Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 4

[frightenedinmatenum2]

One team to possibly look at is Arizona. They have a similar problem to the one Columbus had with Nathan Horton. They are a budget team trying to compete. They have multiple LTIR contracts where they have to spend money for the players to not play.

The only difference is that Horton was uninsured. Voracek and Little are apparently insured, but it still amounts to a few million dollars since insurance does not cover the full salary. Both contracts expire at the end of the season.

I don't know if Weber is insured. If he is not insured, he is owed about a million per. With that said, I don't think the Senators would want to take a multi-year LTIR contract.

Maybe we could get an inflated return for Brannstrom or Kubalik, or dump Joseph on them if we take some combo of Voracek or Little. Or if it is Joseph, Weber. It would make it cash in/cash out for them this season, and they would get an NHL player.

LTIR won't matter for the Senators since without those contracts they are going to be 4-5 figures within the 83.5M cap ceiling regardless. It would only matter if they were going to be below the ceiling because LTIR would disable them from banking cap, and they would lose any additional space they have.

Sorry if this has been mentioned but is it allowed to reacquire Murray? We know he's not going to play this year, sure we'll be on the hook for 20ish percent of his salary but getting that 1.5 million back in cap space would be nice

No. Retained cap space becomes a separate entity from the original cap hit. If the Senators acquire Murray and place him on LTIR, the retained salary does not go on LTIR.

The only exception to this rule is that when a contract is bought out, the retained salary is also subject to the buyout. It is inconsistent, but that's how it works.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

I suspect Leafs helping out a divisional rival would cost as much as just moving Joseph

If it was allowed, it would be mutually beneficial, assuming Ottawa also took Muzzin who appears to be LTIRetired. That way, the Leafs would be out of LTI entirely.

It's not allowed though, so it's a moot point.

 

[dmarc]

Any LTIR space they lose with trading Murray is made up for by not having Murray's cap hit, they'd still have 5.6 mil in LTIR relief from Muzzin, and still be about 3 mil over the cap (beyond what LTIR relief covers) with a 23 man roster.

I'm not sure I follow how they need his LTIR space.

I agree I think LTIR is poorly misunderstood, even Simmer said the similar thing on Twitter the other day, like it doesn't give you extra cap space over another team, it just basically eliminates that player from your cap calculations. So for someone like Kucherov that literally missed the whole year it makes sense because they could remove his contract from their calculations and then activate him for playoffs, but for someone like Murray who I doubt they want to touch their roster,its a wash.

Think of it this way, say Norris were to miss the whole season, we just get back the 8 million cap hit of his contract but there isn't extra space created because of that. Say Norris was never on the team to begin with, that cap space is still the exact same in this scenario

It works for a team like Arizona because the cap hit still counts on your team cap until you exceed the upper limit then you can dip into the LTIR overage, but a team like Arizona gets to have the full cap hit on their cap floor roster while only covering 20% of the salary or w/e

One team to possibly look at is Arizona. They have a similar problem to the one Columbus had with Nathan Horton. They are a budget team trying to compete. They have multiple LTIR contracts where they have to spend money for the players to not play.

The only difference is that Horton was uninsured. Voracek and Little are apparently insured, but it still amounts to a few million dollars since insurance does not cover the full salary. Both contracts expire at the end of the season.

I don't know if Weber is insured. If he is not insured, he is owed about a million per. With that said, I don't think the Senators would want to take a multi-year LTIR contract.

Maybe we could get an inflated return for Brannstrom or Kubalik, or dump Joseph on them if we take some combo of Voracek or Little. Or if it is Joseph, Weber. It would make it cash in/cash out for them this season, and they would get an NHL player.

LTIR won't matter for the Senators since without those contracts they are going to be 4-5 figures within the 83.5M cap ceiling regardless. It would only matter if they were going to be below the ceiling because LTIR would disable them from banking cap, and they would lose any additional space they have.



