Proposal: Fire Pierre Dorion... Unless?

[Big Muddy]

I see a lot of bizarre (pointless) discussion here.

When this is investigated, they are NOT going to go on what was said in a telephone discussion. Bettman, other league officials, and NHLPA execs are lawyers by trade. They will be looking for written proof such as email or whatever. Otherwise its just a "he said/she said" debacle that will lead to nowhere.

If Ottawa sent the current, applicable No Trade list to VGK (alternatively, Dadonov's agent could have sent it VGK as well I suppose) and have written (email or whatever it is) evidence of this, Ottawa will be absolved of blame. If NOT, then the opposite is true.

I won't speculate on what happened. I think it's wiser to just wait and see how this plays out.

 

[inthewings]

I see a lot of bizarre (pointless) discussion here.

When this is investigated, they are NOT going to go on what was said in a telephone discussion. Bettman, other league officials, and NHLPA execs are lawyers by trade. They will be looking for written proof such as email or whatever. Otherwise its just a "he said/she said" debacle that will lead to nowhere.

If Ottawa sent the current, applicable No Trade list to VGK (alternatively, Dadonov's agent could have sent it VGK as well I suppose) and have written (email or whatever it is) evidence of this, Ottawa will be absolved of blame. If NOT, then the opposite is true.

I won't speculate on what happened. I think it's wiser to just wait and see how this plays out.

The NHL doesn't record trade calls? It feels like they should record trade calls. But then again, they should also have a central registry for NTCs and they don't do that, so who knows.

 

[Micklebot]

I see a lot of bizarre (pointless) discussion here.

When this is investigated, they are NOT going to go on what was said in a telephone discussion. Bettman, other league officials, and NHLPA execs are lawyers by trade. They will be looking for written proof such as email or whatever. Otherwise its just a "he said/she said" debacle that will lead to nowhere.

If Ottawa sent the current, applicable No Trade list to VGK (alternatively, Dadonov's agent could have sent it VGK as well I suppose) and have written (email or whatever it is) evidence of this, Ottawa will be absolved of blame. If NOT, then the opposite is true.

I won't speculate on what happened. I think it's wiser to just wait and see how this plays out.

trade calls are recorded from what I understand (that is to say, the conference call with the teams and the NHL outlining the terms and giving final approval of the deal) so no he said she said. There will be a record of what Ottawa said.

 

[BondraTime]

"According to Friedman on the podcast, Vegas did reach out to the player’s agent about trading him to Anaheim. The agent told the team Dadonov had trade protection preventing him from going to Anaheim, and Vegas said that they, “in conjunction with the NHL believe that it was voided.”"

I think its pretty clear that the state of the NTC was not "settled science" at the time of the trade call either, regardless of how much VGK bitches.

Note the "in conjuction with the NHL:"; this isn't Ottawa reaffirming that it was voided.

That was never said though, the person on Reddit you grabbed that from just misrepresented what was said. Friedman specifically says he isn’t sure that a call was made or not. They believe they had the right to make this deal, as did the NHL, yes. Until the original No trade list was discovered after the trade was made.

He says when Dadonov got traded (after the trade was made) Dadonov and his agent said you can’t do that. This is all from the time the trade was made to the time it was approved hours after the deadline, not prior to the trade being made.

It’s all from 13:00-16:00 of the podcast. If that were the case, it would be written in the 32 thoughts article as it would be a huge piece

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

trade calls are recorded from what I understand (that is to say, the conference call with the teams and the NHL outlining the terms and giving final approval of the deal) so no he said she said. There will be a record of what Ottawa said.

Where did you get that trade calls are recorded?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

trade calls are recorded from what I understand (that is to say, the conference call with the teams and the NHL outlining the terms and giving final approval of the deal) so no he said she said. There will be a record of what Ottawa said.

It sounds like it isn't even about what Ottawa said.

It is about Ottawa submitting an older document and the other parties, instead of asking about it, assumed it meant what they wanted it to mean and they used the old "if I don't ask I can blame them for not asking".

