Ellis contract and Jake Gardiner

[Nylanderthal]

Wouldn't have expected a response with anything useful. Use information before you post.

Yes, his 1.25 salary in relation to his 6.25 cap hit make him way more tradable. How do you not get that? Everyone is aware he has a Nmc. Also, he came here cause we offered more years and money than anyone else, with 17.5m of that money paid out after two seasons of play. As far as reports go no one was offering more than one year. What people like yourself refuse to see is that the deal is clearly structured in such a way that he’s easily movable year theee should the need arise. It’s also tailored to spread out the cap hit over three years instead of two with what’s assumed a dead third year.if you think shanny/Dubas/Lou make this signing last summer without having an escape route you clearly have not been paying attention to how this organization is ran these days.
If he’s still quality and his contract doesn’t hinder our ability to ice a full team he COULD stay, but if he’s lost a step or his cap hit is in the way of doing what we need to do for the betterment of the future of the team then you better believe he’s gone. Nmc or not guys don’t stay in places they’re not wanted.
You’re literally sticking your head in the sand and going “lalalalalalalalalalalala” to basic math. He’s paid out over 90% of his money after the second season. I’m willing to put real money on him not being in Toronto for the 19-20 season.
Why is it guys like Weber and hossa are a given to not complete their deals when they’re paid a relative pittance, but Paddy’s gonna play til he’s 45. Right.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

Yes a few. Every offensive dmen make mistakes. He has great advanced stats and he puts up points. Fast and he is a great passer. He can improve his mental mistakes. You can't teach speed and nailing stretch passes. We can resign Gardiner for 5.5-6 per season and we should.

BEEN SAYING THIS FOR 5 YEARS. It will never happen. Hes scared to get hit too.

 

[rent free]

Yes, his 1.25 salary in relation to his 6.25 cap hit make him way more tradable. How do you not get that? Everyone is aware he has a Nmc. Also, he came here cause we offered more years and money than anyone else, with 17.5m of that money paid out after two seasons of play. As far as reports go no one was offering more than one year. What people like yourself refuse to see is that the deal is clearly structured in such a way that he’s easily movable year theee should the need arise. It’s also tailored to spread out the cap hit over three years instead of two with what’s assumed a dead third year.if you think shanny/Dubas/Lou make this signing last summer without having an escape route you clearly have not been paying attention to how this organization is ran these days.
If he’s still quality and his contract doesn’t hinder our ability to ice a full team he COULD stay, but if he’s lost a step or his cap hit is in the way of doing what we need to do for the betterment of the future of the team then you better believe he’s gone. Nmc or not guys don’t stay in places they're not wanted.
You’re literally sticking your head in the sand and going “lalalalalalalalalalalala” to basic math. He’s paid out over 90% of his money after the second season. I’m willing to put real money on him not being in Toronto for the 19-20 season.
Why is it guys like Weber and hossa are a given to not complete their deals when they’re paid a relative pittance, but Paddy’s gonna play til he’s 45. Right.

His salary being much lower than his cap hit holds no relevance in this situation whatsoever because he has a nmc. The thing you aren't taking in is that it doesn't matter that signing bonuses pay most of his deal. The leafs gave him signing bonuses because he wanted the money upfront. They can afford to do that. Tavares has a signing bonus every season throughout his deal, yet he isn't going to get moved. You mentioned that he has a nmc but you seem to fathom how that works. You have neglected to recognize it's importance for whatever reason(s) Marleau is the one that makes the decision on where he plays. He signed a 3 year deal with an nmc in all those years. If he was only going to play for 2 seasons, he wouldn't be a maple leaf. He would have re-signed with the sharks. There have been plenty of players to sign front loaded deals and not have been moved. As far as anyone knows, Weber hasn't said he isn't going to complete his deal, even though the opposite is what's most likely going to occur. In hossa's case, he had a legitimate skin condition that caused him to miss those last 4 seasons. Marleau's deal is different from those deals as well. His deal isn't a long term retirement deal where he gets almost all of the money in the first many seasons and almost none after. He's getting nearly 25 percent of it in the last season. Your statement "Nmc or not guys don’t stay in places they're not wanted" is absolutely ridiculous. You have no idea that marleau won't be wanted in 2019. If that was the case, they wouldn't have given him the nmc for that season. Your statement is only valid if there is a situation where management and the player have serious issues and as far as it stands, there is no feud or external factors between management and Marleau that would cause a situation where both parties want to go in different directions and there doesn't look to be so in the near future. Another thing, it's quite ironic that you say I'm "literally sticking your head in the sand and going “lalalalalalalalalalalala” to basic math" when you are the one that got the math part wrong. As I've previously stated, hes getting nearly 25 percent of his salary in his final season, not 10 percent. Marleau will be 40 when his contract ends. He won't be 45. I don't know why you would lie about that or exaggerate something like that. Marleau hasn't missed a game in a 9 seasons and doesn't have any lingering issues or other factors that work against him. He wants to win a cup and wants to play for Babcock and the leafs give him that opportunity for the rest of his deal.

Barring a permanent injury, he is playing that final season with the leafs.

 

[Battle Lin]

we'll have to move horton's contract and jake gotta give us a lil pay cut, to even get the convo started, we'll be tight roping around the cap adding gardiner at 6+ years 6+ mill

 

[Stephen]

The thing is Gardiner already makes $4 million or so, so if you extend him at around $6 million you don't actually need to find that much more room to do it.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

We may be able to get him locked up for 5.5ish

 

[Battle Lin]

problem is we're about to add a 6ish mill contract soon, a 7ish mill one and then a 10ish mill contract...and imo kapanen, johnsson, dermott, and liljegren are gonna get good fast, can even get great, and gonna need some money soon...we dont have that many 6 millions to throw around, especially committed for at least 6 years

 

[MagicalRazor]

Ellis is head and shoulders better than jake Gardiner , i don't see how his contract starts a base for jake. I don't want Jake at all i'm done with him and his JR A hockey mistakes. I hope he walks as a UFA or we trade him this year . He's worth 4 M at most for every 1 point he puts up he lets in 2

 

[Voodoo Child]

People be going off but I don't think the Ellis deal is a good deal at all.

6.25 on maximum term for a guy who, aside from this injury shortened year, is a 35 point guy, plays the 3rd most PK minutes and is their fourth best D?

Is it because he shoots right and PKs, because that's maybe worth an extra mil five per year. He's worth max 5.5, or this money on a six year term.

Jake defends like a bantam league player at times and doesn't even PK but at least he puts up points. He is worth 6 but I wouldn't go above that, and I think he'll get offers for 6.5+ on the market.

 

[ACC1224]

Marleaus cap hit is 5m more than the salary owed to him for the season, he’s easy to move.

NMC

 

[Nylanderthal]

NMC

So what? That’s never stopped a team before. Pretty much every other player who’s deal tapers off like marleaus does also had one and they have never handcuffed their teams. Guys go or ltir or get moved to cap floor teams and retire. The Nmc is in place to protect the player during the season as I’m sure he doesn’t want to uproot his faily mid season. If he has to go to make room, he’ll be gone.

His salary being much lower than his cap hit holds no relevance in this situation whatsoever because he has a nmc. The thing you aren't taking in is that it doesn't matter that signing bonuses pay most of his deal. The leafs gave him signing bonuses because he wanted the money upfront. They can afford to do that. Tavares has a signing bonus every season throughout his deal, yet he isn't going to get moved. You mentioned that he has a nmc but you seem to fathom how that works. You have neglected to recognize it's importance for whatever reason(s) Marleau is the one that makes the decision on where he plays. He signed a 3 year deal with an nmc in all those years. If he was only going to play for 2 seasons, he wouldn't be a maple leaf. He would have re-signed with the sharks. There have been plenty of players to sign front loaded deals and not have been moved. As far as anyone knows, Weber hasn't said he isn't going to complete his deal, even though the opposite is what's most likely going to occur. In hossa's case, he had a legitimate skin condition that caused him to miss those last 4 seasons. Marleau's deal is different from those deals as well. His deal isn't a long term retirement deal where he gets almost all of the money in the first many seasons and almost none after. He's getting nearly 25 percent of it in the last season. Your statement "Nmc or not guys don’t stay in places they're not wanted" is absolutely ridiculous. You have no idea that marleau won't be wanted in 2019. If that was the case, they wouldn't have given him the nmc for that season. Your statement is only valid if there is a situation where management and the player have serious issues and as far as it stands, there is no feud or external factors between management and Marleau that would cause a situation where both parties want to go in different directions and there doesn't look to be so in the near future. Another thing, it's quite ironic that you say I'm "literally sticking your head in the sand and going “lalalalalalalalalalalala” to basic math" when you are the one that got the math part wrong. As I've previously stated, hes getting nearly 25 percent of his salary in his final season, not 10 percent. Marleau will be 40 when his contract ends. He won't be 45. I don't know why you would lie about that or exaggerate something like that. Marleau hasn't missed a game in a 9 seasons and doesn't have any lingering issues or other factors that work against him. He wants to win a cup and wants to play for Babcock and the leafs give him that opportunity for the rest of his deal.

