Proposal: Fire Pierre Dorion... Unless?

[Wallet Inspector]

Maybe a stupid thing to say but why are NTCs, not like, automatically transferred or made known to the team getting the player, in the same way the team knows what a player's salary is when they obtain him.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Maybe a stupid thing to say but why are NTCs, not like, automatically transferred or made known to the team getting the player, in the same way the team knows what a player's salary is when they obtain him.

Because players want the ability to change their mind in terms of where they'll accept a trade to. If they are allowed to change their list, then there needs to be deadlines and it sounds like the deadlines are negotiated during contract talks, they are not standardized.

 

[Agent Zub]

Does Dorion have the self awareness to know that the vast majority of the fanbase thinks he's terrible and wants him gone?

 

[JackieDaytona]

I just hope the hallway high fives slow down. It’s the only measure that seems to register for him.

Please for the love of god no eye contact and no more high fives.

 

[Tuna99]

I find it really funny that for a so called "fan" of the Senators you take ever opportunity to bash them even when there is evidence that they might not be at fault. Strange.
Maybe you should read the thread on the main board where an obvious leaf fan and real life lawyer repeatedly defends the Senators and calls out Vegas and Anaheim.

don’t think people have done their duediligence on this one.

I also make 100s of contacts a week and deal with lawyers daily so I also know what I’m talking about. original documents bro, no “I saw this in the internet and cap geek had it”

If Capgeek worked for trades the NHL and the franchises would save about $400 million in legal fees.

This isn’t a huge deal to figure out - in a nutshell if central registry thought the trade was legal it’s because it didn’t have the original documentation, and that means Ottawa screwed up and don’t file it or files the list incorrectly it’s really that simple.

My guess is Dadonov NTC list were identical year over year so Ottawa didn’t update the new list by submitting it to central registry (even though Dadonov made and submitted it on time) and got confused by their own mistake - when central registry asked for the updated list Ottawa told them it was the one in the file (the one from 2021 and not 2022) so central registry assumed Daddy didn’t file his NTC In time and told Vegas his NTC was then invalid - I’m 100% sure this is what happened


Vegas was working off of info central registry gave them and why would they not question that (ie double check it on Capgeek, because a real life lawyer at the NHL told them their legal guidelines). It can’t really be anything else - the Sens did file the 2022 NTC they just did it wrong or the Sens intentially lied to Vegas - which the Sens wouldn’t do because lawyers don’t lie to lawyers about things like this because contracts are iron clad

 

[Gil Gunderson]

If the Blackhawks didn't have to forfeit draft picks for something much more serious, we certainly shouldn't for this.

Arizona got fined for much less, don’t worry about where the league’s priorities are.

 

[Micklebot]

don’t think people have done their duediligence on this one.

I also make 100s of contacts a week and deal with lawyers daily so I also know what I’m talking about. original documents bro, no “I saw this in the internet and cap geek had it”

If Capgeek worked for trades the NHL and the franchises would save about $400 million in legal fees.

This isn’t a huge deal to figure out - in a nutshell if central registry thought the trade was legal it’s because it didn’t have the original documentation, and that means Ottawa screwed up and don’t file it or files the list incorrectly it’s really that simple.

My guess is Dadonov NTC list were identical year over year so Ottawa didn’t update the new list by submitting it to central registry (even though Dadonov made and submitted it on time) and got confused by their own mistake - when central registry asked for the updated list Ottawa told them it was the one in the file (the one from 2021 and not 2022) so central registry assumed Daddy didn’t file his NTC In time and told Vegas his NTC was then invalid - I’m 100% sure this is what happened


Vegas was working off of info central registry gave them and why would they not question that (ie double check it on Capgeek, because a real life lawyer at the NHL told them their legal guidelines). It can’t really be anything else - the Sens did file the 2022 NTC they just did it wrong or the Sens intentially lied to Vegas - which the Sens wouldn’t do because lawyers don’t lie to lawyers about things like this because contracts are iron clad

Can't remember who it was but somebody in the know (Poulin?) confirmed that the updated lists are not sent to central registry each year, so while your theory makes sense in a world when the NHL is competent at overseeing and administering league contracts, that not the world we live in, and imo the root of the problem.

