OT: Coronavirus XVI: Hey Covid-19, Piss Off Already

[doulos]

How has JK Rowling been cancelled? She has faced criticism from certain people, but she didn't back down, didn't delete her words, and seems to be plodding along just fine.

I think she has figured out this whole twitter thing, realizing that for the most part people will vent and rant, and then eventually get distracted by some new shiny thing to be outraged at, and then move on.

Regarding Cheryl Johner - saying she's not wrong in her assessment. Do you have evidence that refugee kids are more or less violent than other kids in the school system? She didn't provide any.

My son attended a public school for the past 3 years that was majority visible minority kids, with a huge number of them who came to Canada as refugees. I'd have to look up the stats, but I want to say the last time I checked it was 80% kids who are visible minorities. Last year I attended Remembrance Day ceremonies at the school and when the videos came up that showed scenes of war kids started to burst into tears. They have witnessed some really tough stuff. We had a kid in one of my son's classes that couldn't get home to fall classes on time because they were stuck in an area that was being bombed when they went home over the summer to visit family.

If you read this particular article Edmonton school trustee resigns over comments on refugee children and violence | Edmonton Journal they have some words from someone who has actually has some knowledge in this area and she said this in the article.

Kirova, who specializes in the integration of immigrant and refugee children in schools, recently reviewed 25 studies on the topic. She said refugee students sometimes exhibit anxiety, insecurity, PTSD, feelings of helplessness and adjustment problems, but that anger is relatively uncommon.

“There are some studies — four out of 25 I recently reviewed — that showed that there are some behaviours related to anger in male children who have been in refugee camps for an extended period of time, who have no social support in the community that they’re in, or parental support, or professional support,” she said.

"So if we just say that in general they’re more violent and that’s why we need police presence in schools — it’s not recorded in the (academic) literature that I’m aware of,” she said.

So Johner had every right to called out on her statements that were not supported by evidence. Were they racist? I personally doubt tat was the intent. They sure were harmful and baseless. Did she need to resign? I don't know. There may have been a better way to resolve the issue. But based on her apology and her actions, she clearly felt she was in the wrong, and that she was no longer suitable for the role she held. That was her choice. Was she under pressure from people? Yup. She could have stayed on and worked through it as well though. It was her choice to resign.

So, in short, to defend her statement with (she's not wrong), is in fact not supported by the current evidence.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Because its a silly question and any instance of name given will result in either attempted rebuke, or refutation on where someone stands grounds.

Local former police chief Rod Knecht would be an example. Solid individual, exemplary record, but conflict suddenly, due to changes in personnel, and approach, of the Edmonton Police Commission.

JK Rowling would be a hilariously ironic example. Cancelled by the same living in fantasy generation she did so much to help create. Proof positive the world can turn on anybody and for any reason really.

Don Cherry. Not defending him, not defending the statement, but it was not unlike many others he'd been making for 30 or more years. What changed was the presence of Cancel Culture. With his boring sidekick, who owes his whole career to him, not defending him but helping bury him.

Wendy Mesley. For not even saying something on air, but in the confines of a not too discrete boardroom where instead the knives came out. I can only presumably think because somebody else was fishing for her job. I mean in todays CBC Barbara Frum would probably be fired for voicing honesty. RIP.

Last week in Edmonton a school trustee got punted for defending the use of Police in schools and citing carelessly that some of the problem is that some immigrant children from wartorn countries are predisposed to violence. (she's not wrong) Now heres the thing. Agree or disagree, the comment could have been contained. Instead it was hilited and raised to media profile.

Series of actors like Scarlet Johansson, Sarah Silverman, Dave Chapelle.

But as with any list what will occur immediately in response is jeering refutation of any list, and any individuals contained on a list. Thus completing the cycle of cancel culture in which individual can't even be defended without attack ensuing.

go

I'm not going to jeer. And what's wrong with refutation if the examples are bs?

Rod Knecht: Haven't seen anything about this one, would love to know more. Did a search and didn't find much.

Jk Rowling: People turned on her for transphobic comments that she continued to defend. Is your argument here that her fans should stay loyal to her? Her fans have been groaning at tons of her bullshit for the last couple years, including randomly posting "this character was secretly gay the whole time!".

Don Cherry: For him it was a long time coming and enough people finally got tired of it. He got away with the "Grandpa says crazy stuff sometimes and we just laugh about it" schtict for a long time and people finally got tired of it. And who cares if his sidekick didn't defend him. He said shitty things, should you stay loyal to someone, even if you disagree entirely with an action?

Wendy Medley: I mean someone was probably coming for her job, but in the end she was still casually f***ing used the n-word in a meeting. The CBC released the info themselves.