No. Retained cap space becomes a separate entity from the original cap hit. If the Senators acquire Murray and place him on LTIR, the retained salary does not go on LTIR.

The only exception to this rule is that when a contract is bought out, the retained salary is also subject to the buyout. It is inconsistent, but that's how it works.

This makes sense, wasnt sure if it would be "reabsorbed back" and then we could get that 1.5 million back, oh well

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

I agree I think LTIR is poorly misunderstood, even Simmer said the similar thing on Twitter the other day, like it doesn't give you extra cap space over another team, it just basically eliminates that player from your cap calculations. So for someone like Kucherov that literally missed the whole year it makes sense because they could remove his contract from their calculations and then activate him for playoffs, but for someone like Murray who I doubt they want to touch their roster,its a wash.

Think of it this way, say Norris were to miss the whole season, we just get back the 8 million cap hit of his contract but there isn't extra space created because of that. Say Norris was never on the team to begin with, that cap space is still the exact same in this scenario

It works for a team like Arizona because the cap hit still counts on your team cap until you exceed the upper limit then you can dip into the LTIR overage, but a team like Arizona gets to have the full cap hit on their cap floor roster while only covering 20% of the salary or w/e

That's a good and helpful clarification.

I guess in our case, the only way LTIR could be helpful is if Norris is out for the year and comes back for the playoffs.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Does the jbd and soko waiving completely remove their cap hits?

capfriendly has us at 121K in space.
+ 1.58 mill cap for jbd and soko
= 1.79 mill in space now?

They aren’t removed until , Sens know their waiver status.
Yes it does remove them. Anything less than 1.15 million is removed.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

I agree I think LTIR is poorly misunderstood, even Simmer said the similar thing on Twitter the other day, like it doesn't give you extra cap space over another team, it just basically eliminates that player from your cap calculations. So for someone like Kucherov that literally missed the whole year it makes sense because they could remove his contract from their calculations and then activate him for playoffs, but for someone like Murray who I doubt they want to touch their roster,its a wash.

Think of it this way, say Norris were to miss the whole season, we just get back the 8 million cap hit of his contract but there isn't extra space created because of that. Say Norris was never on the team to begin with, that cap space is still the exact same in this scenario

It works for a team like Arizona because the cap hit still counts on your team cap until you exceed the upper limit then you can dip into the LTIR overage, but a team like Arizona gets to have the full cap hit on their cap floor roster while only covering 20% of the salary or w/e


This makes sense, wasnt sure if it would be "reabsorbed back" and then we could get that 1.5 million back, oh well

LTIR raises your cap ceiling by however much you are over when a player is put on LTIR.

So to keep things simple:
-We have an 83.5M/83.5M cap hit
-Norris (8M) gets hurt
-We call up a player who makes 1M
-That puts us at 84.5M/83.5M.
-Then we place Norris on LTIR, our new cap ceiling is 84.5M.
-We effectively lose 7M in cap space. We don't get the entire 8M because we only exceeded the cap by 1M at the time Norris was placed on LTIR.

We don't get back the entire 8M, we only get back 1M because that is what we exceeded the cap by at the time Norris was placed on LTIR.

Example 2:
-We have an 83.5M/83.5M cap hit
-Norris (8M) gets hurt
-We sign Josh Bailey to a 1 year 8M contract to replace Norris
-That puts us at 91.5M/83.5M.
-Then we place Norris on LTIR, our new cap ceiling is 91.5M.

Further On Example 2:
-Toronto calls us because they love Josh Bailey.
-We trade Josh Bailey (8M) to Toronto for a 1st round pick.
-We are still in LTIR, we now have 8M in cap space and our cap hit is 83.5M/91.5M.
-Our 91.5M ceiling doesn't go down.
-While still in LTIR we can add another 8M of players, but we cannot bank the space for when we aren't in LTIR. For example, if Norris returns before the end of the season we would have to get down to 83.5M.

Additional Example:
-We reject Toronto's trade offer because we love Josh Bailey at 8M per.
-We decide we only have room for 22 skaters on the bus, so we send down a player who has a 1M cap hit.
-We now get 1M in LTIR space, we are down to 90.5M/91.5M.

It is why teams often craft rosters at the start of the season to get as close to 100 percent of the LTIR players cap hit over the cap, then when eligible they send down players and recall their actual intended roster players.

 

[SlapJack]

Balcers says hello

From Switzerland

 

[Golden_Jet]

LTIR raises your cap ceiling by however much you are over when a player is put on LTIR.

So to keep things simple:
-We have an 83.5M/83.5M cap hit
-Norris (8M) gets hurt
-We call up a player who makes 1M
-That puts us at 84.5M/83.5M.
-Then we place Norris on LTIR, our new cap ceiling is 84.5M.
-We effectively lose 7M in cap space. We don't get the entire 8M because we only exceeded the cap by 1M at the time Norris was placed on LTIR.

We don't get back the entire 8M, we only get back 1M because that is what we exceeded the cap by at the time Norris was placed on LTIR.

Example 2:
-We have an 83.5M/83.5M cap hit
-Norris (8M) gets hurt
-We sign Josh Bailey to a 1 year 8M contract to replace Norris
-That puts us at 91.5M/83.5M.
-Then we place Norris on LTIR, our new cap ceiling is 91.5M.

Further On Example 2:
-Toronto calls us because they love Josh Bailey.
-We trade Josh Bailey (8M) to Toronto for a 1st round pick.
-We are still in LTIR, we now have 8M in cap space and our cap hit is 83.5M/91.5M.
-Our 91.5M ceiling doesn't go down.
-While still in LTIR we can add another 8M of players, but we cannot bank the space for when we aren't in LTIR. For example, if Norris returns before the end of the season we would have to get down to 83.5M.

Additional Example:
-We reject Toronto's trade offer because we love Josh Bailey at 8M per.
-We decide we only have room for 22 skaters on the bus, so we send down a player who has a 1M cap hit.
-We now get 1M in LTIR space, we are down to 90.5M/91.5M.

It is why teams often craft rosters at the start of the season to get as close to 100 percent of the LTIR players cap hit over the cap, then when eligible they send down players and recall their actual intended roster players.

Example one is wrong. You get Norris full LTIR room.
They would happen at the same time anyways, call up player and place on LTIR.
If another player goes on LTIR, you get that money.

 

[robsenz]

From Switzerland

Lighting up the National League though!

 

[Micklebot]

Lol, Mendes called out Bobby Ryan and his 1.8 mil cap hit to not play on coming in hot today as why the team is in their situation.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Lol, Mendes called out Bobby Ryan and his 1.8 mil cap hit to not play on coming in hot today as why the team is in their situation.

I think Bobby had personal issues at the time that the team preferred not to have the kids around. Obviously we don’t have all the details, and I have always liked Bobby from what I have seen, but the buy out wasn’t out of nowhere. Not sure that’s the one I would be harping on personally.

 

[2CHAINZ]

Are we there yet?

 

[Daffy]

Lol, Mendes called out Bobby Ryan and his 1.8 mil cap hit to not play on coming in hot today as why the team is in their situation.

Taking shots at a guy as classy as Bobby Ryan is idiotic.

 

[Sun God Nika]

Taking shots at a guy as classy as Bobby Ryan is idiotic.

Takes a special talent to comprehend it that way.

The shot is more at the owner who bought him out to save a dollar and now its hindering the teams success.

 

[Daffy]

Takes a special talent to comprehend it that way.

The shot is more at the owner who bought him out to save a dollar and now its hindering the teams success.

I didn't hear the quote. I just am not a huge fan of Mendes and his holier than thou, woke attitude.

 

[slamigo]

I didn't hear the quote. I just am not a huge fan of Mendes and his holier than thou, woke attitude.

