Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by Runner77, Aug 9, 2019.
sure buddy, we all know you have nohate, no dislike...
As of August 14th 2019 at approximately 9:12 EST the answer is ..... drum roll please......
dead weight ?? nthe guy was replaced by Nick Cousins, a LESS productive forward...
We moved Sergachev, our best prospect and only blue chip one at the time, for Drouin. Two years later, Drouin has shown very little improvement, he is the same inconsistent player TB had issues with. If we moved him for a lower return, people would rightfully crap on Bergevin. Where is the problem??
Do you think anybody who's critical of any player forfaits its right to criticize a possible trade?? The hell are you talking about man.
I've told you many times I'm not much of a believer in Lehkonen, doesn't mean I want him moved for a 6th rd pick. Are you telling me if Bergevin did such a trade then I would be a hypocrite for disliking it?
That doesn't make any sense. The world isnt so black or white...there is a ****load of activity happening in the grey zone mate.
Has nothing to dumping on Bergey by any means necessary.
No. Again, I want a clear direction.
I don't want us to miss the POs when our GM is trying to make them because it means he still hasn't committed to any clear path and we will just keep flip flopping.
I've said this so many times before and for a number of years already.
The players the Habs are developping are in Laval......and not much there for the last couple of years now.
As for the team we have is the team that missed the PO 3 tines out of the last 4 years.
You seem to be missing the basic point. There’s a lot more risk built into players outside of the top 10 of the draft and it’s much more difficult and unpredictable an exercise to find the needle in a haystack. Of course it is possible, but you’re significantly downplaying the exercise of finding talent later in the draft. It has been, and will always be, easier finding talent higher in the draft. End of story.
Only if you totally ignore the past seven years and pretend like he was starting recently from scratch. And even then, still didn't pick a direction... Still hasn't chosen a path and still shows incompetence in terms of actually addressing acute needs.
It's the same thing we saw five years ago. Team has acute needs and he does nothing about it. And it's not like he's intentionally trying to rebuild either. We drafted 15th this year...
Serious question: did you not follow the team in 2012?
Hard to imagine anyone following the franchise for more than the past 12 months look at how the team has evolved and not be shocked that the same GM has managed to keep his job after utterly gutting a team that had a great core of young talent and touted prospects.
Then again, it is hfboards
The team was never good. Some of you seem to think there was a base for a contender with nothing in the pipeline and nothing even coming close to a center on the team. Yeah I remember 2012 very well.
We drafted 15 slots higher than half of these boards were expecting because none of you are able to foresee jack ****. Unlike people here, I don't pretend to know what the team will be like, but I know it's a much brighter future than it's been previously. It's always "the team is terrible" with no nuance here.
Yes indeed, that tends to be what happens when you put your eggs in the development basket.
In before the classic reply "we should trade Weber and Price if we're going to do that".
Doesn't need to be that way, but it may not work for sure.
Dude, just stop with this... We had a good young core and pissed it away.
And that core was better than the one MB has right now that you keep touting as some up and coming contender.
We drafted 15th because our GM did nothing to fix the D. Did nothing to get a backup and squandered 9 mil in cap space.
You say you don't pretend to know what the team will be like and then go on about how great a job MB has done.
And then you say others speak with no nuance about things?
Secondly, you are being disingenious to say the least. Almost everyone here is excited by some of the players/prospects we have. Stop making up strawman arguments that people are saying it's 100 percent doom and gloom.
Drafting prospects is the least a GM can do. We have Timmins for that. And apart from the drafted talent MB has done very little to actually improve this club over the years. He hasn't picked a direction and even worse, when we've needed help at a position he's been completely impotent to do anything.
Yes we have some good prospects and YES he's a crappy GM. BOTH can be factually correct. You seem to think the two must be contradictory... they aren't. Some of the worst GMs in league history had great prospects in their system because they unintentionally tanked their team. That's exactly what happened with MB.
At this point it's a waste of time. You would have more success arguing with a wall. If someone can't realize that a team with a vezina goalie, a norris dman, a 3rd overall pick, a top 10 goal scoring winger, a guy like Gallgher as a kid ready to make the jump and two vets like Markov and Plekanec is not a good core to build upon then i mean at the point he is just ignoring the facts and twist the reality to fit his narrative.
revisionist history at its worst...
fact remains, the core he started with, with nothing but minor depth tweaks, managed seasons of 63pts (in 48 games, =to a 107pt season), 100pts and 110 pts... playing in 34 playoff games, with 17 po wins while winning 3 playoff series.
this site gave us the 8th best prospect pool in the fall 2012... i've seen a top-5 ranking by another publication in 2014...
Since then... we've had two of the worst seasons in franchise history, won 1 playoff round in 5 years, missing the PO's alltogether in 3 of the past 4.
Once his moves, and prospect development started to slowly pick apart that solid core he inherited, we started to decline... only 2 players remaining from when he started with the org at this point... and very few of the picks he used in his first few seasons working out (only galch & lek becoming NHL regulars from 3x 1st, 5x 2nd & 4x3rd round picks in his first 3 drafts).