Cheryl Johner: The "comment could of been contained". It was a public meeting. You cant contain that otherwise. It was a racist comment full stop. What should of who watched that do, say "oh well she said something racist I should tell them to hide it so no one gets in trouble".

Now disagreeing with you on them isn't attacking you

 

[Senor Catface]

I am still hoping this is the end of Hollywood.

Yeah, can't wait to wait CBC movies all the time..

 

[Drivesaitl]

How has JK Rowling been cancelled? She has faced criticism from certain people, but she didn't back down, didn't delete her words, and seems to be plodding along just fine.

I think she has figured out this whole twitter thing, realizing that for the most part people will vent and rant, and then eventually get distracted by some new shiny thing to be outraged at, and then move on.

Regarding Cheryl Johner - saying she's not wrong in her assessment. Do you have evidence that refugee kids are more or less violent than other kids in the school system? She didn't provide any.

My son attended a public school for the past 3 years that was majority visible minority kids, with a huge number of them who came to Canada as refugees. I'd have to look up the stats, but I want to say the last time I checked it was 80% kids who are visible minorities. Last year I attended Remembrance Day ceremonies at the school and when the videos came up that showed scenes of war kids started to burst into tears. They have witnessed some really tough stuff. We had a kid in one of my son's classes that couldn't get home to fall classes on time because they were stuck in an area that was being bombed when they went home over the summer to visit family.

If you read this particular article Edmonton school trustee resigns over comments on refugee children and violence | Edmonton Journal they have some words from someone who has actually has some knowledge in this area and she said this in the article.



So Johner had every right to called out on her statements that were not supported by evidence. Were they racist? I personally doubt tat was the intent. They sure were harmful and baseless. Did she need to resign? I don't know. There may have been a better way to resolve the issue. But based on her apology and her actions, she clearly felt she was in the wrong, and that she was no longer suitable for the role she held. That was her choice. Was she under pressure from people? Yup. She could have stayed on and worked through it as well though. It was her choice to resign.

So, in short, to defend her statement with (she's not wrong), is in fact not supported by the current evidence.

Anna Kirova, her synopsis on UofA Department

immigrant and refugee integration, culturally and linguistically diverse children’s experiences in school, collaborative research with children, arts-based/digital photography based methodologies with vulnerable children, participatory action research, community- based participatory research, phenomenology, teacher education, comparative early childhood education, critical pedagogy, critical multiculturalism, intercultural early learning practices, play and pedagogy, social justice.

Is this objective source?

her livelihood is this matter. The board is wonky right now or I would post more in reply

 

[CycloneSweep]

bs When Trudeau was prancing about in Blackface at a College, or even in his tenure as a Drama teacher several of the attendees at that time were noting how inappropriate his attire and makeup was. It was inappropriate then. Its attempts at rewriting history, by those who would give such figures blanket excuses.

I could post any of several links here that would be inappropriate in context, regarding JT, who you would defend resolutely as "he didn't know any better" or "it wasn't any concern at the time"

Its the inconsistency of application and selective usage and attack that most people are spotting as incongruent.

I'll say this at every single occurence of "cancel culture". Look at the accused's reaction to being called out. Also look at how the person currently is.

If someone is called out for homophobic behavior in their past, apologizes, but is currently working to day get rid of gay marriage, then the apology is empty and hollow. In Trudeau's case I absolutely believe he should of stepped down. I also believe that if the Conservatives had even a decent leader they would of won the election easily but that's something else entirely

 

[SK13]

bs When Trudeau was prancing about in Blackface at a College, or even in his tenure as a Drama teacher several of the attendees at that time were noting how inappropriate his attire and makeup was. It was inappropriate then. Its attempts at rewriting history, by those who would give such figures blanket excuses.

I could post any of several links here that would be inappropriate in context, regarding JT, who you would defend resolutely as "he didn't know any better" or "it wasn't any concern at the time"

Its the inconsistency of application and selective usage and attack that most people are spotting as incongruent.

Then do it.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Anna Kirova, her synopsis on UofA Department

immigrant and refugee integration, culturally and linguistically diverse children’s experiences in school, collaborative research with children, arts-based/digital photography based methodologies with vulnerable children, participatory action research, community- based participatory research, phenomenology, teacher education, comparative early childhood education, critical pedagogy, critical multiculturalism, intercultural early learning practices, play and pedagogy, social justice.

Is this objective source?

her livelihood is this matter. The board is wonky right now or I would post more in reply

I mean it's her job to work with kids like this and look into this, who would know better. And okay say she is a bad source, do you have literally any source showing Edmonton refugee kids are violent more so than anyone else?

 

[doulos]

Anna Kirova, her synopsis on UofA Department

immigrant and refugee integration, culturally and linguistically diverse children’s experiences in school, collaborative research with children, arts-based/digital photography based methodologies with vulnerable children, participatory action research, community- based participatory research, phenomenology, teacher education, comparative early childhood education, critical pedagogy, critical multiculturalism, intercultural early learning practices, play and pedagogy, social justice.