The only thing Ottawa submitting the old list means is that they submitted the old list: it may be a mistake, it may be the most current list or it may mean Ottawa thought it was fine because the two lists were identical. The only party who can clarify is Ottawa.

Assuming that automatically meant a clause in a contract was void is Vegas and the NHL being lazy.

 

[Micklebot]

Where did you get that trade calls are recorded?

read it somewhere, but can't remember where. May be someone speculating, but I thought it was one of the talking heads on twitter, so take it with a grain of salt I guess.

It would be madness not to record them, then again, it's madness not to centrally register yearly NTC list updates, so my faith that the NHL is doing things "the right way" is a bit shaken at this point.

 

[SensontheRush]

That was never said though, the person on Reddit just misrepresented what was said. Friedman specifically says he isn’t sure that a call was made or not. They believe they had the right to make this deal, as did the NHL, yes. Until the original No trade list was discovered after the trade was made.

He says when Dadonov got traded (after the trade was made) Dadonov and his agent said you can’t do that. This is all from the time the trade was made to the time it was approved hours after the deadline, not prior to the trade being made.

It’s all from 13:00-16:00 of the podcast. If that were the case, it would be written in the 32 thoughts article as it would be a huge piece.

Uh oh, thanks for the clarification.

I guess we will see what happens further.

It's still speculation to say so I guess, but it just seems so implausible that Dorion intentionally lied to the VGK and the NHL about the state of the NTC.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

read it somewhere, but can't remember where. May be someone speculating, but I thought it was one of the talking heads on twitter, so take it with a grain of salt I guess.

It would be madness not to record them, then again, it's madness not to centrally register yearly NTC list updates, so my faith that the NHL is doing things "the right way" is a bit shaken at this point.

I have heard it speculated but I haven't seen anything on the process the NHL uses at all. It seems very loose and left up to the orgs/agents to share lists. As to other facets such as "no list was submitted , therefore the M-NTC is void" ; that seems to be part of it as well. The Sens may very well have shared stale information, or believed he missed the deadline .. or told Vegas its still in effect or whatever.. that communication seems to be left between them .. The lack of any formal process leaves it open to mistakes.. that's why businesses formalize processes on filing, record keeping, data entry... Anyone can use Cap Friendly as 1000s have pointed out by this time; but that is not an official record of the NHL and likely prone to some mistakes/ timing errors as well and also does not contain the team names associated.
It seems like a simple thing to formalize on trade calls. A specific form re trade protection could be used and either entered directly or faxed in with the trade. If the agent had to confirm; there would be no more ambiguity. Even a simple yes/no on trade protection in effect would be better.

 

[Micklebot]

I have heard it speculated but I haven't seen anything on the process the NHL uses at all. It seems very loose and left up to the orgs/agents to share lists. As to other facets such as "no list was submitted , therefore the M-NTC is void" ; that seems to be part of it as well. The Sens may very well have shared stale information, or believed he missed the deadline .. or told Vegas its still in effect or whatever.. that communication seems to be left between them .. The lack of any formal process leaves it open to mistakes.. that's why businesses formalize processes on filing, record keeping, data entry... Anyone can use Cap Friendly as 1000s have pointed out by this time; but that is not an official record of the NHL and likely prone to some mistakes/ timing errors as well and also does not contain the team names associated.
It seems like a simple thing to formalize on trade calls. A specific form re trade protection could be used and either entered directly or faxed in with the trade. If the agent had to confirm; there would be no more ambiguity. Even a simple yes/no on trade protection in effect would be better.

To be honest, if a player's trade protection gets invalidated due to some administrative issue, I would expect they should be advised, and given the opportunity to challenge it. This is pretty serious stuff, and seems somewhat negligent not to advise the player that in the league view, he no longer has the protection he negotiated.

The whole thing is amateur hour, and not just on our part.

