Proposal: Fire Pierre Dorion... Unless?

[Sens of Anarchy]

IMO the root cause of this problem is the lack of standard procedure and the lack of record keeping . The current process is too loose.
Friedman eluded to this and Pierre LeBrun really highlights it. Too much room for screw ups currently.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

That’s not a stretch whatsoever. If someone files evidentiary materials, that’s what it is. Evidentiary material. That’s a part of the trade, and is part of the contract. If they put in the 2021-22 list, the whole issue is solved. If they f***ed up and filed a void No Trade list, they are going to be found at the very least, partly at fault.

This is the better of the 2 scenarios as well, which is hilarious.

Could they have asked why? Sure. Should they have? Sure. This is the NHL, Ottawa would be responsible, and liable, for the documentation provided in a business exchange.

I agree that Ottawa is partly at fault. I'm mostly going off that Strickland tweet that seemed to indicate that the NHL thinks Ottawa is responsible for the whole mess.

No real point in going on about this because all the questions I'd have about this process, we do not have the answers to.

I will say that in my experience if someone asks for something specific and doesn't get exactly what they ask for, it is their responsibility to follow up. Any assumption they make is entirely on them. The question then becomes "what exactly does the NHL trade call protocol ask teams to produce in terms of no trade lists?".

If the issue is the protocol or lackthereof, then that is 100% on the NHL.

 

[Yak]

The player, central registry and Vegas all did the right thing, the Senators miss filed the paperwork.

Lawyers work off official signed and original documents not Capgeek - can we stop with the “it’s on the internet” thing

Unless you’ve seen Dadonov contract with his signature on it you don’t know what your talking about because this is essentially the Sens didn’t send the right document to the central registry and didn’t protect the players rights - and they’ll pay for it

It was common knowledge he had a NMC, void or valid. NHL, Vegas and Anaheim should looked into it before letting a trade even letting it happen.

Seems like a lot of failures on multiple levels here.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

It was common knowledge he had a NMC, void or valid. NHL, Vegas and Anaheim should looked into it before letting a trade even letting it happen.

Seems like a lot of failures on multiple levels here.

With all due respect, I don't think you understand what the issue is.

 

[Yak]

With all due respect, I don't think you understand what the issue is.

oh I do!

 

[Qward]

LottoMax is 70 Million. We all need to buy a ticket and agree that if we win we approach Alfie to be a partner on the condition that both Pierres are fired.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Why??? Vegas is the same team that traded their very popular face of the franchise and didn't tell him they were doing so.

What I mean is, a player who you can freely trade away at any time has more value than a similar guy with an NTC/NMC in most situations. Knowing you're essentially stuck with a player (or forced into a buyout) if he doesn't work out is also a higher risk.

I would assume good GMs have that in their calculations when trading for players.

 

[NorthCoast]

This is going to be on Ottawa.

1- Ottawa provides Central Registry and Vegas with paperwork indicating NTC is void
2- Vegas thinks NTC is void, makes trade.
3- Central Registry approves the trade because it also think NTC is void.
4- Vegas calls agent. Agent says NTC isn't void.
5 -Agent calls NHL with paper trail, trade is retracted.

While the process is flawed, and as slimy as Vegas is/comes off here, Ottawa made the actual mistake.

What will the consequence be, who knows. Assuming they cannot prove that Ottawa made the mistake purposefully vs incompetence, I doubt the punishment will be much. ie: I don't think intent will be as clear cut as with Arizona's recent violation, so I doubt it's a high pick.


I do think PD is potentially nearing the end of his term. Melnyk expects the team to start winning. Regardless of how much he funds the team (tbd) that's his expectation. I wouldn't be surprised if he too wants/expects another top 6 and top 4 from the summer.A) Does PD actually pull off completing the roster within the budget, B) Does EM give him until training camp, or C)Does EM give him until the team is out of the playoffs. (Like probably by Jan before the TD as I don't see Ottawa beating out current Atlantic top 4 without those adds but you never know.) Those are the three scenarios IMO. We'll see what happens.

 

[SensontheRush]

The list they would have provided into evidence would indicate it was a voided NTC. It would literally be hard proof that both the NHL and Vegas would be correct in assuming that the NTC was void upon leaving the trade call, as the NTC provided was void. They would have a piece of evidence given to them, to look at, and very easily clarify that it was void. The due diligence would be there. They have in evidence, a trade clause given as part of the trade, that is void.

Now you are just jumping the gun on everything.

Consider this though: the NHL had teams resubmit paperwork for the Domi deal because it was incorrect/couldn't work within the organizational framework. The NHL is supposed to do its due diligence evaluating the submitted paperwork, yet this went over their heads.

Errors are supposed to be identified by the NHL, and they are supposed to ensure that they accept only correct paperwork.

 

[SensontheRush]

1- Ottawa provides Central Registry and Vegas with paperwork indicating NTC is void

Has this been confirmed?

It doesn't make sense.

