Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 3

Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by Runner77, Aug 9, 2019.

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Will Bergevin fill a need with a major acquisition before the start of the 2019-2020 season?

Poll closed Friday at 5:28 PM.
  1. Yes

    9.6%
  2. No

    90.4%
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  1. Miller Time

    Miller Time Registered User

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    Right.... Who takes Armia's place on JKO's RW?

    It's not just the loss of the productivity (.75ppg), it's that the player who moves up means a lesser player fills their spot... And that's before injuries occur.

    It's not really about Shaw, it's about replacing what was a solid top 6 contribution.

    We've added Cousins and Weal. Both are lesser players than Shaw, so no matter how you slice it, the forward roster starts the season thinner & weaker than a year ago. 19-year old JKO & 20-year old Poehling the best odds of picking up the slack.

    Would've made way more sense if we were actually committed to a proper rebuild, but yet again MB prefers the one-foot in one-foot out approach
     
  2. Runner77

    Runner77 **********************************************

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    Adding to the PPG argument, Shaw ranked second on the Habs last season, right behind Domi.

    Amazing how his production is continuing to be discounted. It's not an issue to have traded him but what was the goal? A 2nd and a 3rd round pick sound like a lowly return.
     
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  3. JAPPO

    JAPPO previously Goalchenyuk

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    strong logic i see ...
    examen-03.jpg
     
  4. 417

    417 Registered User

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    He had 47pts during a career year, there are players on the Habs who are just as good and have the potential to be even better.

    But really it comes down to this

    - He had a career year, we both acknowledge he's not going to maintain that pace.

    - we know he's injury prone and the likelihood of him missing more games this coming season is high.

    - the Habs are loaded with these similar middle 6ish tweener wingers. Why not trim some fat and get some picks, because you're going to need them if you want to acquire a top 4 Dman or a legit top line forward.

    And if the GM says that he's going to go with you and speed, then there should be no suprise that he trades Shaw.

    If it allows one of our prospects a spot on the team...isn't that what we all want?
     
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  5. Lafleurs Guy

    Lafleurs Guy RIP Fugu

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    I think it would've been better if we'd made Timmins the GM and not hired MB at all.

    Hard to imagine a GM doing a worse job with our core than MB did with us.
     
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  6. WinterLion

    WinterLion Registered User

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    Obviously I think the hope will be that some of the young players step up and fill those minutes. Poehling & Suzuki are the obvious choices but there are other players who may come into camp and steal spots.
     
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  7. 417

    417 Registered User

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    I don't lol never have...just called it like it was and it be.
     
  8. 417

    417 Registered User

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    Well you said you wanted to see me in GDT to see if they're playing their youth and you wanted to see what I would say?

    Did I misunderstand that?
     
  9. smirob

    smirob Registered User

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    If Shaw had the same value in real life as he all of a sudden has on these boards, we should have traded him 1 for 1 for Laine.

    We want to see our young players get a chance but keep the dead weight.

    We want to build for the future but not acquire draft picks.

    Moving Shaw was a no brainer, which is how Bergevin pulled it off
     
  10. OldCraig71

    OldCraig71 Registered User

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    You clearly misunderstood that. If you believe that the habs are in reset mode, what would be wrong with coming to game day threads and discussing whether or not the habs are doing what they claim to be doing? The game is played on the ice after all.
     
  11. OldCraig71

    OldCraig71 Registered User

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    Exactly! Taking those measures would have accelerated things for sure, we are not in a position to reset, we have three major holes on the roster and how exactly do you reset when you are lacking a star first-line centre and a big name number one left D? You simply don't do it.
     