- No formal registry of NTC lists
- No advisory given to the player when a substantial change to his contract is being imposed.
- No clear record of what did or didn't happen in the original trade call leading to this

None of the above is on the Sens, and any of them would likely have avoided what we're seeing now. I'm not saying the Sens are at fault or absolved of it, we'll have to wait and see where the chips fall, but man oh man, nobody looks good here and everybody seems to want to point fingers rather than own up their part in this mess.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Apologies for not being willing to read through this entire thread and/or other various public sources of info.... but is it looking like the Sens may be penalized for this?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Apologies for not being willing to read through this entire thread and/or other various public sources of info.... but is it looking like the Sens may be penalized for this?

not at this point unless something really damning comes out. I would bet not.

 

[SensontheRush]

That was never said though, the person on Reddit you grabbed that from just misrepresented what was said. Friedman specifically says he isn’t sure that a call was made or not. They believe they had the right to make this deal, as did the NHL, yes. Until the original No trade list was discovered after the trade was made.

He says when Dadonov got traded (after the trade was made) Dadonov and his agent said you can’t do that. This is all from the time the trade was made to the time it was approved hours after the deadline, not prior to the trade being made.

It’s all from 13:00-16:00 of the podcast. If that were the case, it would be written in the 32 thoughts article as it would be a huge piece

Hey, I just wanted to give you the heads up that no, what I shared with you seems to be the actual case, starting at 13:45:

Elliotte Friedman believes that VGK called Dadonov's agent before the trade took place to inform them that the NTC was actually void, where the agent objected to this, and the VGK informed them that they and the NHL believe and agree the NTC is void.

"I have reason to believe that is exactly what happened. I think the agent said that "it is not voided, it was filed", and Vegas said "us, in conjuction with the NHL from [the OTT trade], believe that it was voided.""

This quotes follows Jeff positing this could all have been avoided if they called Dadonov's agent before the fact.

This is like a Sens "Watergate" moment. What happened on that original trade call with VGK?

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

not at this point unless something really damning comes out. I would bet not.

okay thanks.

I think it's a bad sign wrt my feelings for the franchise --- but short of losing their 1st in 2022, I would be more than happy to see the Sens have to pay a fine or give up a draft pick. Would just be further glaring evidence of the incompetence of the people running the team.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Apologies for not being willing to read through this entire thread and/or other various public sources of info.... but is it looking like the Sens may be penalized for this?

We don't know for sure.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Do Make Say Think]

And you just know a bunch of people had brought this up as an issue that could have have serious rammifications and was easy to solve but were ignored.

 

[JackieDaytona]

I can’t see the league trying to penalize any team (short of evidence of deliberate deception) when it’s clear the issue is systemic: the league needs to have processes in place around documentation and a central source of ground truth for ntc and other details of contracts and trades. It’s insane that they don’t. This looks worse on them than any team involved IMO.

 

[Cosmix]

I see a lot of bizarre (pointless) discussion here.

When this is investigated, they are NOT going to go on what was said in a telephone discussion. Bettman, other league officials, and NHLPA execs are lawyers by trade. They will be looking for written proof such as email or whatever. Otherwise its just a "he said/she said" debacle that will lead to nowhere.

If Ottawa sent the current, applicable No Trade list to VGK (alternatively, Dadonov's agent could have sent it VGK as well I suppose) and have written (email or whatever it is) evidence of this, Ottawa will be absolved of blame. If NOT, then the opposite is true.

I won't speculate on what happened. I think it's wiser to just wait and see how this plays out.

Evidence can be someone making a statement as in giving a deposition or under interrogation in a court. However, evidence is better if it is in writing (e.g., a contract or letter) or recorded in another way (e.g., recording of a telcall).

 

[Cosmix]

I have heard it speculated but I haven't seen anything on the process the NHL uses at all. It seems very loose and left up to the orgs/agents to share lists. As to other facets such as "no list was submitted , therefore the M-NTC is void" ; that seems to be part of it as well. The Sens may very well have shared stale information, or believed he missed the deadline .. or told Vegas its still in effect or whatever.. that communication seems to be left between them .. The lack of any formal process leaves it open to mistakes.. that's why businesses formalize processes on filing, record keeping, data entry... Anyone can use Cap Friendly as 1000s have pointed out by this time; but that is not an official record of the NHL and likely prone to some mistakes/ timing errors as well and also does not contain the team names associated.
It seems like a simple thing to formalize on trade calls. A specific form re trade protection could be used and either entered directly or faxed in with the trade. If the agent had to confirm; there would be no more ambiguity. Even a simple yes/no on trade protection in effect would be better.