Your memory appears to be either highly selective, or perhaps failing
in complete contrast to your misguided rant, last year's outcome was precisely predicted by several of us last fall... Good enough to just miss or just make the PO's if everything goes largely in our favor... which it did. We were exactly who many of us thought we were "best non-playoff team" was the predictable worst-case scenario that was strongly likely given our roster situation.
While you may prefer the "everything is awesome" head-in-the-sand approach, some of us prefer to discuss and debate what's actually happening with the organization. No one will be bang on all the time in their forecasting, nor do most posters posture that way to my experience.
MB's tenure happens to be a textbook case of poor management practices... applicable to most industries really... even if we ignore the terrible results, especially since his stamp has fully marked the roster, the litany of ex-employees with negative things to say (which, in pro sports, is a very bad sign as athletes and coaches largely tend to shy away from burning bridges because of the very public scrutiny). No hfboard made up these comments, though some fans seem very content to ignore them.
appreciating or understanding nuance surely doesn't mean turning a blind eye to things... after 8 years, MB has established through his actions and behaviors that he is not suited to be an NHL GM. No amount of "nuance" can erase the body of work.
It doesn't "need" to be any way...
just like any industry or pursuit, there are best practices. they don't guarantee success, because life doesn't work that way in any arena, but there are things organizations can do to improve the odds of success, and there are things organizations can do that erode the odds of success.
the issue isn't whether or not to trade Price, or Weber. It's not whether this trade or that trade was a win/loss. It's not whether player X that i like/dislike gets traded or re-signed... Habs need to decide what they want, define a strategy to get there, and then show the discipline and courage to follow it (whether they publicly share it or not). That's what I'd like to see, and i recognize that many other posters feel the same way.
I'd personally like the sport franchise I cheer for to be committed to building a winning team, one that can go on a run of several years where they are a strong favorite to reach the cup finals. That's the goal i'd like to see the team prioritize. How they then decide to pursue that will never fit exactly to how I or any one person thinks is "best", and that's not cause for criticism.
This bs one-foot-in/one-foot-out approach, on the other hand, definitely is imo. It is cowardly, inept, and reflects a leadership group that doesn't know how to achieve success, or worse, thinks that being in the job that they are in and keeping it IS the success they are after... either way, it shows in their approach and in the results... and that's why there's been a lot more, and steadily growing negativity on the boards. More of a "critical" consensus than I have seen since i started posting here (far too long ago lol)
The Gainey era (of which personally I wasn't a big fan) had supporters and detractors and to my recollection, it was at best split if not slightly more people feeling positive about his tenure at the time... The Gauthier stint soured many (and that mostly due to his personality & association to the pro scouting that landed us Gomez rather than any significant reflection on his tenure... it was too short for that) but MB's arrival was met with pretty consensus optimism... optimism that persisted even when he brought in Therrien, whom most of us knew was destined to fail. IMO, even though i disliked the Therrien hiring, MB's first summer of roster moves was excellent (despite not getting the top-6 & top-4 upgrades that we needed to set us up to cup contend)... he "overpaid" for Prust, but at the time, Prust was exactly what our roster needed and I'd argue strongly that it remains one of his best signings/roster moves. Armstrong and Bouillion weren't game changers, but a GM that manages to add to veteran guys that have a strong relationship with his new coach was an excellent management decision... supporting MT in establishing his culture (for better or worse). At the time, I happily posted my support as such.
I started to see MB's lack of competence as a GM by his second summer... and by the third it seemed pretty clear he was out of his league. Given that the on-ice immediate results were still very positive (riding on the coattails of PK, Price & the rest of the core inherited), the vast majority of this board stayed quite supportive through that time... i was regularly bombarded with opposition anytime i posted a critique of his decisions... FFWD a few more seasons of the same incompetence, and now were at a point were there is a pretty large segment of the board that has had enough...
You can call that lack of nuance... I call it delayed realization/awareness... but don't worry, if Molson keeps it up, you'll have another 4-5 years to come around, and surely once he's messed up the current "top-10 prospect pool" and "great young core", even his staunchest fans will have to face the reality of his limited capabilities.
He really said that he doesn't pretend to know what the team will be....BUT it will be a much better future.....Some people are just not trying anymore....
I have no idea how that Shaw debate ended up the way it is. Nobody is crying about Shaw's departure. But everybody, at least a lot of people, are saying that to the question is the Habs a better team, it's IMPOSSIBLE right now to say that we are because the FACTS are that we lost a guy who got 50 points and didn't replace him with guys that actually did. You can say that he was never going to have that again. You can say that he is one injury from retiring. And you wouldn't be wrong.
But to respect the essence of this freakin thread...how the heck can people answer yes he did and specifically mentions Shaw's departure as a sign of improvement? Just for the sake that it leaves other players to prove themselves? Yet again...how the heck does it prove NOW? Isn't that the OP's question? Isn't giving kids some icetime absolutely NOT related to the original question?
