Defensively: Couturier vs Barkov

[steierwrass]

Ironically, this comes across too defensively. All I'm saying is that takeaways aren't that reliable. Couturier's real strength lies in the fact that he doesn't need to retrieve the puck as often as others.

This isn't a sleight on Barkov at all. It's just a continuation of Couturier being the most under-rated defensive player in the league.

Sounds funny, that he has so much more puck. Couturier wins little less faceoffs, so he should have little less puck after those. Then there have to be more giveaways for Barkov line to make that happen. Probably there are, because they are worse players. But then you have to say, that Couturier gets edge to his Corsi numbers from his linemates. Etc.

I don't know, which one is defensively better. I don't even care. I don't understand, why it's so big thing for someone, that have to downplay other guy. They both are top 4 selke nominees. Pretty good from young guys like them. They are both nice first line centers for their teams.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

Making a lot of plays off the puck doesn't necessarily indicate that a player is a high caliber defensive forward, otherwise blocks and takeaways would be highly regarded stats.

If you have to fight for the puck frequently, it's at least one sign that you're not strong on the puck when its on your stick.

And if you knew how Barkov plays you would know how ludicrous that statement is. Barkov has some of the best puck protection in the game, think Kopitar. And Barkov might have better hands.

 

[tony d]

Couturier.

 

[Beezeral]

Making a lot of plays off the puck doesn't necessarily indicate that a player is a high caliber defensive forward, otherwise blocks and takeaways would be highly regarded stats.

If you have to fight for the puck frequently, it's a sign that you're not strong on the puck when its on your stick. I don't think you can reasonably argue that maintain possession is the highest caliber of "defensive play" possible.

The massive flaw in your logic is treating takeaways/stick checks the same as blocked shots. Blocked shots have to take place in the defensive zone and imply that you are hemmed in your own zone. Stick checks and takeaways can happen anywhere and in the case of takeaways, directly result in your team now possessing the puck. The highlights of Barkov have been posted numerous times. Look how often he is taking away a puck in the offensive or neutral zone while the opponent is attempting to break out and instead of defending a rush up ice, the panthers have an odd man chance. It happens so often it’s not even suprising at this point.

 

[Juicy Pop]

And if you knew how Barkov plays you would know how ludicrous that statement is. Barkov has some of the best puck protection in the game, think Kopitar. And Barkov might have better hands.

Sure, but the implication isn't just his direct strength. It also includes his movement, his passing and his positioning when the puck is on the stick of a teammate.

The massive flaw in your logic is treating takeaways/stick checks the same as blocked shots. Blocked shots have to take place in the defensive zone and imply that you are hemmed in your own zone. Stick checks and takeaways can happen anywhere and in the case of takeaways, directly result in your team now possessing the puck. The highlights of Barkov have been posted numerous times. Look how often he is taking away a puck in the offensive or neutral zone while the opponent is attempting to break out and instead of defending a rush up ice, the panthers have an odd man chance. It happens so often it’s not even suprising at this point.

I can show you just as many highlights of Ghost's stick-work in the defensive zone and at the opposing blue line, but nobody would call him a serious Norris contender now would they?

 

[cotopaxi]

Barkov AINEC.

 

[thomast]

Sure, but the implication isn't just his direct strength. It also includes his movement, his passing and his positioning when the puck is on the stick of a teammate.



I can show you just as many highlights of Ghost's stick-work in the defensive zone and at the opposing blue line, but nobody would call him a serious Norris contender now would they?

Giroux is el mano of that line. He is amazing with the puck and he is having the puck most of the time. Barkov plays with Bjugstad and Dadonov who have looked lost without Barkov. Giroux is taking all the weak side defensive FOs for Couturier. Supporting cast is way stronger for Couturier which boosts his corsi numbers. Barkov is best in the NHL in induvidual defensive metrics and top 5 in corsi without playing with elite puck posession, FO, and two-way play in Giroux. Barkov is thriving the play defensively and offensively. Guy is like -3 goals on PK entire season. Couts is over -20.

Induvidually it is Barkov not close. If we compare lines it is most likely Philly line. Selke is induvidual award so it has to be Barkov.

 

[Sasso09]

So every stat posted favors Couturier. While argument for Barkov is "he's better overall and I like him more"

Pretty dead on what I expected.

Better overall: Barkov
Better defensively: Couturier by a lot
HF New boy crush: Barkov

 

[Sasso09]

And if you knew how Barkov plays you would know how ludicrous that statement is. Barkov has some of the best puck protection in the game, think Kopitar. And Barkov might have better hands.

57 giveaways disagrees with you

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

57 giveaways disagrees with you

When you have the puck more, you tend to give it away more. No one can hold on to the puck forever.

 

[urho]

Barkov had 71 take aways/ 57 give away
Couturier had 42 take away/ 34 give away

Almost identical take away to give away ratio, only thing that tells us is that Couturier is safer with the puck, Barkov more aggressive and risky. That's an advantage of Couturier when talking about defense.

That's just non-contextual stupidity. Barkov literally carries his team being - by far - the best player with the puck on his team. Hell, their whole zone entry-strategy is basically to give Barkov the puck and follow him around.

And seriously, all this talk about "every defensive metric" is seriously worrying because no one talks about who's playing with who. What if you compared Barkovs stats to his linemates stats and do the same with Couturier? It's a team game for Cthulhus sake.

And all these AINEC-answers and saying that one of them is clearly better than the other, get real. If we're talking about pure defensive game both Barkov and Couturier must be like top 5 players in the league right now (among forwards of course). It's obviously really close and it might be impossible to say who's better. It's an interesting comparison and I'd enjoy hearing arguments for both but what I see here is kind of unbelievable at times.

