Defensively: Couturier vs Barkov

[Juicy Pop]

Good thing this thread is Barkov vs Couts.

I hope no one here is trying to say Couts has better puck skills than Barkov.

Who is the better defensive player, the one who prevents dangerous plays from ever occurring through sheer sense and positioning or the one who needs to actively exert themselves to thwart attempts that would have otherwise been prevented by the former?

That's the entire point of this thread, efficient versus flashy play.

 

[steierwrass]

Who is the better defensive player, the one who prevents dangerous plays from ever occurring through sheer sense and positioning or the one who needs to actively exert themselves to thwart attempts that would have otherwise been prevented by the former?

That's the entire point of this thread.

It's hard to believe, that you have ever seen Barkov, or either of these guys, playing. Maybe not even hockey ever. These posts are ridiculous.

 

[Beezeral]

Do you want to know something funny about takeaways? This wasn't credited as one despite the fact that Scheifele did touch the puck on the broadcast angle.



It's a garbage stat because its tallied 31 different ways around the league.

so now its a garbage stat because takeaways are missed? you think there might be missed takeaways for Barkov as well?

 

[BB88]

Who is the better defensive player, the one who prevents dangerous plays from ever occurring through sheer sense and positioning or the one who needs to actively exert themselves to thwart attempts that would have otherwise been prevented by the former?

That's the entire point of this thread.

Can you explain the skills that make Couts better defensively than Barkov, I'm curious to find out.

 

[Juicy Pop]

so now its a garbage stat because takeaways are missed? you think there might be missed takeaways for Barkov as well?

No, because "takeaway" means 31 different things in 31 different buildings.

 

[Beezeral]

Who is the better defensive player, the one who prevents dangerous plays from ever occurring through sheer sense and positioning or the one who needs to actively exert themselves to thwart attempts that would have otherwise been prevented by the former?

That's the entire point of this thread, efficient versus flashy play.

this might be the first time ever someone has called Barkov's game flashy. My god this thread keeps delivering.

 

[Juicy Pop]

this might be the first time ever someone has called Barkov's game flashy. My god this thread keeps delivering.

Hey, I'm not the one quoting stick checks and takeaways in a thread on defense. You're obviously taken in by the highlight reel moments more so than steady play.

 

[thomast]

this might be the first time ever someone has called Barkov's game flashy. My god this thread keeps delivering.

Yeah that is funny. Barkov is like hockey robot. Yes he has quick hands but his game is all about effectiveness.

 

[Zamuz]

Barkov

 

[The Rage Kage]

Let's check in on the eye test.



Lol

Ah yes, using one shift as evidence after Couts played 30 minutes the night before. You have me convinced.

 

[Beezeral]

Hey, I'm not the one quoting stick checks and takeaways in a thread on defense. You're obviously taken in by the highlight reel moments more so than steady play.

wait, its the fact that he is elite at taking the puck away from his opponent is flashy? welp

 

[The Rage Kage]

CA/60: 51.18 vs 56.77
CA Rel/60: -5.41 vs -3.31

ExGA/60: 2.16 vs 2.41
ExGA Rel/60: -0.08 vs -0.09

Couturier fares better in 3/4, with the final one a wash.

And they play very similar minutes... Couturier has tougher opposition, Barkov 3% less Offensive ZSR:

ZSR: 43% vs 40%
QoC Corsi: 50.16 vs 49.9
QoC TOI: 29.75 vs 29.67

They play a different style of defensive hockey (not dissimilar to say the difference between Datsyuk and Bergeron... Datsyuk more "active") but this season at least the indications are that Couturier has had more of an impact when on ice.

I'm gonna quote this because people love ignoring appleyard. Needs to be on every page.

 

[BB88]

Hey, I'm not the one quoting stick checks and takeaways in a thread on defense. You're obviously taken in by the highlight reel moments more so than steady play.

Yeah let's just ignore those, because breaking up plays isn't playing defense?

Just like 7 vs 23 pk goals against mean absolutely nothing in a defensive thread, just like faceoffs, %, the amount of faceoffs taken, especially in the D-zone, just because.

I'm gonna quote this because people love ignoring appleyard. Needs to be on every page.

I' love to hear how Couts has had a bigger impact on ice than Barkov.

Again Barkov is the leader on the Panthers, the play goes through him. Can Flyers fans say the same for Couts?

if Couts better it shouldn't be this hard to tell a skill he's better at.

 

[Juicy Pop]

wait, its the fact that he is elite at taking the puck away from his opponent is flashy? welp

It's the point that takeaways, as they are currently logged, aren't a reliable metric to actually assess that.

If you believe that they are then you should be able to correlate that stat with some other positive marker of success. Good luck with that.

 

[Beezeral]

Ah yes, using one shift as evidence after Couts played 30 minutes the night before. You have me convinced.

not that I'm not enjoying your hyperbole, but just because, the Panthers were playing their 4th game in 6 nights, Barkov dominated Couturier so badly that game that there were a bunch of posts from Flyers fans commenting on it, and Barkov leads all forwards in TOI so...