 

[Micklebot]

Arizona got fined for much less, don’t worry about where the league’s priorities are.

Arz lost their 1st testing dozens of prospects outside the rules in order to gain a competitive advantage,

I think they should have come down harder on Chicago, but their situation wasn't directly related to gaining a competitive advantage over other teams and impacting the integrity of competitive balance.

I think our scenario is closer to Arizona's than Chicago's, but it could be argued we impacted two teams, where as Arizona got an advantage over all 30 other teams.

I'd also be curious to hear if the NTC list not being submitted was integral to Vegas making the trade with us or if it was something where they realized after the trade that it was potentially voided.

 

[Silencio]

don’t think people have done their duediligence on this one.

I also make 100s of contacts a week and deal with lawyers daily so I also know what I’m talking about. original documents bro, no “I saw this in the internet and cap geek had it”

If Capgeek worked for trades the NHL and the franchises would save about $400 million in legal fees.

This isn’t a huge deal to figure out - in a nutshell if central registry thought the trade was legal it’s because it didn’t have the original documentation, and that means Ottawa screwed up and don’t file it or files the list incorrectly it’s really that simple.

My guess is Dadonov NTC list were identical year over year so Ottawa didn’t update the new list by submitting it to central registry (even though Dadonov made and submitted it on time) and got confused by their own mistake - when central registry asked for the updated list Ottawa told them it was the one in the file (the one from 2021 and not 2022) so central registry assumed Daddy didn’t file his NTC In time and told Vegas his NTC was then invalid - I’m 100% sure this is what happened


Vegas was working off of info central registry gave them and why would they not question that (ie double check it on Capgeek, because a real life lawyer at the NHL told them their legal guidelines). It can’t really be anything else - the Sens did file the 2022 NTC they just did it wrong or the Sens intentially lied to Vegas - which the Sens wouldn’t do because lawyers don’t lie to lawyers about things like this because contracts are iron clad

I thought the whole cause of this debacle was that there is no central registry of NTC lists, they are submitted to and held by the individual player's team.

 

[Tuna99]

I thought the whole cause of this debacle was that there is no central registry of NTC lists, they are submitted to and held by the individual player's team.

You may be right, if the paperwork is filed directly with a central data base doesn’t seem to be the case. But the transfer of information (Dadonov Undated 2022 NTC) was not done or was done incorrectly submitted by Ottawa.

How can Central Registary, Anaheim and Vegas all not know about the 2022 NTC if it wasn’t submitted properly by Ottawa?

 

[NorthCoast]

don’t think people have done their duediligence on this one.

I also make 100s of contacts a week and deal with lawyers daily so I also know what I’m talking about. original documents bro, no “I saw this in the internet and cap geek had it”

If Capgeek worked for trades the NHL and the franchises would save about $400 million in legal fees.

This isn’t a huge deal to figure out - in a nutshell if central registry thought the trade was legal it’s because it didn’t have the original documentation, and that means Ottawa screwed up and don’t file it or files the list incorrectly it’s really that simple.

My guess is Dadonov NTC list were identical year over year so Ottawa didn’t update the new list by submitting it to central registry (even though Dadonov made and submitted it on time) and got confused by their own mistake - when central registry asked for the updated list Ottawa told them it was the one in the file (the one from 2021 and not 2022) so central registry assumed Daddy didn’t file his NTC In time and told Vegas his NTC was then invalid - I’m 100% sure this is what happened


Vegas was working off of info central registry gave them and why would they not question that (ie double check it on Capgeek, because a real life lawyer at the NHL told them their legal guidelines). It can’t really be anything else - the Sens did file the 2022 NTC they just did it wrong or the Sens intentially lied to Vegas - which the Sens wouldn’t do because lawyers don’t lie to lawyers about things like this because contracts are iron clad

Pretty much.