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  12. Miller Time

    Miller Time Registered User

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    - his productivity, .75ppg, was pretty impactful. That level of productivity is harder to replace than "47pts", stated that way.
    - I never acknowledged that he definitively "won't maintain that pace"... if he stayed here, or if he plays in the top-6 in Chicago, I'd bet on him maintaining something in the .7ppg range... no reason to doubt he can maintain it any more or less than Danault, Domi, Tatar, Drouin, Armia et. can maintain or exceed their career PB years from last season.
    It's interesting disconnect in your argument here... since you've identified that you think our existing players can improve on their career PB's to replace Shaw's productivity, yet are certain that he can't maintain... Curious...
    - yes, he's injury prone. So was Markov... good thing we didn't trade him for a mediocre return when he came back eh
    - Shaw was the best of our "middle 6 ish tweeners" last year... and the only one outside of Gallagher that plays with aggression and that level of grit... making him an important roster balancing player. His productivity last year was an added bonus to the other elements he brought that his peers lack.
    - "why not trim the fat"?
    1- as has been i think very clearly evidenced, Shaw's performance last year was far from redundant... dismissing our most productive winger and forward leader in hits "fat" might suit your argument, but it doesn't match what took place on the ice for our team last year.
    2- re-allocating resources to improve the team should always be the GM's focus. My argument has remained that MB poorly handled that in this case because all he achieved was downgrading the roster in exchange for picks that were, at best, a mediocre return for what the player was contributing.
    3- we've needed to acquire a top-4 dman and top-6 fwd upgrade since 2012. to assume that this move was the necessary catalyst to achieve those long standing needs is.... a reach (most polite way i can put it).

    The GM says a lot of things, and rarely does anything that actually coherently lines up to what he says... that's been the most consistent thing about the tenure of this GM...

    but that reality aside, even if we grant the "get young, get fast" argument, getting a mediocre return for Shaw when the most likely internal replacement is the slower Armia doesn't fit... nor does trading for Thompson and then re-signing him... nor does signing Chiarot for a premium... so at best it would have been a stupid time to use that rational to make that trade.

    Which prospect do we have that legitimately can step into a top-6 role and contribute .7+ppg? MB certainly likes to think that playing guys out of position works seamlessly... Domi managed it, Drouin failed spectacularly... Is planning on Suzuki or Poehling to step in, at wing, and produce at a quality top-6 rate from day one really the intent?
    Personally, no, I would not want to see either of our top forward prospects playing in a top-6 role to start the year (unless they utterly surprised come camp, not impossible, but unlikely).

    Also, with CJ as the coach, do you really think he'd bump Poehling or Suzuki onto Domi's wing before cycling through Armia, Byron, Lehkonen, Weal, Cousins first? That means they get slotted into a 4th line role, which would be the worst case scenario... or more likely, as i've stated from the beginning, we've simply managed to downgrade our top-6 bc the internal replacement won't likely match Shaw's productivity... and the player moving up by default means a lesser player takes his spot on the 3rd/4th line, so we've also effectively downgraded our bottom-6... where our top young prospect plays C....

    So, i hope for the final time, i'll reiiterate that this move, on paper as of today, had the only effect of downgrading our roster. The return to justify doing so, makes no sense as it was mediocre at best for what Shaw had most recently shown as an NHL player.

    a million different things could transpire that either accentuates this asset management failure, or masks it, but at the time of the trade... stupid decision that neither supports the publicly stated (since you hold his public comments so highly) objective of making the playoffs -which would mean improving from last year, nor came with such a high compensation as to warrant the downgrade at this time.
     
  13. Miller Time

    Miller Time Registered User

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    the player that does "step up" to assume that spot would need to set a huge PB to match the productivity we got rid of, and none of the internal players play with the edge that he does (leaving our forward group even more homogeneous than it already was).

    Weal, Armia, Byron, Lehkonen, Cousins... these are the internal guys we're talking about. All enjoyed PB seasons last year, the best of which, Byron, topped out at .55ppg. (Weal topped out at .63ppg with us, through a small 16 game sample size, but even with that was at .33 for the year).

    Shaw himself had a pretty big jump in production to contribute what he did last year, so it's not at all impossible that one of them can make a big jump... it's just not a strong variable to bank on, especially for a team that presumably is focused on improving from last season and making the playoffs.


    Who are these other players you think "may" come into camp and steal spots?

    Peca, McCarron, Hudon, Evans, Weise, Barber, Varone... i don't see any of the bunch who could reasonably be expected to make the jump to a solid top-6 contributor... so that leaves one of them stepping into the vacancy created by the player above who makes the jump to Domi's wing... which means a downgrade to the bottom-6 and possibly/probably to JKO's wing...

    So again, for a team trying to improve, there seems to be no reasonable justification to force the issue with that trade, especially for a mediocre return (which, laughably to top it off, was less than the cost to acquire the player in the first place lol)
     
  14. Milhouse40

    Milhouse40 Registered User

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    That was last year....i look at this year and the forward group is older than a couple of team and the defensive group is not any better.

    But hey, let's go for the Youngest team Cup.....we already also in list to win The Best Prospect pool Cup....too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019 at 8:32 PM
  15. sampollock

    sampollock Registered User

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    bottom line is, you are always judged on one's job and performance ,

    so rating MB C-, because missing the playoffs, with the best goalie in the world, and having a dismal pp, give him that grade, this year no improvements to change any of that, yet.....camp is not started, but.......
    3 years of cap money, and a Alzner in the AHL shows that.....


    If any of you were his boss, and he worked for you, well you know

    yet Molson seems committed to him,
     
  16. Miller Time

    Miller Time Registered User

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    I see... So now .75ppg and 2 hits per game for a 28 year old player on a sub-4M$ contract = "dead weight"

    well, by that logic, hopefully MB continues with the no-brainer moves and dumps Byron, Gallagher, Tatar (all who were less productive last year and except Gally who matched it once, whom have never even hit .75ppg).

    We've got young guys to take their spots, who doesn't want to see a top-6 with Hudon and McCarron taking on bigger roles, right?

    While he's at it, should probably also do the no-brainer thing and dump other dead weight like Chiarot, or Weber who can't even crack the NHL network Top-25 dmen ranking anymore...

    Yeah, that's the way forward!

    In bergie we trust!

    :facepalm:
     
  17. Milhouse40

    Milhouse40 Registered User

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    Hmmm, at first i didn't like the Domi trade but i can't say that i'm complaining about it today. Pacioretty trade same thing. Deslauriers trade this summer i applaud.

    So no i'm not bias. Not my fault if this GM screwed this team up and wasted the best years of Price by being cheap cause he doesn't wanted to screw the future (and now we are in that future and we are even worst).

    Shaw wasn't a fixation for me like Plekanec for you. He wasn't even close as being my punching bag.....at any time.
     
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  18. Miller Time

    Miller Time Registered User

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    I'd love nothing more than for our GM to pull off a coup in the coming weeks that nets us a guy like Connor, either via offersheet or trade... and that the decision-making on the roster since the deadline has been a tightly-woven strategy geared towards landing that bonafide top-line player...

    I've got zero belief or confidence that he has that ability, but from a hope pov, i would love to eat a kilo of Crow on account of having "doubted" his strategic competency.

    Nabbing a guy like Connor... to set the stage for a Connor-Poehling-Caufield yankee-doodle-dandy trio for years to come, would be awesome :)
     
  19. Milhouse40

    Milhouse40 Registered User

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    Yeah sure. Not a lot complain about the return of Pacioretty either.

    But that GM usually mostly trade players that he hates.....or his coaches hate or at the end of the road (Subban. Eller, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk). It's rarely trade giving up players that he likes.
     
  20. Milhouse40

    Milhouse40 Registered User

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    Who cares if he repeats or not......at this moment, for next year, considering where the Habs are, i would take Shaw before more draft picks. Shaw had his best season....so is Tatar who's the same age, why not trade him for some picks while you're at it
     
  21. Edgy

    Edgy Registered User

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    MB says:
     
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  22. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    Only way this made sense was if we are in a rebuilding mode, which we aren't..unless we start seeing Petry and the likes get moved.
     
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  23. Kriss E

    Kriss E Registered User

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    It's not a stretch as we are discussing last year to this upcoming one. Shaw put up 47pts in 63gp...not a stretch at all.

    We dont need replacing, we need more than last year and considering we had a bunch of career highs last season with very little injuries, expecting to improve is..a bit of a stretch.
     
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  24. ECWHSWI

    ECWHSWI bought a MB jersey

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    of course, you think trading a player for another the same age or older means gettingn younger... :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  25. admiralcadillac

    admiralcadillac Registered User

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    Hard to imagine someone saying that with the team that the habs currently have and the players they're developing.

    Then again, it's hfboards.
     
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