Ellis contract and Jake Gardiner

Status
Not open for further replies.

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
16,102
11,295
Hainsey was run into the ground last season and his game went off a cliff after February.

I too hope that Zaitsev can rebound, but my expectations are currently low.

Babcock clearly has issues trusting Carrick and Holl has 2 NHL games to his name (and I'm a Holl fan).

The Bruins were able to expose our D on two fronts last year: through physicality against our softer dmen and by attacking the right side. This will continue to be a deficiency if we only tinker with changes.
I don't feel like the zone entries were a huge problem except for Gardiner's 2 or 3 faux pas. It was the exits that were brutal. Hainsey Polak and Zaitsev did not help in this department
 

luvdahattymatty

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
511
405
Gramps here. I have stated this before but when i watch all the little details of Gards defensive play as a former dman myself I can see he was never trained in playing defence. At least not the way Canadians are trained in minor hockey junior and minor pro as dmen. I do feel bad for him as he seems to always fall back to his gut instincts as a centre. At this point in his career with 8 years dmen training he still does not get it. You really have to believe he never will. At some point you just have to cut bait. So sad really because he does have a lot of skilled tools in the drawer.
 

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
I still don't understand how we afford him. What are your salary assumptions for the Big 3, Johnsson, Kapanen and Gardiner? And where do you see the cap in 19-20?
I got $82.6755M for my 2019/20 roster - Matthews (10), Marner (7), Nylander (6.5), Johnsson (1.5 - 1 year), Kapanen (2 - 1 year), Gardiner (6)

(Basically, a ~$3M cap increase (not at all out of the realm of possibility, as far as I'm aware) means we're totally cool. Anything less and you might lose a guy like Brown, but I take that hit if it's between him and Gardiner. A couple of the figures I had could end up higher, but some of them could just as easily end up lower. I'll believe that all of our RFAs will command the height of their range of comparables when I actually see it.)

All this being said, I am open to the idea of trading Gardiner for a cheaper RHD option if something like that comes up and makes sense. He's way better than given credit for here, though, and should definitely be retained before he's allowed to walk away for free.
 

A1LeafNation

Good, is simply not good enough!
Oct 17, 2010
27,504
17,524
It's imperative they either re-sign him or trade him. None of this walking at the end of the year business
What if we want to keep him for a cup run but replace him with Dermott moving forward. What would you do?
 

HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
11,656
2,243
1. You can certainly figure out the range of possibilities. Maybe you prefer those words (underlined) rather than "figured out"?

2. Not sure what people you are referring to, but does it really matter? Some people just like to know the future situation, and what might happen, or what could be expected. I don't see any real harm or travesty in any of that. I think we are just discussing hockey, that's all.

1. Sure - That's a pretty damn broad range, though (We have no way of knowing for sure where the cap will sit - likely somewhere between $79.5-84.5M, which makes a world of difference to the conversation; Nylander/Matthews/Marner contract terms play a huge role, obviously - are they making a combined $22M or $25M? - as would Gardiner's; We have no idea what trades/signings might happen in the meantime, or which kids are going to step up big this year - Will Johnsson and Kapanen turn themselves into multi-million dollar players? Is Liljegren ahead of his expected curve?) so the best thing to do - in my opinion, at least - is to keep a very open mind.

2. No, it doesn't really matter, but it's killin' my buzz, man. I'm glad you're unfamiliar with the kinds of people I'm talking about - I like your optimism (that's not sarcasm, I really mean it) but if they were just looking for answers, then they'd be asking questions. They are not.

1. I think we have concluded that we agree that there is a range of possibilities. One possibility is we will have a problem with cap in 19-20. The other possibility is that we won't. I think saying "range of possibilities" accurately describes and portrays the situation which I believe you have also confirmed.

2. I don't worry that much about what people say. I try to use facts (math, science, known truisms, etc.) and tend to, or try to gravitate to sources that actually have such info. That could be partially because of my personality, my profession, etc. And, by no means am I saying that I'm perfect and don't make mistakes. But, I don't get particularly concerned with subjective opinions that are not based on facts or a solid base. A pig is still a pig no matter how much lipstick you put on it. The other thing is when you (*) point your (* not literally you, just speaking figuratively), there are three fingers pointing back at you. So, all fanbases engage in the kind of behavior that seems to be ticking you off.

The other point that has got lost in the shuffle here is that lots of folks have dismissed the idea that there is simply no potential cap issues whatsoever, in a blanket statement type of way. Maybe that's something that happened more in the Trade and Rumours section where there are tons of silly arguments. While it seemed a little implausible, I was willing to give the nod to what appeared to be a consensus opinion. Now, we seem to be acknowledging something different. At the least, that's kind of confusing.
 

Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
19,546
15,414
London, ON
Problem is Carrick has recieved some of the highest levels of sheltering last year in the entire league from what i have seen (both zone usage and QoC) so I wouldn't be hopefully that pairing could keep their head above water in top 4 usage.

Carrick started almost 60% of his shifts in the offensive zone while the 2nd pairing spent on average like 47% in the offensive while also playing with the Matthews line all the time. Would not be close to comfortable with Dermott and Carrick taking over that assignment.

Dermott and Zaitsev I think would be a fine 2nd pairing though.

Dermott was one of the most sheltered defenseman in the NHL last season.
 

57 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
Nov 12, 2007
8,151
7,282
Package Gardiner with a 1st and Kapanen/Brown/Johnsson for the best RHD you can get. We have enough offense overall that Gardiner is redundant and is more of a risk than anything on a less-than-stellar backend where he can't be sheltered.

We do not need a stacked D-core. We need a stable one. Rielly, Dermott, and whoever wins the 3rd LHD slot is good enough. We are not resigning him so use him to solve the RHD slot as Dermott can replace Gardiner.
Post of the thread. Nothing further needs to be said.
 

57 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
Nov 12, 2007
8,151
7,282
Yes a few. Every offensive dmen make mistakes. He has great advanced stats and he puts up points. Fast and he is a great passer. He can improve his mental mistakes. You can't teach speed and nailing stretch passes. We can resign Gardiner for 5.5-6 per season and we should.
No, "we" shouldn't.
 

Ziggdiezan

Registered User
Apr 10, 2015
10,847
5,676
Dermott was one of the most sheltered defenseman in the NHL last season.
Makes sense they both played on a third pairing that had a very specific usage.

I was going to mention dermott was sheltered too but whenever I say that people go wild so it would take away from my point that I don't think Dermott and Carrick would make a good 2nd pairing yet.
 

Darcy Tucker

My Name is Bob
Mar 23, 2008
7,338
3,389
Vaughan, Ontario
No, "we" shouldn't.
Quality post. Thanks for your great contribution to our forum. Your logic intrigues me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter/blog.

And I say we because I've been supporting this team and attending games since the late 80s. Probably been a fan longer than you've been alive.
 

Wafflewhipper

Registered User
Jan 18, 2014
14,114
5,694
Post of the thread. Nothing further needs to be said.

Really!!! You can stop reading now then ;))

Gardiner is likely bery much wanted by management. Its the price that will determine if he stays.

How much for that RHD thats much better than Gards!! Well i bet thats a high priced contract that would likely be a detriment.

Nothing elsr to say :))
 

57 Years No Cup

New and Improved Username!
Nov 12, 2007
8,151
7,282
Quality post. Thanks for your great contribution to our forum. Your logic intrigues me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter/blog.

And I say we because I've been supporting this team and attending games since the late 80s. Probably been a fan longer than you've been alive.
I'm 56. Been a Leafs' fan since the late 60's early 70's.

Thanks for playing.
 

Lightsol

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
5,084
3,025
He's not as good as Gardiner yet. People just like to hate on him. Whipping boy for a few miscues...
Yeah, 10-15 games a season is really a few miscues, isn't it?

Gardiner needs to be GONE. The Leafs will never, NEVER, NEVER win anything with him patrolling the blueline. Isn't one series enough already? Do you WANT it to end up like Bryan McCabe, costing us multiple series in consecutive years with bonehead plays? Because McCabe was a big reason the 1999-2004 window closed without the Leafs getting even close, and Jake Gardiner is exactly the same kind of defenceman. He's not worth $6 million. Hell, he's not even worth $4 million. But hey, why not keep firing cap space into this black hole and hope maybe this time it'll work...

It's like people weren't paying attention in 2005-2008...
 

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
16,102
11,295
Dermott was one of the most sheltered defenseman in the NHL last season.
Dermott needs more minutes for sure. He is a good one. He is way more capable of exiting the dzone than guys like Carrick.
A lot of people here don't get it. The defensive problems of the leafs are associated with zone exits...not shot suppression. The reason why the leafs have so many shots on goal is that they can't get the puck out (close to the bottom of the league). Last year only 4 were above average...Rielly, Gardiner, Dermott and Borgman when he played
 

drewjenks

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
1,176
713
Canada
under normal circumstances I would agree with this but we are in a "special case" this upcoming season.