For one, why would this be part of the paperwork in the first place? What are they doing confirming that the NTC is void? And somehow the player's agent doesn't know that the NTC is confirmed void?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

So.....why aren't agents required to submit these NTC lists to both the team and the league? You'd think the league with need all the contract documents to review to ensure the contract is valid.

I'm no lawyer though. It just seems like this is leaving a massive dog turd in the yard...you know eventually you'll step in it.

 

[NorthCoast]

Has this been confirmed?

It doesn't make sense.

For one, why would this be part of the paperwork in the first place? What are they doing confirming that the NTC is void? And somehow the player's agent doesn't know that the NTC is confirmed void?

If you read the various write-ups from Freidman, Lebrun, etc...that seems to be the process. The teams hold all the paperwork and are responsible for passing along the documents in the trade call which Central Registry observes. The agent is not involved in this call and therefore it is perfectly plausible that Ottawa made an internal mistake during the call, had an outdated list on file, agreed with both Vegas and Central Registry that this voided the NTC, and therefore going forward the contract did not have a NTC. At no point does anyone have to inform the agent as they assume the agent player new the NTC was voided when they did not provide the updated 10 team list on time. (That they did and Ottawa f'd up is obviously the problem).

It all makes sense in the context of how the system was working.

Is it a totally crap process that is prone to this exact type of error happening? Absolutely. Which I think is also coming out in the reporting and as such I see Ottawa being minorly punished if at all.

 

[SensontheRush]

Delete

 

[SensontheRush]

If you read the various write-ups from Freidman, Lebrun, etc...that seems to be the process. The teams hold all the paperwork and are responsible for passing along the documents in the trade call which Central Registry observes. The agent is not involved in this call and therefore it is perfectly plausible that Ottawa made an internal mistake during the call, had an outdated list on file, agreed with both Vegas and Central Registry that this voided the NTC, and therefore going forward the contract did not have a NTC. At no point does anyone have to inform the agent as they assume the agent player new the NTC was voided when they did not provide the updated 10 team list on time. (That they did and Ottawa f'd up is obviously the problem).

It all makes sense in the context of how the system was working.

Is it a totally crap process that is prone to this exact type of error happening? Absolutely. Which I think is also coming out in the reporting and as such I see Ottawa being minorly punished if at all.

If anything, I really doubt the Sens explicitly told the VGK that the NTC was void, because, well, they would know it wasn't void.

So they trade Dadonov, and then VGK goes over the paperwork, at some point. Either a mistake on behalf of Ottawa on what was submitted, or an interpretation by the NHL offices involved lead to it being deemed "void".

It's funny they say now that they contacted the player's agent to inform them that the NTC was void. If they REALLY did this in advance of the trade, then the agent would have confirmed then and there that it was, in fact, not void, and before the trade went through.

What's key here is that it is not Ottawa that gave VGK this impression. Never are they like "hey VGK, btw, this NTC is void". VGK was given this impression either through their own research, or how the NHL interpreted the paperwork submitted by Ottawa.

#stopthesteal

 

[Loach]

Would be nice if this could get the league to do something about Euge. He can mess with the city of Ottawa and it's fans, run a cheap ass embarassing team, be insane and cause headaches for Bettman...but all of that lead to this. People questioning something fundamental in the leagues' operations between the players, teams and governing body. "Alright you old fcktard. Go sit on the stairs. We are putting a POHO in place and they will report to the league." I can dream.

 

[NorthCoast]

If anything, I really doubt the Sens explicitly told the VGK that the NTC was void, because, well, they would know it wasn't void.

So they trade Dadonov, and then VGK goes over the paperwork, at some point. Either a mistake on behalf of Ottawa on what was submitted, or an interpretation by the NHL offices involved lead to it being deemed "void".

It's funny they say now that they contacted the player's agent to inform them that the NTC was void. If they REALLY did this in advance of the trade, then the agent would have confirmed then and there that it was, in fact, not void, and before the trade went through.

#stopthesteal

Agreed.

And yeah, the agent part is the only thing that is confusing. I can understand Vegas playing dumb and just going for it but how does the agent not get in touch with the NHL to clear up the paperwork prior to the trade going down. I assume maybe just because it's trade-deadline and everything gets pushed through quick.

 

[slamigo]

JR seems to think this is on VGK?

 

[BankStreetParade]

32 thoughts
Dadonov’s three-year contract with Ottawa indicates a no-trade list had to submitted by Jan. 15, 2021 for Season One; July 1, 2021 for Season Two; and July 1, 2022 for Season Three. For the first year, Anaheim was on his no-trade, Vegas was not. For the second year, same thing.
...
Dadonov was traded from Ottawa to Vegas on July 28, four weeks after submitting his list. One of two things appears to have happened on that call. Either everyone was told Dadonov hadn’t submitted the list, or, for some reason, the 2020-21 list was entered into evidence — leading to the assumption Dadonov had not filed on time, thereby voiding any protection.

These are the really interesting parts to me. Say there was an honest mistake and Ottawa filed the first year NTL with the contract and paperwork, Vegas then assumed - without asking - that because they were receiving the previous year's NTL that his NTC had to be void. This somehow didn't prompt anyone in Vegas reviewing this contract to ask "did you receive a second season NTL?" or "we received his old NTL and we wanna confirm you didn't receive an updated list". Unless it's standard to receive a player's NTL from every season of their current contract when you trade for them, shouldn't that raise some questions somewhere along the way during contract review?

If Vegas saw the Jan. 15, 2021 NTL and saw Anaheim was on there, wouldn't it be somewhat common sense to confirm his new NTL had not been filed by his agent by that season's deadline? They had the old list and saw Anaheim on there and that didn't raise any suspicion or merit any follow up questions in the entire time they've been trying to move his contract?

Vegas: "We're looking at trades for Dadonov and his old NTL has Anaheim on it and 99.999999% of the time players don't miss the deadline to file their new NTL. We know from our own players who have NTCs, they rarely make big changes to their lists from year to year. Maybe we should double check to make sure he didn't actually file his NTL on time before we get any further down the road on this thing. We can have this sorted out in 2 minutes if we call his agent." A 30 second phone call to confirm your suspicions could have saved this entire thing from being a circus and they could have back-channeled with the league to punish Ottawa for making a clerical error during the contract filing.

At the end of the day, Ottawa definitely owns some of the blame on this. Whether it was an honest clerical error during the filing of the paperwork or something more nefarious, it's pretty clear Vegas would have had an inclination but decided to play stupid and see if they could strong arm the league into forcing this trade through. And the NHL clearly has a larger share of the responsibility because who the f*** designs a system to submit NTLs that's this stupid and subject to mistakes ranging from simple to intentional.

 

[H2O]

JR seems to think this is on VGK?

If other teams are reluctant to deal with Ottawa in the future, this might be saving Dorion from himself.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

JR seems to think this is on VGK?

I think JR is saying "Since the NHL is not helping Vegas, that means the NHL is saying that this on Vegas"

On the topic of teams might not want to do deal with Ottawa. If we have a player someone wants, they'll come asking. If there is an NTC they will be very precise when they ask for the no trade list. I don't think it will be a big problem.

While Ottawa had a hand in this whole mess, Dorion also gave a 3rd for Hamonic for no good reason. That makes people want to deal with him.

 

[DueDiligence]

The player, central registry and Vegas all did the right thing, the Senators miss filed the paperwork.

Lawyers work off official signed and original documents not Capgeek - can we stop with the “it’s on the internet” thing

Unless you’ve seen Dadonov contract with his signature on it you don’t know what your talking about because this is essentially the Sens didn’t send the right document to the central registry and didn’t protect the players rights - and they’ll pay for it

I find it really funny that for a so called "fan" of the Senators you take ever opportunity to bash them even when there is evidence that they might not be at fault. Strange.
Maybe you should read the thread on the main board where an obvious leaf fan and real life lawyer repeatedly defends the Senators and calls out Vegas and Anaheim.

 

[cudi]

I think JR is saying "Since the NHL is not helping Vegas, that means the NHL is saying that this on Vegas"

On the topic of teams might not want to do deal with Ottawa. If we have a player someone wants, they'll come asking. If there is an NTC they will be very precise when they ask for the no trade list. I don't think it will be a big problem.

While Ottawa had a hand in this whole mess, Dorion also gave a 3rd for Hamonic for no good reason. That makes people want to deal with him.

they'll still call Dorion cuz...well thats obvious. They just wont send him any more Xmas cards.

 

[SensontheRush]

Agreed.

And yeah, the agent part is the only thing that is confusing. I can understand Vegas playing dumb and just going for it but how does the agent not get in touch with the NHL to clear up the paperwork prior to the trade going down. I assume maybe just because it's trade-deadline and everything gets pushed through quick.

Seems like a case closed situation.

Vegas knew of the potential conflict before going through with the trade and decided to just heave-ho right into Shit Mountain.

 

[Liver King]

I think Dorion should be fired because of this

 

[LatteLarrys]

I think JR is saying "Since the NHL is not helping Vegas, that means the NHL is saying that this on Vegas"

On the topic of teams might not want to do deal with Ottawa. If we have a player someone wants, they'll come asking. If there is an NTC they will be very precise when they ask for the no trade list. I don't think it will be a big problem.

While Ottawa had a hand in this whole mess, Dorion also gave a 3rd for Hamonic for no good reason. That makes people want to deal with him.

Yeah, his latest two colossal bloopers just make him look more clueless and easier to exploit, given the whole issue likely stemmed from incompetence. Receipt of NTC was acknowledged interally sure but then I can just imagine cheese-glued to gabriel's pizza box under pierre's desk during the call with McCrimmon. I would be more inclined to take advantage of this GM