Defensively: Couturier vs Barkov

[thomast]

Offense



This is a positive point in Barkov's favor but it's also likely a blip given that he's only scored 6 total in his entire career to Couturier's 4 total.



This can be seen as a positive point but there are confounding issues here, specifically that Philly has struggled on the PK regardless of Couturier's presence on any particular unit.



As I noted earlier, none of these counting stats are compelling given that you need to be in a defensive position to make the play in the first place.

How can you judge just how valuable these instances are if you can't correlate them to any sort of positive on-ice event?



It's marginal and Couturier has tougher competition to balance it.



Based on this year, they're roughly equivalent on percentages with the only difference being that Philly has the advantage of having one of the best faceoff men in the league at LW.

Composite

Barkov: 1531 [54.5%]
Couturier: 905 [53.9%]

Defensive

Barkov: 594 [57.1%]
Couturier: 397 [56.4%]

Couturier is sheltered in defensive zone faceoffs. Majority of his faceoffs is on his strong side. Giroux take his weak side faceoffs. Which is smart by coaching staff.

Voracek has been on same line with Couturier over 38% of the time and Konecny over 42% of the time. Compare their corsi stats to Bjugstad/Huberdeau and Dadonov with and without their C’s.

Barkov has elite if not best in the league in induvidual stats. Couturier has better corsi# but linemates have huge impact in that and Barkov is still top 5 without Giroux on his line. Selke trophy is induvidual award. Barkov stomps Couturier in that regard. Bergeron without injury might be still favourite to win because he is only one who can compete with Barkov in induvidual defensive stats but has stronger posession stats. If Bergeron was healthy he would be #1 but him missing games and Marchand taking little bit of his spotlight it has to be Barkov.

 

[Juicy Pop]

Couturier is sheltered in defensive zone faceoffs. Majority of his faceoffs is on his strong side. Giroux take his weak side faceoffs. Which is smart by coaching staff.

Right on.

The point is?

 

[Appleyard]

Couturier is sheltered in defensive zone faceoffs. Majority of his faceoffs is on his strong side. Giroux take his weak side faceoffs. Which is smart by coaching staff.

He put up 55.1% last season overall and 54.8% in the DZ... without Giroux taking ANY of his face-offs for him, because both were playing centre on different lines.

I mean, I am not really so sure that Giroux is helping that much in terms of his % given that fact.

 

[BB88]

Offense



This is a positive point in Barkov's favor but it's also likely a blip given that he's only scored 6 total in his entire career to Couturier's 4 total.



This can be seen as a positive point but there are confounding issues here, specifically that Philly has struggled on the PK regardless of Couturier's presence on any particular unit.



As I noted earlier, none of these counting stats are compelling given that you need to be in a defensive position to make the play in the first place.

How can you judge just how valuable these instances are if you can't correlate them to any sort of positive on-ice event?



It's marginal and Couturier has tougher competition to balance it.



Based on this year, they're roughly equivalent on percentages with the only difference being that Philly has the advantage of having one of the best faceoff men in the league at LW.

Composite

Barkov: 1531 [54.5%]
Couturier: 905 [53.9%]

Defensive

Barkov: 594 [57.1%]
Couturier: 397 [56.4%]

Defensive zone faceoffs is pretty important when we are talking of defense, defensive plays are important when we are talking of defense.
You still ignored my quest to find out the skills where Couturier is better at for the 20th time.

I'm sure you know Florida was a mess on the 1st half, especially defensively. Barkov was used a lot to cover it, he was double shifting at times, logging insane minutes so Florida could have a shot. Barkov is to Florida what Bergeron is to Bruins.

the thread is about defense. Hard stop barkov is a better player but not better defensively.

I posted defensive stats and I was replied with offensive stats.

How is Couturier better at defensively, what skill I ask for the 21st time. As we've seen Barkov makes more defensive plays and so far has destroyed Couts on pk. Barkov has the best defensive stick.