You cannot answer that Bergevin improved the team if to that question you answer and add tons of "if" your answer. At best, those can only say that it's still unknown to this day.
I was gonna rip apart your post but @Miller Time did it perfectly well.
Sadly, I don't expect you to have the humility to take a step back and assimilate what he wrote. Shame really, it's not that hard to comprehend.
The team was a long shot from being perfect and a contender, needed some help, some hole to fix in 2012
In 2013, we weren't a lot better, same holes to fix…..
In 2014, we weren't a lot better, still the same freaking holes to fix….
In 2015, we weren't a lot better, again those same holes needed to be fix….
So in the first 4 seasons of Bergevin, he was unable to fix this team. Not with the draft, UFA or trade.
If he had improved a little year after year after year….we might have get there but he didn't, not even a little.
Then he started to punch even more holes in the line-up instead of improving it and we never recover from that yet.
And we are seeing the same pattern with the Left D right now and with the Shaw trade…...instead of improving as we should he's punching more holes.
He screwed the past
He destroyed the present
Now the future look a lot brighter…..cause we have good prospects.
What tells you that he won't screw this up too?
I feel like I'm just repeating myself over and over again lol
The reason I believe the Habs are in reset mode is because of the moves Bergevin has done, which back up what he said in February of 2018...
The Shaw trade is a perfect example of that.
Now that does NOT mean that I think this reset will be successful or couldn't have been done more aggressively.
So I can't control who the coach decides to put on the ice.
Hopefully that clears things up, but it won't...
It only appeared that I had a fixation on Plekanec because so many people were against what I was saying...
Which ultimately, proved to be 100% accurate.
But again, feel free to dig up any post I've ever made about Plekanec.
You'll never see me take cheap shots at him...
Yes I'm critical, because he deserved it.
Meanwhile your posts about Shaw are littered with vitriol.
How much space am I renting up there?
You're obsessed with me lol
with the deals he made so far I think we are the same team. kinkaid replaces niemi, chariot replaces benn, poehling replaces shaw if he makes the team.
I'm not missing the point...I'm just not ignoring everything else.
Were they littered with vitriol last year?
I don't remember any except for when he took bad penalties that hurt the team….other than that, i can't say that i trash Shaw the way i trashed…..let's say Drouin.
And yeah, you ended up right about Plekanec………..once his career was over.
He's never even come close to that type of production over a full season...whether in Chicago or his first 2 years in Montreal.
His production shot up because he played with Max Domi all year. He got more icetime then he ever had, a consistent role on the PP as well.
I look at Shaw as more of a 35-40pt player, which isn't bad, but I don't think he can maintain a pace that would see him score 60pts over a full year.
I don't recall making any statements about how our existing player can all improve their career PB's(?)
So was Markov? So we're comparing Andrew Shaw to Andrei Markov?
Hmm...OK...well Benoit Brunet was injury prone, perhaps I should use that comparable?
Better then Tatar? debatable...either way, just because he was one of our best "middle 6ish tweener wingers" last year does not mean that someone else couldn't step up in his absence this year.
1 - Dismissing? Shaw was very good last year...
If you want to talk about dismissing him, you should talk to all the posters on this board for for 2.5yrs s**t on the guy simply because he was seen as the GM's pet student.
2 - Well we'll have to see how he re-allocates the assets he acquired in this trade
3 - I enver assumed this move was the necessary catalyst to achieve these goals, you're interpreting my words to fit your narrative. This debate will be a lot more civil and productive if both of us avoid such pitfalls.
Agreed,...but in this specific scenario, Shaw trade, it falls in line with what he's told all of us.
Thompson is a role player, he's signed to 1yr...why do you keep bringing him up? He's there to play a role, not be an integral part of this team and you know this.
Chiarot for a premium? I don't know, i'm lukewarm on that signing but if he comes in and is a steady #4, I don't think they paid a premium for him.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a prospect, it could be Lehkonen or Byron. As for prospects, we really don't know whether Poehling or Suzuki can step up, we'll find out at camp but i'm not ready to write them off today.
No one thought Kotkaniemi should even come to North America last year - turns out he had a pretty solid rookie year.
I don't know...I lean on no.
But I also never thought he'd use Kotkaniemi the way he used him last year.
That's your opinion and you're entitled too it.
I don't have to agree with it, and I don't....and that's fine by me.
You can say the same thing about Sergachev too.
There's a difference between being critical and being derogatory.
Making up wild scenarios doesn't exactly make your point valid.
lol OK...whatever you say
In other words...you just want to oppose whatever the GM does? Cause that's what this sentence looks like to me.
Again, you can cover your eyes and scream at the top of your lungs that you don't see the direction the GM is taking this team...and i'll just encourage you to look at the moves he's made since February 2018.
lol yeah...because Plekanec only turned into an anchor when he retired lol
Not like he stunk the joint out for 3yrs prior to that lol
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