Barring a permanent injury, he is playing that final season with the leafs.

San Jose only offered him one year and not 8+m so no, if he was only playing two more years he wouldn’t automatically go back to San Jose. Toronto offered the most money and the longest term. Everyone was offering one year, marleau was speculated to of wanted 2 years minimum and they gave him 3 to spread out the cap hit. We have people who wrote the cba doing our contracts, you don’t think they thought this through? Yes, he does get a significant amount of his money in the first two thirds of the deal. Before he has to even think about off season training he’ll only be owed 1.25 of 18.75m total (Which is less than 10%) Twist it however you want because yes, technically July 1 2019 is the beginning of the 19-20 season, but it’s not when discussing situations like this, so stop. If next summer marleau needs to go to make room he’ll be gone. Just like how martin was bonus money paid out in a front loaded situation. Also you’re being obtuse for no reason when bringing up Tavares, of course no one is saying trade him, but guess what? In year 5-7 if he falls off a cliff he’ll be much more movable with the chunk of his money already paid out.

 

[ACC1224]

So what? That’s never stopped a team before. Pretty much every other player who’s deal tapers off like marleaus does also had one and they have never handcuffed their teams. Guys go or ltir or get moved to cap floor teams and retire. The Nmc is in place to protect the player during the season as I’m sure he doesn’t want to uproot his faily mid season. If he has to go to make room, he’ll be gone.

San Jose only offered him one year and not 8+m so no, if he was only playing two more years he wouldn’t automatically go back to San Jose. Toronto offered the most money and the longest term. Everyone was offering one year, marleau was speculated to of wanted 2 years minimum and they gave him 3 to spread out the cap hit. We have people who wrote the cba doing our contracts, you don’t think they thought this through? Yes, he does get a significant amount of his money in the first two thirds of the deal. Before he has to even think about off season training he’ll only be owed 1.25 of 18.75m total (Which is less than 10%) Twist it however you want because yes, technically July 1 2019 is the beginning of the 19-20 season, but it’s not when discussing situations like this, so stop. If next summer marleau needs to go to make room he’ll be gone. Just like how martin was bonus money paid out in a front loaded situation. Also you’re being obtuse for no reason when bringing up Tavares, of course no one is saying trade him, but guess what? In year 5-7 if he falls off a cliff he’ll be much more movable with the chunk of his money already paid out.

Some players waive, others decline to waive, it's up to the player, not you or the Team. Marleau would have no incentive to waive.
Any examples of a player in his situation (moving cross country after 20 years to chase a cup) willing to leave before winning?

 

[ShaneFalco]

What if we want to keep him for a cup run but replace him with Dermott moving forward. What would you do?

How did it work out keeping JVR for a "cup run"

They can't let a 30 goal scorer and a top 3 d-man walk in 2 years......among others

 

[IBeL34f]

What the “Jake Gardiner has good stats” crowd doesn’t admit is that when Gardiner wets the bed and costs the team a goal or a game it shows up as just one data point in their fancy algorithm. The guy is prone to costing the team in key monents on the regular and I know a lot of fans are sick of it. He can put up all the points in the world but if he’s costing you games what the hell is the point. His time is up, trade him ASAP. Leafs have a home grown replacement that’s team controlled on an elc anyway it just makes too much sense.

What are you talking about? Every single thing Gardiner does is just one data point on the algorithm, whether it's good or bad - The reason why people bring up the stats is because all of those individual data points put together show that he has a very positive impact on the game for his team when he's on the ice.

we'll have to move horton's contract and jake gotta give us a lil pay cut, to even get the convo started, we'll be tight roping around the cap adding gardiner at 6+ years 6+ mill

Horton can be placed on LTIR next year, just not this year.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What are you talking about? Every single thing Gardiner does is just one data point on the algorithm, whether it's good or bad - The reason why people bring up the stats is because all of those individual data points put together show that he has a very positive impact on the game for his team when he's on the ice.