 

[BB88]

Maybe I jumped into the wrong discussion if you were debating with someone about who is their team MVP or the better offensive player. I guess I just don't get why Couturier playing on the same team as two other great offensive players makes him worse, specifically on defense. If they traded Voracek tomorrow would that somehow make Couts a better player? I don't think anyone is debating that Giroux is better than Couturier but I also can't imagine there are many Flyers fans that would give up Couts over Voracek if they had to pick one.

I don't understand how you can even ask that question.

Giroux is superior player to anyone Barkov has played with, in his best years Giroux has been one of the best players in the league. I don't understand how you can't see how this could possible help Couturier.
You don't think Barkovs numbers would go up if he had the chance to play with Giroux?

This thread has had offensive numbers per 60 whatever posted and how Couts means more to Flyers than Barkov to Florida. As I've explained the big difference between the 2 is that Barkov is Floridas best player, the play goes through him. When things go rough everyone looks at him to make the play, on both ends of the ice.
No one has more points than Barkov has on Florida team, he has 17& 28 more points than his linemates.
Barkov is the 1st guy to asked to make the defensive play. He has as well proven to carry garbage on his wings and produce #1C numbers, he's turned around Bjugstad's game, who fans were hoping not that long ago to get shipped out of the team, for free basically if nothing else was possible.

Couts doesn't have the same pressure with Flyers, there's 2 guys on the team with more points than him, one of them has 17 points more than him.
He's having a fantastic year, but again, Barkov is the leader of his team on both ends, plays with worse linemates and has still produced better.

 

[StoneHands]

Couturier is sheltered in defensive zone faceoffs. Majority of his faceoffs is on his strong side. Giroux take his weak side faceoffs. Which is smart by coaching staff.

So? This is seriously grasping at straws. Couts has proven to be good on faceoffs regardless of where they are taken. He was over 55% last year while taking essentially all of the faceoffs for his line. Couts taking more draws on his weak side isn't going to all of the sudden drop his percentages by much if at all. Giroux and Couts take faceoffs depending on where they want to win the draw. It doesn't mean Couts can't win on a specific side, it just means Giroux might be able to win it cleaner to a specific player if they have a set play.

 

[Beezeral]

This can be seen as a positive point but there are confounding issues here, specifically that Philly has struggled on the PK regardless of Couturier's presence on any particular unit.

There’s always an excuse why a stat that goes against couturier is invalid, but god forbid anyone question the pro-couturier stats.

 

[Juicy Pop]

There’s always an excuse why a stat that goes against couturier is invalid, but god forbid anyone question the pro-couturier stats.

Well, tell me why I shouldn't be concerned about Philly's abysmal PK when it comes to assessing raw PK goals? I'm listening.

 

[Appleyard]

I mean... it is funny we are talking about Giroux's influence on his points.

but Couturier had better 5v5 P/60 than Giroux in 2015-16 and 2016-17... albeit 2016-17 was a crippled Giroux.

Couturier also led the Flyers in 5v5 P/60 over the 2015-17 span, with 1.79/60... which is 1st line level over that time span.

They help each other.



But this is not about offense. Barkov is the better offensive player. The poll is specifically about defense.

 

[Appleyard]

Well, tell me why I shouldn't be concerned about Philly's abysmal PK when it comes to assessing raw PK goals? I'm listening.

Especially since Couturier actually has better CA/60, CA/60 rel and ExGA/60 on the PK this season... though Barkov's ExGA/60 rel is better.

CA/60: 93.3 vs 110.02
CA/60 rel: -7.15 vs -0.22

ExGA/60: 6.6 vs 7.88
ExGA/60 rel: -0.26 vs -0.96

 

[StoneHands]

I don't understand how you can even ask that question.

Giroux is superior player to anyone Barkov has played with, in his best years Giroux has been one of the best players in the league. I don't understand how you can't see how this could possible help Couturier.
You don't think Barkovs numbers would go up if he had the chance to play with Giroux?

This thread has had offensive numbers per 60 whatever posted and how Couts means more to Flyers than Barkov to Florida. As I've explained the big difference between the 2 is that Barkov is Floridas best player, the play goes through him. When things go rough everyone looks at him to make the play, on both ends of the ice.
No one has more points than Barkov has on Florida team, he has 17& 28 more points than his linemates.
Barkov is the 1st guy to asked to make the defensive play. He has as well proven to carry garbage on his wings and produce #1C numbers, he's turned around Bjugstad's game, who fans were hoping not that long ago to get shipped out of the team, for free basically if nothing else is possible.

