Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 3

[Milhouse40]

That's an understatement.


Draft picks can be used as currency as well you know?


Again...if you had your way, you would have dumped Andrew Shaw for a jock strap not too long ago.

This about-face routine you've turned too is very transparent.

I didn't hate Shaw (at least not like your hate to Plekanec) i simply thought it was a bad move and i thought he received a big contract that was way too much at the time. And i hated we had to trade Eller to make place for him......but i can't change what has been done.

But last year, i had no problem with Shaw at all. Still would have traded him, just not for that return....made no senses for a team that is looking to make the PO

 

[Milhouse40]

If you keep all the wingers, it forces you to make much tougher decision if a young player earns a spot out of camp. Also we have quite a bit of depth at wing and unless you think Shaw is way better than the alternatives, then I don't see this as a high risk move at all.

You know that last year if it wasn't for his injuries Shaw would have outproduced Gallagher, Danault and Drouin?

And normally that's how it worked....a young guy comes in and then you make a trade once you are prepared to replace him.....but if none of the kids is ready to play top line minute....then you are screwed.

 

[Runner77]

I didn't hate Shaw (at least not like your hate to Plekanec) i simply thought it was a bad move and i thought he received a big contract that was way too much at the time. And i hated we had to trade Eller to make place for him......but i can't change what has been done.

But last year, i had no problem with Shaw at all. Still would have traded him, just not for that return....made no senses for a team that is looking to make the PO

Are they trying to make playoffs? Maybe they’re still doing the reset thing too.

 

[Rapala]

He is stockpiling picks but when or how does he plan to use them? We need at least two-star players and of course, there are no guarantees but my belief is that picking in the top 5 is our best chance to get them. If we simply plan to reset, who are we looking at as our core? Price-Weber-Gallagher-Domi?

Weber turns 34 tomorrow and Price turns 32 two days later, our two highest-paid core players that many would say have their best hockey behind them. Resetting should mean that we believe that we will be able to compete for a cup(with our current core) while we wait for our young talent to be able to be part of the process. We might be 3-4 years away from our young guns being able to have a major role on this team. (the 300 game mark seems to be the point that good young players get it) I say this about our prospects because we do not have a Matthews or McDavid amongst them that can step in and play a prominent role. You are not a proponent of thinking that a player will mature at a greater rate in the AHL over the on the job training of the NHL, hence the reason I used the 300 game mark.

Without a major trade or trades, we are basically not going to be competitive with the current core in the next 2-3 years. Price and Weber will be 35-37 by then and you see where I am going here. What is the point of resetting? We are not in the correct position to do so, we are not the Bruins or Pens with established stars with a Stanley cup under their belt. We are essentially wasting the value that we still have in the Price, Weber and company. So many of us want a rebuild, for this reason, we can't continue to think that we are good enough and keep adding depth that we don't really need right now, there are teams in the position to do so but that is not us. Good discussion by the way.

This was my take last year and it was mentioned more than once the next two drafts would be "stocked." I mean what does getting a player like Caufield at 15th indicate other than we should have been all in on additional picks early on. He could have made that happen for last year and this year coming. Talk about taking a direction that was the right one IMO. This isn't just hindsight it was spoken of more than once about how smart teams know when to fold them. Good post.

 

[Rapala]

the Habs are not rebuilding

True but they should have been after two seasons of hitting Historical lows.

 

[Rapala]

This was a good time to sell Shaw, given his career year.

Could they not have had more for him? I guess we’ll never know but certainly, Shaw’s last season had positive market value.

MB will come up with it's a "transitional reset" at some point.

 

[BLONG7]

MB will come up with it's a "transitional reset" at some point.

This will be the same presser he gets another 5 yr extension...he definitely will need more time.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Michael Chaput for Jordan Weal

Jordan Weal is actually OLDER by a few days.

David Schlemko + Byron Froese for Christian Folin + Dale Weise
.

the younger player in that group is 28 years old.

