we had a bunch of career highs last season with very little injuries, expecting to improve is..a bit of a stretch.
 
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admiralcadillac

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I think it would've been better if we'd made Timmins the GM and not hired MB at all.

Hard to imagine a GM doing a worse job with our core than MB did with us.

Hard to imagine someone saying that with the team that the habs currently have and the players they're developing.

Then again, it's hfboards.
 
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