I don't understand trying to say one party is to blame. Really nobody looks good on this one.

- Ottawa looks stupid for making a clerical error
- Vegas looks like a dic for trying to f over Dadonov because of Ottawa's typo.
- The league looks stupid because clearly there are obvious fixes to their system that would avoid all of this from ever happening in the first place.


Let's also keep in mind that this is not a court of law. There is no specific punishment for typo's or purposeful ignorance of typos. It's all at the whim of Bettman. As soon as the media moves on this is a nothing story and I bet nothing much comes of it. Minor fines or at most low level draft picks for both Ottawa and Vegas is my guess..

 

[Big Muddy]

Pretty much.

I don't understand trying to say one party is to blame. Really nobody looks good on this one.

- Ottawa looks stupid for making a clerical error
- Vegas looks like a dic for trying to f over Dadonov because of Ottawa's typo.
- The league looks stupid because clearly there are obvious fixes to their system that would avoid all of this from ever happening in the first place.


Let's also keep in mind that this is not a court of law. There is no specific punishment for typo's or purposeful ignorance of typos. It's all at the whim of Bettman. As soon as the media moves on this is a nothing story and I bet nothing much comes of it. Minor fines or at most low level draft picks for both Ottawa and Vegas is my guess..

Not sure about this idea that the problem was "typos".

League invalidates Golden Knights trade of Dadonov to Ducks

The trade between the Golden Knights and Anaheim Ducks that would have sent forward Evgenii Dadonov to Southern California has been reversed, the league announced today. The transaction could ...

lasvegassun.com

NHL cancels Evgenii Dadonov trade between Anaheim Ducks and Vegas Golden Knights

The deal violated his no-trade clause from 2020

www.cbssports.com

 

[BankStreetParade]

Pretty much.

I don't understand trying to say one party is to blame. Really nobody looks good on this one.

- Ottawa looks stupid for making a clerical error
- Vegas looks like a dic for trying to f over Dadonov because of Ottawa's typo.
- The league looks stupid because clearly there are obvious fixes to their system that would avoid all of this from ever happening in the first place.


Let's also keep in mind that this is not a court of law. There is no specific punishment for typo's or purposeful ignorance of typos. It's all at the whim of Bettman. As soon as the media moves on this is a nothing story and I bet nothing much comes of it. Minor fines or at most low level draft picks for both Ottawa and Vegas is my guess..

Despite the fact that less than a handful of players have ever missed the deadline to file their NTLs, therefore voiding their NTC, Vegas didn't think to double check and confirm that Dadonov didn't have an updated list? That's the part that baffles me. Mistakes can happen, some are bigger deals than others, but they can happen. But you, the buyer, don't want to confirm an especially important part of a player's contract? I'm having trouble imagining any scenario on the trade call where you don't ask a follow up question unless Ottawa specifically says "this player's NTC is void".

NHL: "Does the player have a NTC and does it include trade protection to Vegas?"
Ottawa: "That's not a problem here"
Vegas: "Ok great!" instead of "Great but is his NTC still active?"

Then, Ottawa presumably sends Dadonov's contract information including his NTL but it's the incorrect date. Again, no one in Vegas thinks "hmmmm, that's strange, we got last year's list. Can we email Ottawa to ask about the current list?"

Say no one notices the incorrect date and Vegas gets Dadonov's paperwork together for the Anaheim trade, no one looks at his outdated NTL and sees Anaheim on there and stops to say "hey guys, just noticed Evgeni's paperwork has an old NTL but it has Anaheim on it, can we find out what's going on here?"

Vegas had to miss a lot of red flags during the contract review to get to this point even if the initial mistake, a clerical error or otherwise, originated with Ottawa.

 

[slamigo]

Vegas had 8 months to review his SPC and NTC. Apparently, they made an assumption. Not sure how Ottawa is to blame here?

 

[Burrowsaurus]

here's the thing Ian the gf tell me ignore my emails too

The best joke in Sens fandom right now is definitely Dorions GF immediately knowing dorions move was shit and telling him to stay off Twitter

 

[BondraTime]

Vegas had 8 months to review his SPC and NTC. Apparently, they made an assumption. Not sure how Ottawa is to blame here?

The only way they are to blame, or share any of the blame, is if they filed incorrect documentation, and or said that the NTC was not filed correctly and thus void, one of which which seems to be the case the NHL and Vegas have made. We know that both the Knights and Vegas left the trade call with the understanding that Dadonov’s NTC was void. How they are making that claim and is anyones guess at this point.

Vegas absolutely should have called Dadonov’s agent in the 8 months, but that wouldn’t absolve the Sens of filing a void contract as evidence and or incorrectly stating a clause was void.

 

[DueDiligence]

Vegas had 8 months to review his SPC and NTC. Apparently, they made an assumption. Not sure how Ottawa is to blame here?

Exactly. it's not like Vegas has 10,000 contracts to go through each year. They might have at the most 6 new contracts to review from players outside the organization in any one year.

 

[SensontheRush]

Vegas absolutely should have called Dadonov’s agent in the 8 months, but that wouldn’t absolve the Sens of filing a void contract as evidence and or incorrectly stating a clause was void.

The thing is, is that it's being reported that they actually did that. They reached out to the guy that would have informed them that the NTC was not void.

We know that both the Knights and NHL left the trade call with the understanding that Dadonov’s NTC was void.

The only reason they would have left the trade call with the understanding that Dadonov's NTC was void was if Ottawa explicitly said so on that very call, or explained to the VGK why the NTC was void, which seems very unlikely.

I don't think VGK or the NHL "knew" the NTC was void at the time of the trade, but in reviewing the documentation, they found a clerical error which they used as "fact".

 

[BondraTime]

The thing is, is that it's being reported that they actually did that. They reached out to the guy that would have informed them that the NTC was not void.



The only reason they would have left the trade call with the understanding that Dadonov's NTC was void was if Ottawa explicitly said so on that very call, or explained to the VGK why the NTC was void, which seems very unlikely.

I don't think VGK or the NHL "knew" the NTC was void at the time of the trade, but in reviewing the documentation, they found a clerical error which they used as "fact".

If they reached out to the agent prior to the trade, that’s case closed and Ottawa would be fine, as Vegas would have knowingly violated a known NTC. That is the first I’m hearing of them reaching out to the agent though, and can’t seem to find it on a quick search.

Pretty sure the agent would just say that Vegas was in contact prior to the trade, and this whole thing would have been over in an hour if that was the case.

Well yeah, that’s why Ottawa could be in trouble. There are not many ways 2 separate parties could lead a trade call with that understanding, yet apparently that is the case in this situation.

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

Despite the fact that less than a handful of players have ever missed the deadline to file their NTLs, therefore voiding their NTC, Vegas didn't think to double check and confirm that Dadonov didn't have an updated list? That's the part that baffles me. Mistakes can happen, some are bigger deals than others, but they can happen. But you, the buyer, don't want to confirm an especially important part of a player's contract? I'm having trouble imagining any scenario on the trade call where you don't ask a follow up question unless Ottawa specifically says "this player's NTC is void".

NHL: "Does the player have a NTC and does it include trade protection to Vegas?"
Ottawa: "That's not a problem here"
Vegas: "Ok great!" instead of "Great but is his NTC still active?"

Then, Ottawa presumably sends Dadonov's contract information including his NTL but it's the incorrect date. Again, no one in Vegas thinks "hmmmm, that's strange, we got last year's list. Can we email Ottawa to ask about the current list?"