 

[Runner77]

This was my take last year and it was mentioned more than once the next two drafts would be "stocked." I mean what does getting a player like Caufield at 15th indicate other than we should have been all in on additional picks early ....

A pick like Caufield indicates that there are several dinosaur GMs who use a player’s height as a determining factor. No other reason to explain how he fell.

Bergevin gets no credit for simply grabbing a faller. He should have never ended up with the worst lottery pick in the draft. Dumb luck doesn’t excuse it.

 

[Runner77]

MB will come up with it's a "transitional reset" at some point.

Sounds like the theme of a pride parade float.

Not that there’s anything wrong with it.

 

[Runner77]

This will be the same presser he gets another 5 yr extension...he definitely will need more time.

Might as well announce a double digit plan in the teens, at this point.

 

[ZUKI]

Well, that thing about the Habs going with youth and speed is that…...the entire league is going with youth and speed.
I don't see teams that are going with Old and Slow has a plan out there.
The league is getting younger and for a couple of years now, it's all about speed.
So Bergevin doesn't have a plan here, he's following everybody else.

The forwards group is 26.5 years old
(Toronto = 25.5 | Carolina = 24.4)
The defense group is 27.8 years old
(Toronto = 26.4 | Carolina = 25.1)

Habs are nothing special in that category, even Tampa has a younger forward group than the Habs.
Youth and speed, It's just a catchy phrase that sounds good with the Fans and the medias.

OCTOBER 2018

 

[417]

I didn't hate Shaw (at least not like your hate to Plekanec) i simply thought it was a bad move and i thought he received a big contract that was way too much at the time. And i hated we had to trade Eller to make place for him......but i can't change what has been done.

Hey at least I don't hide how I felt about Plekanec.

If you want to pull up some posts I made about Plekanec vs those you made about Shaw

By all means...

But last year, i had no problem with Shaw at all. Still would have traded him, just not for that return....made no senses for a team that is looking to make the PO

Why don't you just admit you don't like the GM so any move he makes, you're not going to like it

It's better then what you're doing now

 

[Miller Time]

And Shaw wasn't a strong candidate to maintain that pace either...

No, just better than anyone currently in place.

When you miss the playoffs, and you want to make the playoffs, downgrading from your most productive winger is a pretty poor strategy.

We really don't know how next year is going to play out...

Thank you for staying the obvious.

Last year no one expected Shaw's season or Domi's or no one expected Kotkaniemi to make the team.

I'm going to stay away from these blanket statements that predict what a player can or can't do.

So you're going to completely change your approach to posting? Or just stop posting?

That would be a shame... As much as we may disagree on some points, I rather enjoy reading your takes, as subjective and speculative as they are (as they are for us all, of course).

 

[Miller Time]

OCTOBER 2018

View attachment 249675

Do you know what roster list they used for that chart?

Are AHL bound guys like Alzner included?

Also, keep in mind that since Oct 2018, we've added Chiarot, Thompson, Weal, Kinkaid & Cousins... and Poehling is likely the only new player sub 25 to be on the roster in Oct 2019.

 

[417]

True but they should have been after two seasons of hitting Historical lows.

Yeah for sure

 

[417]

Jordan Weal is actually OLDER by a few days.

A whole 3 days eh?

the younger player in that group is 28 years old.

That is correct

 

[ECWHSWI]

A whole 3 days eh?

who cares how m,any days/weeks, he's older therefore not participating in the youth movement, au contraire.

 

[Habs Icing]

Subban is a false equivalency in your example.

Will bet you fake currency on this site that Subban bounces back to his pre-injury form.

As much as Poile had the upper hand in the Weber deal, he badly miscalculated in trading Subban for so little. Also, some have explained the trade as a pure cap room move in order to sign Duchene, given how the cap max regressed this year and it worked for the Preds.

Name your currency amount and I’ll match you if you want to bet.

Whether the value Poile placed on P.K. was right or wrong is not the point I was making. The point is that at the beginning of the offseason P.K. was traded for pennies on the dollar. Poile worked within a market level.