Is this objective source?

her livelihood is this matter. The board is wonky right now or I would post more in reply

It appears she is an expert on this matter, yes. Seems like a good place to start when trying to find out information.

 

[AM]

People keep conflating negligence with intent

Negligence is intent if you do not use proper procedures.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Negligence is intent if you do not use proper procedures.

I mean it's literally not

 

[Drivesaitl]

I'm not going to jeer. And what's wrong with refutation if the examples are bs?

Rod Knecht: Haven't seen anything about this one, would love to know more. Did a search and didn't find much.

Jk Rowling: People turned on her for transphobic comments that she continued to defend. Is your argument here that her fans should stay loyal to her? Her fans have been groaning at tons of her bullshit for the last couple years, including randomly posting "this character was secretly gay the whole time!".

Don Cherry: For him it was a long time coming and enough people finally got tired of it. He got away with the "Grandpa says crazy stuff sometimes and we just laugh about it" schtict for a long time and people finally got tired of it. And who cares if his sidekick didn't defend him. He said shitty things, should you stay loyal to someone, even if you disagree entirely with an action?

Wendy Medley: I mean someone was probably coming for her job, but in the end she was still casually f***ing used the n-word in a meeting. The CBC released the info themselves.

Cheryl Johner: The "comment could of been contained". It was a public meeting. You cant contain that otherwise. It was a racist comment full stop. What should of who watched that do, say "oh well she said something racist I should tell them to hide it so no one gets in trouble".

Now disagreeing with you on them isn't attacking you

Mesley was not using the term as pejorative, she was not even using it in first term. she was quoting what somebody else had stated. Which apparently you can't do in a closed boardroom in CBC without being cancelled..

Rod Knecht was cancelled largely because of changes in the Police commission itself. His record of service was not going to be extended. Despite being exemplary. All his reviews to that point were positive from what has been stated. But a case of philosophical differences had emerged (I could go on a lot more and have had some personal interaction with the man and others that know what went down.)

What Johner stated is not racist, and it is not false. Unless a statement like people that have lived their whole lives in war torn violent countries and could be predisposed to problems, PTSD, and violence, is racist. It isn't false.

JK Rowling? Transphobic comment? That's labeling something that could be viewed many different ways, and thus justifying whatever response. That's an example of what I mean about explaining away cancel culture reaction and saying only those that deserve it get it. ​

Regardless, you stated that no specific names of any kind were brought forward. So now I brought some forward for consideration because you or anybody asked.

The problem with Cancel culture is it doesn't matter what anybody did or worked for their entire lives. Say one thing, just one wrong thing, and their career is over, or compromised. Surely you can see that being a problem.

 

[SK13]

Because its a silly question and any instance of name given will result in either attempted rebuke, or refutation on where someone stands grounds.

Local former police chief Rod Knecht would be an example. Solid individual, exemplary record, but conflict suddenly, due to changes in personnel, and approach, of the Edmonton Police Commission.

JK Rowling would be a hilariously ironic example. Cancelled by the same living in fantasy generation she did so much to help create. Proof positive the world can turn on anybody and for any reason really.

Don Cherry. Not defending him, not defending the statement, but it was not unlike many others he'd been making for 30 or more years. What changed was the presence of Cancel Culture. With his boring sidekick, who owes his whole career to him, not defending him but helping bury him.

Wendy Mesley. For not even saying something on air, but in the confines of a not too discrete boardroom where instead the knives came out. I can only presumably think because somebody else was fishing for her job. I mean in todays CBC Barbara Frum would probably be fired for voicing honesty. RIP.

Last week in Edmonton a school trustee got punted for defending the use of Police in schools and citing carelessly that some of the problem is that some immigrant children from wartorn countries are predisposed to violence. (she's not wrong) Now heres the thing. Agree or disagree, the comment could have been contained. Instead it was hilited and raised to media profile.

Series of actors like Scarlet Johansson, Sarah Silverman, Dave Chapelle.

But as with any list what will occur immediately in response is jeering refutation of any list, and any individuals contained on a list. Thus completing the cycle of cancel culture in which individual can't even be defended without attack ensuing.

go

lol please. "If I give you a list of people that cancel culture has canceled, you will point out that they are in no way canceled".

How sensitive are you that a mild criticism of a celebrity is cancel culture at work?