Agreed. I think the current issue with Dadonov will lead to changes in the administration of the NTCs in the future.

 

[Dan Patrick]

I love that one of the reasons behind not having a central registry is "but what if they get leaked to the media!?" Like no-trade lists don't get leaked all the time. Also not having redundancy and safety measures because people can't keep their mouths shut is a hilariously bad excuse.

 

[Micklebot]

I love that one of the reasons behind not having a central registry is "but what if they get leaked to the media!?" Like no-trade lists don't get leaked all the time. Also not having redundancy and safety measures because people can't keep their mouths shut is a hilariously bad excuse.

You can restrict access to stuff uploaded to a database, there's no reason to be worried about it getting leaked if you set up the appropriate guardrails.

 

[NorthCoast]

Despite the fact that less than a handful of players have ever missed the deadline to file their NTLs, therefore voiding their NTC, Vegas didn't think to double check and confirm that Dadonov didn't have an updated list? That's the part that baffles me. Mistakes can happen, some are bigger deals than others, but they can happen. But you, the buyer, don't want to confirm an especially important part of a player's contract? I'm having trouble imagining any scenario on the trade call where you don't ask a follow up question unless Ottawa specifically says "this player's NTC is void".

NHL: "Does the player have a NTC and does it include trade protection to Vegas?"
Ottawa: "That's not a problem here"
Vegas: "Ok great!" instead of "Great but is his NTC still active?"

Then, Ottawa presumably sends Dadonov's contract information including his NTL but it's the incorrect date. Again, no one in Vegas thinks "hmmmm, that's strange, we got last year's list. Can we email Ottawa to ask about the current list?"

Say no one notices the incorrect date and Vegas gets Dadonov's paperwork together for the Anaheim trade, no one looks at his outdated NTL and sees Anaheim on there and stops to say "hey guys, just noticed Evgeni's paperwork has an old NTL but it has Anaheim on it, can we find out what's going on here?"

Vegas had to miss a lot of red flags during the contract review to get to this point even if the initial mistake, a clerical error or otherwise, originated with Ottawa.

NHL central registry goes through the documents on the trade call. Regardless of what we all believe should happen on that call or with the process, leaving that call any documents passed on from Ottawa to Vegas are supposed to be final. It's not the Agents responsibility, not the NHLs, not Vegas. It's Ottawa responsibility to pass along the correct documents.

NHL teams typically don't call agents during trade deadline right before they make a trade. Why would they take time to do that and potentially miss out on a trade instead of just calling after. There's no reason why under normal circumstances Vegas would vet everything with the agent at any point.

Now, if Vegas had any idea/hint that this might become an issue then yeah, pretty incoherent of them not to double-check. But is there proof of this?

Either way, Ottawa made a mistake. Is it a big mistake? IMO no. It's pretty inconsequential considering how bad the process is.

Honestly I think maybe they ding both Vegas and Ottawa with some fines that go the the NHLPA or something and this is a non-story in a month.

 

[WhoAreYou99]

"My girlfriend goes to a different school"

- Pierre Dorion

she probably goes to Carleton

 

[TheDebater]

The only way they are to blame, or share any of the blame, is if they filed incorrect documentation, and or said that the NTC was not filed correctly and thus void, one of which which seems to be the case the NHL and Vegas have made. We know that both the Knights and Vegas left the trade call with the understanding that Dadonov’s NTC was void. How they are making that claim and is anyones guess at this point.

Vegas absolutely should have called Dadonov’s agent in the 8 months, but that wouldn’t absolve the Sens of filing a void contract as evidence and or incorrectly stating a clause was void.

I commend you for having the patience to repeat yourself about 17 times over the past 10 or so pages because certain members refuse to read through threads before posting their opinion.

I get that logging on and seeing 5 unread pages in a particular thread of interest, but some people need to at least make an effort to scroll through quickly and read what is being discussed before making comments that throw the discussion into a constant loop of the same arguments over and over.