I myself am quite happy that the proven Selke-types aka Kopitar and Bergeron have some younger challengers now.

 

[Beezeral]

Sure, but the implication isn't just his direct strength. It also includes his movement, his passing and his positioning when the puck is on the stick of a teammate.



I can show you just as many highlights of Ghost's stick-work in the defensive zone and at the opposing blue line, but nobody would call him a serious Norris contender now would they?

19 takeaways for ghost. I love the guy but lol at this attempt. never mind how ridiculous it is that you tried to compare a defenseman to a forward.

 

[Sasso09]

When you have the puck more, you tend to give it away more. No one can hold on to the puck forever.

Datsyuk disagrees

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

Datsyuk disagrees

Ok?

 

[Beezeral]

That's just non-contextual stupidity. Barkov literally carries his team being - by far - the best player with the puck on his team. Hell, their whole zone entry-strategy is basically to give Barkov the puck and follow him around.

And seriously, all this talk about "every defensive metric" is seriously worrying because no one talks about who's playing with who. What if you compared Barkovs stats to his linemates stats and do the same with Couturier? It's a team game for Cthulhus sake.

And all these AINEC-answers and saying that one of them is clearly better than the other, get real. If we're talking about pure defensive game both Barkov and Couturier must be like top 5 players in the league right now (among forwards of course). It's obviously really close and it might be impossible to say who's better. It's an interesting comparison and I'd enjoy hearing arguments for both but what I see here is kind of unbelievable at times.

I myself am quite happy that the proven Selke-types aka Kopitar and Bergeron have some younger challengers now.

he is why this thread was made. he has been on this crusade for a while. it makes me laugh every time. It is hilarious watching him show up in this thread confident that it will be a blowout in favor of Couturier and then when the results inevitably don't go his way he blames the European and Panther vote. Never mind that there are 3x as many posts on the flyers board then there are on the Panthers board.

 

[Beezeral]

Datsyuk disagrees

you mean the guy who had 68, 49, and 71 giveaways in the 3 years he won the Selke?

 

[Sasso09]

That's just non-contextual stupidity. Barkov literally carries his team being - by far - the best player with the puck on his team. Hell, their whole zone entry-strategy is basically to give Barkov the puck and follow him around.

And seriously, all this talk about "every defensive metric" is seriously worrying because no one talks about who's playing with who. What if you compared Barkovs stats to his linemates stats and do the same with Couturier? It's a team game for Cthulhus sake.

And all these AINEC-answers and saying that one of them is clearly better than the other, get real. If we're talking about pure defensive game both Barkov and Couturier must be like top 5 players in the league right now (among forwards of course). It's obviously really close and it might be impossible to say who's better. It's an interesting comparison and I'd enjoy hearing arguments for both but what I see here is kind of unbelievable at times.

I myself am quite happy that the proven Selke-types aka Kopitar and Bergeron have some younger challengers now.

If context is what you're seeking then look at career stats, Couturier has been posting these elite defensive numbers long before playing with any talent, while carrying players far worse than Barkov currently is. He just didn't have the PP time of offensive opportunity he has now, the guy had like a 30% OZS And was the most defensively used center in the league, and STILL had the best ES P/60 on the Flyers.

No defensive stats, at any point favor Barkov, in any situation.

Im still waiting on them... can one of the 60 voters enlighten me? And what exactly is a "successful defensive play"?

 

[Sasso09]

you mean the guy who had 68, 49, and 71 giveaways in the 3 years he won the Selke?

With farrrrrr better take away/giveaway ratio than Barkov, who will have more give away and far less take away by years end

 

[Sasso09]

you mean the guy who had 68, 49, and 71 giveaways in the 3 years he won the Selke?

When are you going to post any defensive stat in favor of Barkov?

Rhetorical question

 

[Beezeral]

No defensive stats, at any point favor Barkov, in any situation.

this is why your arguments are so hilariously bad. there have been plenty of stats posted where Barkov is superior to Couturier. you just either ignore them or come up with nonsense arguments why they don't matter.

 

[steierwrass]

With farrrrrr better take away/giveaway ratio than Barkov, who will have more give away and far less take away by years end

Is moving goal posts your favorite hobby?

 

[thomast]

With farrrrrr better take away/giveaway ratio than Barkov, who will have more give away and far less take away by years end

Care to answer my posts? There is info why Barkov is better induvidual defensive player than Couturier. I have post this page and last page.

 

[Beezeral]

When are you going to post any defensive stat in favor of Barkov?

Rhetorical question

more takeaways, more stick checks, vastly superior on the PK. Nevermind that the margin is razor thin in the stats you are using to prop up couturier despite the fact he plays with vastly superior line mates.

 

[Juicy Pop]

19 takeaways for ghost. I love the guy but lol at this attempt. never mind how ridiculous it is that you tried to compare a defenseman to a forward.

Do you want to know something funny about takeaways? This wasn't credited as one despite the fact that Scheifele did touch the puck on the broadcast angle.



It's a garbage stat because its tallied 31 different ways around the league.

 

[BB88]

Making a lot of plays off the puck doesn't necessarily indicate that a player is a high caliber defensive forward, otherwise blocks and takeaways would be highly regarded stats.

If you have to fight for the puck frequently, it's at least one sign that you're not strong on the puck when its on your stick.

Good thing this thread is Barkov vs Couts.

I hope no one here is trying to say Couts has better puck skills than Barkov. Barkov has elite hands& puck protection.