This sentence explains more about you than Mendes.

 

[Daffy]

This sentence explains more about you than Mendes.

Ok there bud lol

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Love Mendes. I'm sure it was all in good fun and Bobby is just as aware of the cap hit.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Love Mendes. I'm sure it was all in good fun and Bobby is just as aware of the cap hit.

Bobby said it was a tough job but someone had to do it lol

I'm sure we'd all love to collect 1.8m to play golf and hang out with family and friends

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Bobby said it was a tough job but someone had to do it lol

I'm sure we'd all love to collect 1.8m to play golf and hang out with family and friends

Hells yes. The only thing standing in the way of me and happiness is this god dang job I have to drag my ass to everyday.

 

[Micklebot]

I think Bobby had personal issues at the time that the team preferred not to have the kids around. Obviously we don’t have all the details, and I have always liked Bobby from what I have seen, but the buy out wasn’t out of nowhere. Not sure that’s the one I would be harping on personally.

It was joking around with him about it in good humour, nothing hurtful.

Personally, I saw Bobby as having done something really admirable by going through the program, I'd have liked to see them stick with him the way NSH did with Watson, but not being in the room who knows, it may have been best for both parties to part ways. Not sure how Bobby felt about it...

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Example one is wrong. You get Norris full LTIR room.
They would happen at the same time anyways, call up player and place on LTIR.
If another player goes on LTIR, you get that money.

You're correct.

• If a team is cap compliant on opening day without using LTIR, or uses LTIR at any point during the season, the LTIR Pool is the Cap Hit of the LTIR player less the team’s cap space when the player goes on LTIR. For example, if a player with a $4M Cap Hit goes on LTIR when the team has $100K of Cap Space, the LTIR pool is $3.9M ($4M-$0.1M). Because of this, team’s often make several roster moves right before a player goes on LTIR in order to be as close to the cap as possible, in order to maximize the LTIR Pool

Long Term Injured Reserve (LTIR) - High Level Overview | Puckpedia

To qualify for LTIR, a player must be expected to miss at least 10 NHL Games AND 24 days of the NHL season When a player is on LTIR, a team may exceed the salary cap. Despite the common misconception, LTIR does not remove a Cap Hit from a team’s overall Cap Hit, it just potentially allows the...

puckpedia.com

 

[alfstheman]

They aren’t removed until , Sens know their waiver status.
Yes it does remove them. Anything less than 1.15 million is removed.

Cool thanks. So wouldnt JBD/soko's cap hit get removed regardless if they get claimed or if they clear waivers?
If yes, then if we sign bailey at 775K, bring up Greig, waive kelly, we'd have 1.6 mill to pay Pinto this year:

Brady 8.205 - Stu 8.35 - Bath 4.975
Giroux 6.5 - Norris 7.95 - Tank 5
Joseph 2.95 - pinto 1.6 - kubalik 2.5
greig 0.863 - kasti 0.835 - bailey 0.775

chabot 8 - zub 4.6
sanderson 0.925 - chych 4.6
bran 2 - hamonic 1.1

korpo 4
forsberg 2.75

Bobby 1.833, white 0.875, delzotto 0.75, Murray 1.562

CAP HIT 83.499 mill
SALARY CAP 83.5 mill

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Love Mendes. I'm sure it was all in good fun and Bobby is just as aware of the cap hit.

Nope!! Pretty obvious it is a woke, liberal, mainstream media, pedo, 5G vaccine conspiracy code that Bobby, Mendes and Bill Gates are running from a Shawarma shoppe in Barrhaven. But if you wanna put your head in the sand and be a sheep that's on you man.

 

[Daffy]

Nope!! Pretty obvious it is a woke, liberal, mainstream media, pedo, 5G vaccine conspiracy code that Bobby, Mendes and Bill Gates are running from a Shawarma shoppe in Barrhaven. But if you wanna put your head in the sand and be a sheep that's on you man.

Sounds about right.