Also, that cap room excuse is as lame as a paraplegic. If MB had unloaded a player for pennies on the dollar because he wanted to make room for another player who really isn't any better, you would have an orgy of laments here. I'm sure New Jersey wasn't the only team interested in getting P.K. But that was the best that was offered. Market level. Considering we paid two 2nd rd picks for Shaw, MB got fair value when he sent an older, more concussed and injury-prone Shaw back to the Hawks.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Hey at least I don't hide how I felt about Plekanec.

If you want to pull up some posts I made about Plekanec vs those you made about Shaw

huh, actually, you kept saying how you did not hate Plekanec...

 

[Runner77]

Whether the value Poile placed on P.K. was right or wrong is not the point I was making. The point is that at the beginning of the offseason P.K. was traded for pennies on the dollar. Poile worked within a market level.

Also, that cap room excuse is as lame as a paraplegic. If MB had unloaded a player for pennies on the dollar because he wanted to make room for another player who really isn't any better, you would have an orgy of laments here. I'm sure New Jersey wasn't the only team interested in getting P.K. But that was the best that was offered. Market level. Considering we paid two 2nd rd picks for Shaw, MB got fair value when he sent an older, more concussed and injury-prone Shaw back to the Hawks.

You used the Subban trade to prop up the Shaw trade and one has zero to do with the other. It’s a false equivalency.

What matters is that Shaw was coming off a career year and should have fetched more than what MB got.

Plus, if MB is really after the PO, why did he sell him for picks alone? Doesn’t add up.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Whether the value Poile placed on P.K. was right or wrong is not the point I was making. The point is that at the beginning of the offseason P.K. was traded for pennies on the dollar. Poile worked within a market level.

Also, that cap room excuse is as lame as a paraplegic. If MB had unloaded a player for pennies on the dollar because he wanted to make room for another player who really isn't any better, you would have an orgy of laments here. I'm sure New Jersey wasn't the only team interested in getting P.K. But that was the best that was offered. Market level. Considering we paid two 2nd rd picks for Shaw, MB got fair value when he sent an older, more concussed and injury-prone Sw back to the Hawks.

not so sure...

I mean, Bergevin is doing a "reset" just a few years after his "transition year" and there's people defending it, even thinking it's better than a rebuild... you know...

 

[WinterLion]

You know that last year if it wasn't for his injuries Shaw would have outproduced Gallagher, Danault and Drouin?

And normally that's how it worked....a young guy comes in and then you make a trade once you are prepared to replace him.....but if none of the kids is ready to play top line minute....then you are screwed.

Shaw had his best year ever last year. It's really not a big deal. It really won't be something that makes or breaks our team. Personally I'm just happy we have a GM that is not scared to trade away guys like Shaw and Paccioretti. Let's face it, most people wanted those guys traded anyway.

 

[ZUKI]

You know that last year if it wasn't for his injuries Shaw would have outproduced Gallagher, Danault and Drouin?

And normally that's how it worked....a young guy comes in and then you make a trade once you are prepared to replace him.....but if none of the kids is ready to play top line minute....then you are screwed.

I have read thousands of posts here about Koivu " would have outproduced " or " would have made XY points " if it wasn't for his injuries . But it n e v e r happened .

Shaw is 29 years old and he had his best season ever last year . Will he repeat it next seasons ? we don't know but in my opinion i don't believe he will

 

[OldCraig71]

This discussion was never about the coach, who btw I said several times that I doubted he himself would subscribe to this "youth/speed" transition Bergevin started implementing in 2018.

So you saying that if Weal starts taking ice time from KK or Poehling, that you're going to call me out on it, is bizarre.

I am not going to call you out on anything and the fact that you would throw that at me is really bizarre. I read posts from you saying that you were done with this forum and if I was that type of low brow personality I could have quoted those before today. I maintain that if we are truly in reset mode we should get to see our young talent have prominent roles on the team. Why is that so bizarre?