 

[BB88]

How difficult is it to tell a skill where Couturier is better than Barkov?

And who the hell really believes he's had a bigger impact to his team than Barkov on Florida?

 

[Juicy Pop]

How difficult is it to tell a skill where Couturier is better than Barkov?

And who the hell really believes he's had a bigger impact to his team than Barkov on Florida?

What elements are foundational to that perception in relation to any other player in the league? So far I've seen a lot of nonsense stats and highlight reels.

I'm trying to get to the root of why it is that you believe as you do so that we can have an actual discussion.

 

[Beezeral]

CA/60: 51.18 vs 56.77
CA Rel/60: -5.41 vs -3.31

ExGA/60: 2.16 vs 2.41
ExGA Rel/60: -0.08 vs -0.09

Couturier fares better in 3/4, with the final one a wash.

And they play very similar minutes... Couturier has tougher opposition, Barkov 3% less Offensive ZSR:

ZSR: 43% vs 40%
QoC Corsi: 50.16 vs 49.9
QoC TOI: 29.75 vs 29.67

They play a different style of defensive hockey (not dissimilar to say the difference between Datsyuk and Bergeron... Datsyuk more "active") but this season at least the indications are that Couturier has had more of an impact when on ice.

lmao at using a 0.17% difference to claim victory in QoC Corsi.

Also, all your stats show the corsi when Couturier is on the ice. It does nothing to show the impact his linemates have on that number. Yet, when you go to the stats that are player specific (ex only the player in question impacts that number, Barkov dominates it)

I have got no problem saying these two players are close. I have no problem if there are flyer fans who want to take their guy over Barkov. What I find hilarious is the flyer fans who want to show up and claim its not even close. It's laughable.

 

[urho]

And who the hell really believes he's had a bigger impact to his team than Barkov on Florida?

It's the stats that tell that to us.

lmao at using a 0.17% difference to claim victory in QoC Corsi.

Also, all your stats show the corsi when Couturier is on the ice. It does nothing to show the impact his linemates have on that number. Yet, when you go to the stats that are player specific (ex only the player in question impacts that number, Barkov dominates it)

That's exactly my problem with the advanced stats. The people that actually make those stats and analyze them as a profession are quite good at it and they mostly know their meaning, importance etc. However, "the 2nd hand use" is full on misrepresentations and it's flat out tiring to argue about this.

I'm not a mathematician but I am a scientist in the field of history and if there's something I've learned studying and making research it's the importance and careful subjective reading of any kind of statistics you're using. Contextualising is the key if you're about to get anything significant out of the stats you're using.

 

[Beezeral]

What elements are foundational to that perception in relation to any other player in the league? So far I've seen a lot of nonsense stats and highlight reels.

I'm trying to get to the root of why it is that you believe as you do so that we can have an actual discussion.

Here is your problem. Talking heads around the NHL are raving about Barkov and citing the exact same stats and highlights that you call nonsense as a reason why he is so great. You can keep sticking your head in the sand but the reality is that Barkov is an elite defensive player that many around the NHL think is one of if not the best defensive forward in the NHL.

 

[Gsus]

Barkov

 

[BB88]

What elements are foundational to that perception in relation to any other player in the league? So far I've seen a lot of nonsense stats and highlight reels.

I'm trying to get to the root of why it is that you believe as you do so that we can have an actual discussion.

Yes you don't accept stats that won't support Couturier.

I'll say it again, Giroux has 34 more points than Dadonov, Voracek has 13 more points than Florida's 2nd best points producer after Barkov.
Couts has 17 points less than Giroux. Barkov has 3 more points in 4 less games than Couturier.

Barkov averages the most by forwars in this league, something you won't accept,
Barkov has 5 shorthanded goals, and been on the ice for 7 pk goals against, won't accept this either,
Barkov gets used a ton in D-zone faceoffs, same
Barkov has tougher zone starts than Couturier, same
Barkov has worse support than Couts, same.

=Couts has had a bigger impact on Flyers success than Barkov, and I'll say helloouu Giroux& Voracek.

Why can't I get an answer in what skill is Couts better than Barkov at if he's clearly the better player, should be plenty of skills.
Barkov is elite in about everything except shot, which is still good, he just doesn't shoot as often as he should. He has to be one of the toughest F's to get the puck from, thanks to Jagr and his 6'3 frame.

 

[Juicy Pop]

lmao at using a 0.17% difference to claim victory in QoC Corsi.

Also, all your stats show the corsi when Couturier is on the ice. It does nothing to show the impact his linemates have on that number. Yet, when you go to the stats that are player specific (ex only the player in question impacts that number, Barkov dominates it)

I have got no problem saying these two players are close. I have no problem if there are flyer fans who want to take their guy over Barkov. What I find hilarious is the flyer fans who want to show up and claim its not even close. It's laughable.

As far as I'm aware, that's a fairly large difference for that particular stat.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

 

[FlaPanthers11]

We are years away from being able to accurately measure defensive performance statistically.