Say no one notices the incorrect date and Vegas gets Dadonov's paperwork together for the Anaheim trade, no one looks at his outdated NTL and sees Anaheim on there and stops to say "hey guys, just noticed Evgeni's paperwork has an old NTL but it has Anaheim on it, can we find out what's going on here?"

Vegas had to miss a lot of red flags during the contract review to get to this point even if the initial mistake, a clerical error or otherwise, originated with Ottawa.

I've made similar comments, it's all so far fetched that Vegas is trying to shrug off responsibility here and point the finger at a trade from 8 months ago. You would also have to think that the player's agent has a relationship with Vegas, given it's their actual job to advocate and look out for the interests of their client.

One thing is for sure, there needs to be a confidential process to have the NTC on record somewhere.

My concern is that the NHL has egg on their face, Ottawa is an easy scapegoat.

 

[Golden_Jet]

don’t think people have done their duediligence on this one.

I also make 100s of contacts a week and deal with lawyers daily so I also know what I’m talking about. original documents bro, no “I saw this in the internet and cap geek had it”

If Capgeek worked for trades the NHL and the franchises would save about $400 million in legal fees.

This isn’t a huge deal to figure out - in a nutshell if central registry thought the trade was legal it’s because it didn’t have the original documentation, and that means Ottawa screwed up and don’t file it or files the list incorrectly it’s really that simple.

My guess is Dadonov NTC list were identical year over year so Ottawa didn’t update the new list by submitting it to central registry (even though Dadonov made and submitted it on time) and got confused by their own mistake - when central registry asked for the updated list Ottawa told them it was the one in the file (the one from 2021 and not 2022) so central registry assumed Daddy didn’t file his NTC In time and told Vegas his NTC was then invalid - I’m 100% sure this is what happened


Vegas was working off of info central registry gave them and why would they not question that (ie double check it on Capgeek, because a real life lawyer at the NHL told them their legal guidelines). It can’t really be anything else - the Sens did file the 2022 NTC they just did it wrong or the Sens intentially lied to Vegas - which the Sens wouldn’t do because lawyers don’t lie to lawyers about things like this because contracts are iron clad

Lebrun said yesterday, the NHL and PA don't get access to NTCs , and they are not registered with central registry.
NHL protocol is the problem here.

 

[Masked]

Lebrun said yesterday, the NHL and PA don't get access to NTCs , and they are not registered with central registry.
NHL protocol is the problem here.

Absolutely. This is an archaic way to deal with information. The league should have a central database for things like this. It's not hard to implement and ensure that only the required parties have access to the information.

Assen na yo!

 

[slamigo]

So the assumption is that Ottawa gave VGK the 2021 NTC list? And nobody at VGK asked "What about this year's list?" They just assumed it was never filed and never asked Ottawa, the agent or the player if it was?

 

[SensontheRush]

If they reached out to the agent prior to the trade, that’s case closed and Ottawa would be fine, as Vegas would have knowingly violated a known NTC. That is the first I’m hearing of them reaching out to the agent though, and can’t seem to find it on a quick search.

Pretty sure the agent would just say that Vegas was in contact prior to the trade, and this whole thing would have been over in an hour if that was the case.

Well yeah, that’s why Ottawa could be in trouble. There are not many ways 2 separate parties could lead a trade call with that understanding, yet apparently that is the case in this situation.

"According to Friedman on the podcast, Vegas did reach out to the player’s agent about trading him to Anaheim. The agent told the team Dadonov had trade protection preventing him from going to Anaheim, and Vegas said that they, “in conjunction with the NHL believe that it was voided.”"

I think its pretty clear that the state of the NTC was not "settled science" at the time of the trade call either, regardless of how much VGK bitches.

Note the "in conjuction with the NHL:"; this isn't Ottawa reaffirming that it was voided.

 

[branch]

Does Dorion have the self awareness to know that the vast majority of the fanbase thinks he's terrible and wants him gone?

No