  • This is the last year for Matthews, Marner and Kapanen ELCs
  • We upgraded our center position SIGNIFICANTLY in Tavares
  • There is no asset available internally to replace Gardiner's mins and position
  • Trading Gardiner may not fetch anything of equal value as he is a pending UFA
  • And this is the year that Leafs should really go all in to make that deep run with (ELC contracts, cap etc...) this year

Based on all of the above I guess Gardiner is either re-signed or he walks as a UFA

Are you assuming we'll have to trade away some core pieces next year to fit under the cap?

We won't. We're good. So this special situation isn't really that special.
 

Darcy Tucker

My Name is Bob
Mar 23, 2008
7,338
3,389
Vaughan, Ontario
Yeah, 10-15 games a season is really a few miscues, isn't it?

Gardiner needs to be GONE. The Leafs will never, NEVER, NEVER win anything with him patrolling the blueline. Isn't one series enough already? Do you WANT it to end up like Bryan McCabe, costing us multiple series in consecutive years with bonehead plays? Because McCabe was a big reason the 1999-2004 window closed without the Leafs getting even close, and Jake Gardiner is exactly the same kind of defenceman. He's not worth $6 million. Hell, he's not even worth $4 million. But hey, why not keep firing cap space into this black hole and hope maybe this time it'll work...

It's like people weren't paying attention in 2005-2008...
McCabe was a stud. He messed up a couple times in the playoffs and all the hard work, hard hits and clapper goals mean nothing? Over exagerrating reactionary fan base... Doing the same to Gardiner , he makes a mistake that all other quality dmen make from time to time and all of sudden he's garbage needs to be traded... Other teams would love to have a smooth skating accurate passing 2nd pairing dman like Gardiner. He is just the whipping boy around here because we all want a Duncan Keith but they are hard to come by.
 
Last edited:

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,336
33,188
St. Paul, MN
I'd rather put the money towards a legit top-pair guy but that might not be possible, so I dunno.

Yeah, ideally there would be bette options, but if Dubas can convince him to take a reasonable “team friendly” deal in order to stay on a winning team (say 5.5-6 mil), it would be hard to pass on.
 

HandshakeLineRespect

Respect in the Handshake Line
Apr 17, 2017
1,907
2,016
Brampton
What the “Jake Gardiner has good stats” crowd doesn’t admit is that when Gardiner wets the bed and costs the team a goal or a game it shows up as just one data point in their fancy algorithm. The guy is prone to costing the team in key monents on the regular and I know a lot of fans are sick of it. He can put up all the points in the world but if he’s costing you games what the hell is the point. His time is up, trade him ASAP. Leafs have a home grown replacement that’s team controlled on an elc anyway it just makes too much sense.
 

Morgs

#16 #34 #44 #88 #91
Jul 12, 2015
19,546
15,414
London, ON
Dermott needs more minutes for sure. He is a good one. He is way more capable of exiting the dzone than guys like Carrick.
A lot of people here don't get it. The defensive problems of the leafs are associated with zone exits...not shot suppression. The reason why the leafs have so many shots on goal is that they can't get the puck out (close to the bottom of the league). Last year only 4 were above average...Rielly, Gardiner, Dermott and Borgman when he played

Dermott is tracking better than Parayko. He really is a good one.

They do have a shot suppression problem, but we it's got a lot to do with our transition game. Our stretch passes and iur tip/dump ins need to end. Possess the puck always.
 

rent free

Registered User
Apr 6, 2015
20,427
6,114
Marleaus cap hit is 5m more than the salary owed to him for the season, he’s easy to move.
This is quite the absurd reposnse.

He isn't easy to move whatsoever and his salary relative to his cap is insignificant whatsoever.

It's evident you don't know that either 1) he has a nmc or 2) he wants to play for Babcock and win a cup, or both.
 

Nylanderthal

Registered User
Jun 9, 2010
7,895
6,237
This is quite the absurd reposnse.

He isn't easy to move whatsoever and his salary relative to his cap is insignificant whatsoever.

It's evident you don't know that either 1) he has a nmc or 2) he wants to play for Babcock and win a cup, or both.
Yawn
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Lecce vs Udinese
    Lecce vs Udinese
    Wagers: 4
    Staked: $100.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Czechia vs Switzerland
    Czechia vs Switzerland
    Wagers: 5
    Staked: $935.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Sweden vs Germany
    Sweden vs Germany
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Fiorentina vs Monza
    Fiorentina vs Monza
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $205.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Aston Villa vs Liverpool
    Aston Villa vs Liverpool
    Wagers: 4
    Staked: $302.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad