Ellis contract and Jake Gardiner

[ULF_55]

Understandably, Gardiner is going to get a good, long term contract.

My hope is the Leafs have had some success at the draft, along with competent scouting the past few years and players like Borgman, Rosen, Ozhiganov are competent defenders, and Liljegren one time consensus top 5 pick, can play NHL level defense.

Gardiner is as good as he is bad.

All defenders make mistakes, including Gardiner, Rielly, Dermott, ... but not every mistake is equal.

Hopefully Gardiner is signed to a movable contract, that doesn't require retention, and his NTC is not an impedance when he's superfluous.

Often hear someone suggesting a LHD, even Dermott who has almost zero NHL experience, being moved to the RHD. Hainsey plays his off wing, and was fine, if overused, but he has years of experience. I just don't know if the Leafs have smart enough defenders to move opposite side of their natural tendencies.

There just aren't as many RHD as there are LHD in the league, so perhaps making do with LHD playing RHD is just something we have to live with.

So yes, perhaps if Zaitsev, Liljegren and Ozhiganov cannot handle the job, one of Dermott or Rosen will be forced into that position.

Gardiner, is at least temporarily, a necessary piece of the puzzle, he is afterall and top 4 defender who can produce points, and he'll always provide both detractors and supporters with ample ammunition when it comes to the keep or move debate.

Gardiner is like a box of chocolates.

 

[Buds17]

Nashville re-signing Ellis allows them to keep their top four D intact, with two LHD and two RHD. The Leafs re-signing Gardiner means the Leafs would either go with a balanced pairs approach, with strength on the left side (as Dermott should become more than a third pairing D in the not too distant future) or a lefty (Rielly or Dermott) is moving to their off-side. Either could happen, but there's no certainty there, for differing reasons. Could also eventually trade a re-signed Gardiner if needed, if the new contract allows for that easily enough.

 

[nuck]

Jake is such a talented player with an incredible ability to make plays rivalled only by his ability to make the fans’ collective heads explode.

It will be fascinating to see what the the mgmt does with him this year. I believe the forwards are better defensively this year, but I wonder if Jake fits in the plan going forward.

I do think the market will give him Ellis money.

His biggest nemesis is the addiction to the stretch pass which has not been kind to him. I think that is correctable, but short of playing him or Reilly on their off wing they are out of balance. They are so left side biased that putting more money there long term seems a losing proposition. I think they can add a lesser natural RD who would be more effective than a converted lefty, and who you wouldn't have to pay 50pt money to. The only worry is that KD won't want to disrupt the team by moving out a core D man without a comparable talent coming back. Their D is too soft and won't be cap friendly with a big Gardiner deal and I don't think he signs a team friendly deal without a NM. Jake long term is not a fit, and definitely not for Ellis money.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

His biggest nemesis is the addiction to the stretch pass which has not been kind to him. I think that is correctable, but short of playing him or Reilly on their off wing they are out of balance. They are so left side biased that putting more money there long term seems a losing proposition. I think they can add a lesser natural RD who would be more effective than a converted lefty, and who you wouldn't have to pay 50pt money to. The only worry is that KD won't want to disrupt the team by moving out a core D man without a comparable talent coming back. Their D is too soft and won't be cap friendly with a big Gardiner deal and I don't think he signs a team friendly deal without a NM. Jake long term is not a fit, and definitely not for Ellis money.

Well said.

 

[IBeL34f]

His biggest nemesis is the addiction to the stretch pass which has not been kind to him. I think that is correctable, but short of playing him or Reilly on their off wing they are out of balance. They are so left side biased that putting more money there long term seems a losing proposition. I think they can add a lesser natural RD who would be more effective than a converted lefty, and who you wouldn't have to pay 50pt money to. The only worry is that KD won't want to disrupt the team by moving out a core D man without a comparable talent coming back. Their D is too soft and won't be cap friendly with a big Gardiner deal and I don't think he signs a team friendly deal without a NM. Jake long term is not a fit, and definitely not for Ellis money.

Is there any reason why they couldn't trade him part-way through his contract once a better option for balancing out our defensive talent comes along? Sure, you mentioned a NMC, but we have no idea what kind of terms would be in place there, when it would kick in, how many teams he's protected from, all that good stuff. He's a very talented defenseman, and as long as his deal isn't a huge overpayment (in which case we wouldn't have signed it in the first place) he should 100% be a movable player over the next 3-4 years.

I'm all for trying to get a guy like Spurgeon out of him, but if that's not available, it makes less sense for us to downgrade our talent than it does to simply slide Rielly to his off-side for a little while.

Eventually, you hope that Rielly, Dermott, Liljegren and Zaitsev make up a solid enough top-4 that you don't have to worry about replacing a guy like Gardiner, but we really aren't there yet, and with the concerns (some) people already have regarding our blueline, any move that takes away from the talent we do have there seems like it would be quite unwise.

It'll be interesting to see how it all unfolds, regardless. Should be lots of options for Dubas and co.

 

[Funk21]

He likely get Ellis type money which is why I want no part of him on the TML. If we had a 6"6 Stay at home offensive black hole RHD making 2-3 Million to bail him out I would be happy to sign him but due to the fact we just to have any complimentary pieces makes him expendable.

Personally I would have hoped we would be able to trade him this offseason plus picks/prospects (not D) to get a RHD.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Dermott will supplant him on the second pair at some point. If it's before the TDL, trade him, if not, let him walk.

6+ AAV long-term for Gardiner isn't a good investment. That money needs to be put towards Matthews, Marner, RHD.

 

[81Leafs50]

Trade the second best defenseman with no viable replacement.

Gardiner is mentally weak. All he did was refer to Boston and the collapse. then he collapsed in game 7. He will not be a Leaf next season.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I guess the big question is, can they afford Gardiner and upgrade the D?

 

[rent free]

I guess the big question is, can they afford Gardiner and upgrade the D?

no, they can't.

 

[LeafFever]

I guess the big question is, can they afford Gardiner and upgrade the D?

Probably not imo. Best scenario is move Gardiner and trade for a D with a different skillset. There's some help on the Marlies coming in a year.

 

[GoldenGOOSE]

Gardiner is a fantastic talent. But the cap is the cap. If we have to give up on a talent like this, makes me hate the cap even more.

Funny thing is this. We were okay at times in the non cap world. If we had hired a Shanahan type in the non cap world, we would have dominated the NHL.

Cap arrives and all of a sudden the Leafs get smart. Bizarre. SO much prior incompetence.

 

[LeafFever]

Gardiner is a fantastic talent. But the cap is the cap. If we have to give up on a talent like this, makes me hate the cap even more.

Funny thing is this. We were okay at times in the non cap world. If we had hired a Shanahan type in the non cap world, we would have dominated the NHL.

Cap arrives and all of a sudden the Leafs get smart. Bizarre. SO much prior incompetence.

Well after about a decade. They may have been the dumbest organization coming out of the lockout initially.
I don't mind a cap of some point, but a "Hard Cap" sucks. At least do something like in the NBA where you can go over and be penalized.

It really sucks the Leafs can't go over but a team like Arizona can not even pay anything close to the cap floor in actual money. They keep adding retired and LTIR players to reach the cap floor(Where they are not paying them actual money).

 

[LeafGrief]

Saw this posted in another thread. Two fantastic plays by Gardiner that led directly to goals. An excellent read to hold the line on the first goal and possibly the best pass a Leaf made last season for the second. Both of those are prime examples of what we want in our defencemen. I don't know if we'll be able to keep him with the cap, but we don't have a player on the blueline who can pass like he does and if we lose him it will be sorely missed.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

My feeling is coach Babcock is a defensive coach by nature and isn't willing to stomach the worry of Gardiner's lapses for his offensive upside.


For the right price Gardiner can be retained. I doubt that happens. The Leafs are going to massively hard ball him.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I don't mind a cap of some point, but a "Hard Cap" sucks. At least do something like in the NBA where you can go over and be penalized.

Bettman's goal is growing the game in America. Poor borderline teams in the US benefit from the hard cap. it's not changing

 

[hotpaws]

For the right price Gardiner can be retained. I doubt that happens. The Leafs are going to massively hard ball him.

Then he'll walk as a ufa after this season.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Then he'll walk as a ufa after this season.

Spending money away from areas of weaknesss is not wise anyway.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Dubas isn't dumb
Can't wait til he is traded
Peace gards

 

[hector morrison]

Is Gards worth Ellis money? Can the Leafs afford that without making the team worse? If yes,then Dubas will sign him because there is no one in the system that can do what he can. Better get on it too cause he has the potential to rack up the points on this team,just look at the guys he is passing to!
If no,then let trade him for best return or let him walk...the money you aren't paying him will help aquire someone else!

 

[BigBlu]

Gards is a very good Dman. Until that last playoff game, more often than not, he would outplay Morgs in the playoffs. Leafs have leaned heavily on Gardiner in the games that matter most.

 

[A1LeafNation]

I don't see how we sign Gardiner and develop Dermott into a top 4. We are building our team around the forwards so we should focus on cap savings with the dcore.

In 2019-20 we will have a 20m dcore hopefully.

Rielly Zaitsev
Dermott _______
Borgman Liljegren
Rosen Holl/Carrick/Ozhiganov

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Saw this posted in another thread. Two fantastic plays by Gardiner that led directly to goals. An excellent read to hold the line on the first goal and possibly the best pass a Leaf made last season for the second. Both of those are prime examples of what we want in our defencemen. I don't know if we'll be able to keep him with the cap, but we don't have a player on the blueline who can pass like he does and if we lose him it will be sorely missed.

I love how the Anaheim commentators praise Gardiner properly on both goals but Toronto commentators don't. Toronto doesn't appreciate him enough.

Also, did you catch the commentator calling Willy his father's name, Micheal Nylander

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

It sure doesn't look Leafs have the cap space to sign Gardiner, especially if he has a good season. UFAs arrive and depart all the time. If the Leafs go expensive with their forwards, Leaf are going to have to depend on Reilly, Dermot, and maybe a Borgman/Rosen combo at LHD. So be it. I just don't see Gardiner getting any better than he is now. If true should the Leafs be paying UFA premium for him, Doubtful.

 

[luvdahattymatty]

Folks outside of Pittsburgh for one lucky season no one has had a defence of run and gunners to a Cup win. remember that fact. as you analytics guys say that is a statistical outlier. what we need is a couple niskanins and orpiks. very very difficult to win Cups with 3 john carlsons. we need dependable defense first thinkers who dont make brutal errors and can protect the net and can work the boards. just do the simple plays - box out your man from the net, eat the puck on the boards when no exit, take the man or the puck at the blue line on the pinch, make sure no one is behind you, cover your partner when he takes a risk, high and hard on glass when no other option, knock someone on their *ss when bothering your goalie, take a penalty on a guy when you need to send a message, force the outside shot, there are so many little details that a great defensive dman does which most fans just have no clue. Who cares if it does show up in the game sheet. It shows up in team wins and Cups. Goals and assists are not the best measure of a great defenseman.