Couts doesn't have the same pressure with Flyers, there's 2 guys on the team with more points than he, one of them has 17 points more than him.
He's having a fantastic year, but again, Barkov is the leader of his team on both ends, plays with worse linemates and has still produced better.

If you're specifically talking about who Couts and Barkov play on a line with then why do you still bring up Voracek? They don't play together. I'm almost certain Couts is leading the team in ES points which is when two way play actually happens so I'm not sure why Giroux and Voracek being excellent PP players makes Couts somehow a worse player, specifically on defense. Again, nobody is saying Couturier is a better overall player than Barkov so if you're trying to say that Giroux is making Couts a better defensive player then you really just lost me. Flyers fans have been told that Giroux is a PP specialist that can't get it done at ES for the last 3-4 years and now all the sudden he's having a career year while playing with Couts and Konecny which are clearly not the best offensive weapons he's played with. So who is benefiting from who? If you ask me and any other Flyers fan they will tell you that Couts offense has obviously taken off playing with Giroux but that Giroux has regained his peak form at ES because of Couts two way play. Couturier has made everyone he's played with better. Again, Barkov is a better overall player. Literally nobody is debating that, so I just don't get why points are even being brought up here.

 

[Beezeral]

Well, tell me why I shouldn't be concerned about Philly's abysmal PK when it comes to assessing raw PK goals? I'm listening.

Because you would think the superior defensive player would do a comparable job of preventing PP goals when he is on the ice. I mean, couturier is the less flashy player who is better in the defensive zone who doesn’t need those flashy moves where he takes the puck away from opponents more than any forward in the NHL

 

[BB88]

If you're specifically talking about who Couts and Barkov play on a line with then why do you still bring up Voracek? They don't play together. I'm almost certain Couts is leading the team in ES points which is when two way play actually happens so I'm not sure why Giroux and Voracek being excellent PP players makes Couts somehow a worse player, specifically on defense. Again, nobody is saying Couturier is a better overall player than Barkov so if you're trying to say that Giroux is making Couts a better defensive player then you really just lost me. Flyers fans have been told that Giroux is a PP specialist that can't get it done at ES for the last 3-4 years and now all the sudden he's having a career year while playing with Couts and Konecny which are clearly not the best offensive weapons he's played with. So who is benefiting from who? If you ask me and any other Flyers fan they will tell you that Couts offense has obviously taken off playing with Giroux but that Giroux has regained his peak form at ES because of Couts two way play. Couturier has made everyone he's played with better. Again, Barkov is a better overall player. Literally nobody is debating that, so I just don't get why points are even being brought up here.

I'm saying Giroux on a line certainly doesn't make him worse. You believe he posts the exact same stats if he doesn't have Giroux on his line? The point.

I again didn't even start the offensive argument here, or MVP.

 

[StoneHands]

There’s always an excuse why a stat that goes against couturier is invalid, but god forbid anyone question the pro-couturier stats.

Kind of like when people say that Couts benefits from Giroux taking half the draws on his line when in fact Couturier's FO% was higher last year when he was taking every draw? Face it, the excuses are being made from both sides, don't think you guys are above it.

 

[StoneHands]

I'm saying Giroux on a line certainly doesn't make him worse. You believe he posts the exact same stats if he doesn't have Giroux on his line? The point.

I again didn't even start the offensive argument here, or MVP.

Do I think he's as good of a defensive player without Giroux and Konecny (not a good defensive forward) on his line? Yes, he's 100% just as good. I didn't bring up one offensive stat or argument and said many times Barkov is the better overall player but somehow lines and points keep being posted.

 

[Beezeral]

Kind of like when people say that Couts benefits from Giroux taking half the draws on his line when in fact Couturier's FO% was higher last year when he was taking every draw? Face it, the excuses are being made from both sides, don't think you guys are above it.

If you can’t see how it’s a knock against the guy in a discussion of BEST defensive player that he’s not asked to take defensive draws on his weak side, I don’t know what to tell you. In the grand scheme of evaluating a player. You are right. That fact is unimportant, but in a thread where we get into the nitty gritty, it’s a factor.

 

[StoneHands]

If you can’t see how it’s a knock against the guy in a discussion of BEST defensive player that he’s not asked to take defensive draws on his weak side, I don’t know what to tell you. In the grand scheme of evaluating a player. You are right. That fact is unimportant, but in a thread where we get into the nitty gritty, it’s a factor.

Not being asked to take all of the draws doesn't mean he wouldn't be just as good if he did take them all. The fact that his coach trusts him to take half the draw over one of the absolute best faceoff guys in the NHL tells you just how good he is in the dot. If Barkov was moved to a line with Giroux this year he probably wouldn't have taken any faceoffs given the fact that he was at 46.5% last year.

 

[Juicy Pop]

If you can’t see how it’s a knock against the guy in a discussion of BEST defensive player that he’s not asked to take defensive draws on his weak side, I don’t know what to tell you. In the grand scheme of evaluating a player. You are right. That fact is unimportant, but in a thread where we get into the nitty gritty, it’s a factor.

It just seems like more of a null attribute. It's neither a positive or a negative for him that one of the best faceoff takers in the league happens to play on his LW.

 

[BB88]

Do I think he's as good of a defensive player without Giroux and Konecny (not a good defensive forward) on his line? Yes, he's 100% just as good. I didn't bring up one offensive stat or argument and said many times Barkov is the better overall player but somehow lines and points keep being posted.

I didn't ask about offensive stat,s I asked does he post the exact same stats without him?

 

[Juicy Pop]

I didn't ask about offensive stat,s I asked does he post the exact same stats without him?

Who knows. He's obviously taken another step forward this year and looks to be on track for his first full season in two+ years.

 

[StoneHands]

I didn't ask about offensive stat,s I asked does he post the exact same stats without him?

You didn't ask about stats but you're asking about stats? So defensive and possession stats? Yes, most likely.

 

[Adtar02]

As much as we talk about stats and pretend that they're objective (almost any stat is meaningless unless you can explain something using it), let's talk about their game. What makes Couturier better than Barkov defensively? What does he do better? Is he positionally better? How's his defensive stick? Board work? Just throwing stats around (stats from 5 on 5 play, not individual metrics*) is useless if we can't analyze players strengths and possible weaknesses.

* And again, those stats are not the absolute truth about anything. Team play, chemistry even the playing strategy and teams coach affect those stats. Yes, they're useful backing up what you see on the ice but they alone don't really tell you that much. You have to use qualitative research as well since the data we gather from this game doesn't tell everything.

I dont think that you understand. I was responding to people using offensive stats and talking about barkov being the MVP for his team. The qquestion is who is better defensively. I believe that is Coots. Stick check and takeaways are great. The problem is the compiling of them. Some one with a higher Corsi should have less take aways due to playing in the O-zone more often. I would look at appleyard if you want to understand whats at work here. These two players are for sure the next two major players to battle like Bergeron and Kopitar.

 

[urho]

I believe that is Coots.

But wasn't that just what I was asking? What does he do better than Barkov individually? I'm genuinely interested in this, it's not like I'm trying to go against you or anything. Like I said earlier, my own opinion is that they're both so good defensively it's a toss-up. But since I don't believe numbers are the objective truth in this matter since they're too flawed to accurately rank players neither offensively or defensively, I'd like to discuss their game.

 

[FinlandPanther]

I mean if you just watched both play you’d see Barkov is easily better at everything. Couturier can’t even backcheck like Barkov due to his average skating. Barkov is a hound. In the game against Barkov couturier lost the puck to him and gave up. Not a bad idea considering he would never get it back. Also would love to say that a couple months ago people said coots was better than Barkov offensively and that looks laughable now but they all disappeared. Hmmm.

 

[urho]

Here's Weekes and Lawton showing some love for Barkov: