Proposal: Fire Pierre Dorion... Unless?

[Relapsing]

Man you people are easy to please.

Dude was a NTC away from downgrading from 7th to 16th. Almost jumped the gun hard when the Leafs clearly had the most interest in Murray.

How is this still being talked about when it's clear it was one part of a larger trade to still acquire debrincat from Chicago?

The only difference in outcome would have been the difference in value between the two first round picks. So a roster player or another pick.

I'm happier with the way it's turned out (barring Murray taking the leafs deep into the post season), but anyone still pushing that dorion was saved by Murray's NTC isn't seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[Hale The Villain]

You can't possibly be using a purely speculative trade that never happened against him. At this point, really?

Not speculative. Been confirmed by several people now.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

 

[Hale The Villain]

How is this still being talked about when it's clear it was one part of a larger trade to still acquire debrincat from Chicago?

The only difference in outcome would have been the difference in value between the two first round picks. So a roster player or another pick.

I'm happier with the way it's turned out (barring Murray taking the leafs deep into the post season), but anyone still pushing that dorion was saved by Murray's NTC isn't seeing the forest for the trees.

Larger trade apparently would have involved additional prospects and picks going to Chicago, far more value than the Sens just paid to trade Murray to the Leafs, who were clearly more interested in Murray than Buffalo.

It's worked out extremely well, but that's because Murray declined a trade to Buffalo and saved Dorion from jumping the gun and giving away more assets than we needed to.

 

[Samsquanch]

Oh this is f***ing perfect wow

I'm thrilled with this development. Thought it would cost way more to dump Murray's contract.

But people aren't dealing in reality if they think this move is any kind of evidence of Dorion's genius.

The only evidence that Dorions moves prove is that life half of this fanbase if waaaaaay too emotional, and need to chill a bit.

 

[Relapsing]

Larger trade apparently would have involved additional prospects and picks going to Chicago, far more value than the Sens just paid to trade Murray to the Leafs

Ya I'd love to see a source on that.

That value difference in 1st round picks is like a 2nd. So marginally more than we've paid otherwise to move Murray to Toronto.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Ya I'd love to see a source on that.

That value difference in 1st round picks is like a 2nd. So marginally more than we've paid otherwise to move Murray to Toronto.

No team would ever move down 9 spots from 7th to 16th for a 2nd round pick.

Last time a team in the top 10 moved down was 2008 when the Isles got a 2nd+3rd for moving down from 5 to 7, then another 2nd moving from 7 to 9.

If all it cost to move up 7 spots into the top 10 was a 2nd round pick it would happen all the time.

 

[Relapsing]

No team would ever move down 9 spots from 7th to 16th for a 2nd round pick.

Last time a team in the top 10 moved down was 2008 when the Isles got a 2nd+3rd for moving down from 5 to 7, then another 2nd moving from 7 to 9.

If all it cost to move up 7 spots into the top 10 was a 2nd round pick it would happen all the time.

So... No source?

 

[DueDiligence]

I'm thrilled with this development. Thought it would cost way more to dump Murray's contract.

But people aren't dealing in reality if they think this move is any kind of evidence of Dorion's genius.

No but this outcome is far better than most people speculated. Combine that with the Debrincat trade and PD is looking far better than he did in the past. The major difference is that EM is no longer around.

 

[Hale The Villain]

So... No source?

None other than past history and common sense.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Pierre is gonna win his second Jim Gregory.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Pierre unleashed with Melnyk gone

 

[guyzeur]

No but this outcome is far better than most people speculated. Combine that with the Debrincat trade and PD is looking far better than he did in the past. The major difference is that EM is no longer around.

Not enough credit is being given to Chabot and captain Tkachuk for their "ultimatum" at the end of the season

Pierre's reaction: "Just watch me"

 

[JD1]

Pierre unleashed with Melnyk gone

I think the impact of Melnyk being gone is Pierre got rid of Pierre

The other possible impact might be Melnyk going tighter on the budget reins

But I think most of what we are seeing stems from a 76m budget

 

[Micklebot]

So... No source?