Horton can be placed on LTIR next year, just not this year.

So, you prefer logic over emotion. I guess there's no point discussing Gardiner with you if that's the case.

 

[IBeL34f]

So what? That’s never stopped a team before. Pretty much every other player who’s deal tapers off like marleaus does also had one and they have never handcuffed their teams. Guys go or ltir or get moved to cap floor teams and retire. The Nmc is in place to protect the player during the season as I’m sure he doesn’t want to uproot his faily mid season. If he has to go to make room, he’ll be gone.

Really? It's never stopped a team before? What was all that stuff about 'The Muskoka 5' all those years ago?

The NMC is in place to protect the player throughout the course of their contract from any type of undesired movement. What you are saying about 'during the season' is in no way a fact, and would be a wild assumption for anyone to pluck out of thin air.

 

[Gary Nylund]

problem is we're about to add a 6ish mill contract soon, a 7ish mill one and then a 10ish mill contract...and imo kapanen, johnsson, dermott, and liljegren are gonna get good fast, can even get great, and gonna need some money soon...we dont have that many 6 millions to throw around, especially committed for at least 6 years

Not a problem at all. Gardiner signed at a fair price is a valuable and tradable commodity. Sign him for 6 years, then trade him after 2-3 years if and when Liljegren has established himself.

 

[A1LeafNation]

How did it work out keeping JVR for a "cup run"

They can't let a 30 goal scorer and a top 3 d-man walk in 2 years......among others

We finished 105 points, and got playoff experience including game 7.

Also got to replace JVR with Tavares.

 

[bluumax]

I dont see the Gardiner situation as the same as the JVR situation. That could change but i dont think it will. JVR positioned himself for a massive raise that priced him out of TO.

I would offer him 5-5.5M on a 5 year deal. Thats a fair price, he isnt coming off a career year and we arent coming off a long run of team success.

Good teams wont be lining up to sign him. If he wants to stay on a Kadri-like contract then great, enjoy being part of the team success but you will (hopefully) be passed on the depth chart therefore the contract should reflect that.

If not, explore trading him. Simple as, he's not part of the core so whether it's now or at the deadline, provided you can fetch a reasonable value (Ill always support a GM for not trading low just because the offers weren't there.).

 

[Trapper]

How did it work out keeping JVR for a "cup run"

They can't let a 30 goal scorer and a top 3 d-man walk in 2 years......among others

Least of all a top 3 D.
I can get over the winger (even though I wasn’t happy), but back to back years and D at a premium is just bad business.
It would be like letting Kadri walk.

 

[Leafsman]

What are you talking about? Every single thing Gardiner does is just one data point on the algorithm, whether it's good or bad - The reason why people bring up the stats is because all of those individual data points put together show that he has a very positive impact on the game for his team when he's on the ice.

Horton can be placed on LTIR next year, just not this year.

My problem with Gardiner is that he is awesome all the times when it doesn't matter and underwhelming all the times it does matter.

There are just a lot more non-critical moments than critical moments which is why Gardiner displays as a positive impact.

 

[IBeL34f]

My problem with Gardiner is that he is awesome all the times when it doesn't matter and underwhelming all the times it does matter.

There are just a lot more non-critical moments than critical moments which is why Gardiner displays as a positive impact.

I'm fully aware that my memory isn't exactly what it used to be, but wasn't he one of our best defensemen in the Playoffs in 2013 (Boston) and 2017 (Washington)?

 

[LeafFever]

Ellis is head and shoulders better than jake Gardiner , i don't see how his contract starts a base for jake. I don't want Jake at all i'm done with him and his JR A hockey mistakes. I hope he walks as a UFA or we trade him this year . He's worth 4 M at most for every 1 point he puts up he lets in 2

He has all the stats to be worth much more than that.

 

[Gallagbi]

Horton can be placed on LTIR next year, just not this year.

Why not this year?

 

[Gallagbi]

My problem with Gardiner is that he is awesome all the times when it doesn't matter and underwhelming all the times it does matter.

There are just a lot more non-critical moments than critical moments which is why Gardiner displays as a positive impact.

He's been one of our better D in every playoffs he's had. Don't let a bad game 7 wipe out his strong performances in other must-win games. He was our best D in the first B's series and he/Rielly were great last year. Even this year he and Rielly were our best D throughout the series.