I went through a few years worth of trades moving down in the first, it typically costs a 2nd to move up less to a later 1st rd pick. Based on that, I'd peg the historical cost of moving from 9 spots to 7 from 16 somewhere between a 1st and a 2nd,

In 2021 moving to 15 from 23 cost 48th and 138. 8 spots to a less valuable pick than ours.
In 2019, moving to 11 from 14 cost 45th. 3 spots to a less valuable pick.
In 2018, moving to 22 from 26 cost 48th, 4 spots to a less valuable pick.
In 2012, moving to 14 from to 21 cost 42nd, 7 spots, less valuable pick.
In 2010 ,moving to 15 from 19 cost 59th, 4 spots, ...
2009 was interesting, 12 from 16 cost 77 and 182 but 26 to 21 cost 37th. This speaks to the cost being linked to changing tiers,
In 2008, moving from 7 to 9th cost 40th, this one speaks a bit to our situation given the involvement of 7th OA
Again in 2008, to 21 from 23 cost 54th.

One thing that became clear though is teams don't move out of the top 10 very often. I went back a fair bit and wasn't able to spot one trade involving moving out of the top 10 without being for a roster player.

This year however, moving to 11 from 27 was two 2nds (34 and 45), one of which was almost a first, so there's an argument to be made that the cost was lower than historically but I suspect this is more of a changing tiers issue.

 

[Micklebot]

I think the impact of Melnyk being gone is Pierre got rid of Pierre

The other possible impact might be Melnyk going tighter on the budget reins

But I think most of what we are seeing stems from a 76m budget

I don't think a bigger budget explains the Murray trade (which imo was very good). But agree that it likely does come into play with the general feel of us being involved in a lot more hockey moves, rather than budget related ones.

I'm curious how big an influence Bowness could be having so early in his tenure. I think it's naive to think him coming in is a driving force behind all the good moves, but I do wonder if having a reputable sounding board might be helping. From the sounds of it, Pierre worked out the DeBrincat deal while out for Dinner with the family, so that one seems to be all Dorion.

 

[HSF]

Ya I'd love to see a source on that.

That value difference in 1st round picks is like a 2nd. So marginally more than we've paid otherwise to move Murray to Toronto.

depends on where in the 1st round

 

[kellmuff96]

These last two trades made me wonder how much Melnyk was controlling things while alive. There's no way we make these two trades while euge is alive.

 

[Tap on the Ankle]

I have been a Dorion hater in the past but recent events are making me reconsider. He really managed to add DeBrincat and get rid of Murray and the four biggest assets it all cost to get that done was a 7th overall, a 39th overall, and two 3rd round picks. If, one month ago, someone told me Dorion would be doing that I would 100% not believe it.

The pro scouting adds really compounds my faith, should hopefully combat the poor adds that have been going on lately.

 

[HSF]

These last two trades made me wonder how much Melnyk was controlling things while alive. There's no way we make these two trades while euge is alive.

hard to say. Dorion has wasted a ton of money

Lets wait and see if he can snag Giroux....that would be a big get to add respectability back to the sens and dorion but it won't be easy

In the grand scheme of things adding cat and removing murray is a step in the right direction but we havent done enough yet to fix this roster

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

hard to say. Dorion has wasted a ton of money

Lets wait and see if he can snag Giroux....that would be a big get to add respectability back to the sens and dorion but it won't be easy

In the grand scheme of things adding cat and removing murray is a step in the right direction but we havent done enough yet to fix this roster

Wasting money is often a hallmark of penny-pinching though — there's a reason the saying goes "penny wise, pound foolish." Very plausible that money waste is a direct symptom of Melnyk's miserly ways.

Out of curiosity, though: what do you think needs to be done to fix the roster? We're hearing all the right things about adding a contributor at forward and a top-four defenceman — would that be enough of a fix? Or do you have deeper concerns?

 

[HSF]

Wasting money is often a hallmark of penny-pinching though — there's a reason the saying goes "penny wise, pound foolish." Very plausible that money waste is a direct symptom of Melnyk's miserly ways.

Out of curiosity, though: what do you think needs to be done to fix the roster? We're hearing all the right things about adding a contributor at forward and a top-four defenceman — would that be enough of a fix? Or do you have deeper concerns?

top 6 fwd and a legit top 4 defensmen. No more holden/hamonic type pickups. We need a defensemen who would actually be a top 4 on a contending team.

If we add a Giroux + Weegar/Marino/Chychrun and a few things go our way Sanderson/Forsberg I would say we are a cup contending team.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

same discussion as in here

Management - GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

His position is Assistant GM, which is a bit of a vague position and can include a variety of different responsibilities that varies from team to team. Considering they listed his experience in Pro Scouting as a reason why he is a good hire when they announced he would be joining the team, it's...

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