What changed for Cherry wasn't that cancel culture became a thing. I already gave you examples of people who got f***ing canceled decades ago for shit they merely said. What's changed is that good people have decided to stop allowing xenophobic opinions breathe as political or cultural disagreement. Everybody always knew Don Cherry sucked, that's why they put him on a seven second delay 15 years ago.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Outdoors and with masks. The effect was liking minimal in almost all cases. I don't think people can picture how much interaction occurs after reopening. Millions of people going about their business, having parties indoors, many in the USA acting like the virus doesn't exist because the leaders they worship tell them so. Talking hundreds of millions of interactions and chances to touch similar surfaces and the breath air in same immediate area every day. The protests are literally a drop in the bucket.

But, i do get why some of a certain political inclination down south are quick to blame everything on the protests.

IMO this is a weak stance. Last I saw California is getting hit hard and they are far from a Trump state. IMO at some point people have to take accountability for their own actions. Natural selection used to be a thing, if this virus were more lethal then a lot of people that are being very careless would get hit hard. I know that its the status quo to crap on the US, however what I read here for the most part Hawaii is far ahead of Alberta in terms of mask usage. I see people saying 50% in stores with a mask on, here on Maui its easily in the 90th percentile and is a surprise/rarity to see someone without a mask. People here tend to value their elders deeply as with the elders comes knowledge, experience, respect and for many working families, child care. When mask use was not a thing, I wrapped a shirt around my face when shopping. I dont need the government to tell me to breathe, chew when I eat or wipe my ass. I have a brain to think for myself ans so does everyone else that lives in a country where that doesnt amount to imprisonment or a bullet in your head.

 

[doulos]

What Johner stated is not racist, and it is not false. Unless a statement like people that have lived their whole lives in war torn violent countries and could be predisposed to problems, PTSD, and violence, is racist. It isn't false.

Feel free to show any evidence at all to back up your claim that these kids are more violent, thus needing to protect other kids in the schools from them. So far the only source I have found who has any legitimacy and looked at research on this has claimed otherwise. But maybe you have other sources. Remember, her line of thinking was that these kids were so much more violent that there needed to be extra protections put in place in schools because of this.

I agree that calling it a racist comment might not be accurate. Baseless and harmful is not a stretch.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Mesley was not using the term as pejorative, she was not even using it in first term. she was quoting what somebody else had stated. Which apparently you can't do in a closed boardroom in CBC without being cancelled..

Rod Knecht was cancelled largely because of changes in the Police commission itself. His record of service was not going to be extended. Despite being exemplary. All his reviews to that point were positive from what has been stated. But a case of philosophical differences had emerged (I could go on a lot more and have had some personal interaction with the man and others that know what went down.)

What Johner stated is not racist, and it is not false. Unless a statement like people that have lived their whole lives in war torn violent countries and could be predisposed to problems, PTSD, and violence, is racist. It isn't false.

JK Rowling? Transphobic comment? That's labeling something that could be viewed many different ways, and thus justifying whatever response. That's an example of what I mean about explaining away cancel culture reaction and saying only those that deserve it get it. ​

Regardless, you stated that no specific names of any kind were brought forward. So now I brought some forward for consideration because you or anybody asked.

The problem with Cancel culture is it doesn't matter what anybody did or worked for their entire lives. Say one thing, just one wrong thing, and their career is over, or compromised. Surely you can see that being a problem.

Medley wasn't cancelled. She was disciplined by the CBC for it. Doesn't matter how you are using it. If you aren't black you don't use the n-word period. It's not a hard concept.

Who cancelled Rod? If this was a thing I'm sure I could find some tweets or some article or something. Was it just city council letting him move on because of differences?

JK Rowling. The trans community took offense to the comments. What she said has been used for ages to call trans women not real. If it wasn't a big deal you wouldn't have the literal main cast of the movies calling her out, and it wasn't the first time she said shit like that. She literally tweeted praise for Stephen King. Shortly later King posted that Trans women are women and she immediately blocked him and deleted her praise for him. Her comments weren't taken out of context.

Being a public figure is a privilege. While in that privilege you should be held to a high standard.

I don't agree with say you or me losing our jobs for saying shitty things in the past. Actors, musicians, celebrities and politicians though? Absolutely should be held accountable for what they say and do. It comes with the territory of those professions.

 

[CycloneSweep]

IMO this is a weak stance. Last I saw California is getting hit hard and they are far from a Trump state. IMO at some point people have to take accountability for their own actions. Natural selection used to be a thing, if this virus were more lethal then a lot of people that are being very careless would get hit hard. I know that its the status quo to crap on the US, however what I read here for the most part Hawaii is far ahead of Alberta in terms of mask usage. I see people saying 50% in stores with a mask on, here on Maui its easily in the 90th percentile and is a surprise/rarity to see someone without a mask. People here tend to value their elders deeply as with the elders comes knowledge, experience, respect and for many working families, child care. When mask use was not a thing, I wrapped a shirt around my face when shopping. I dont need the government to tell me to breathe, chew when I eat or wipe my ass. I have a brain to think for myself ans so does everyone else that lives in a country where that doesnt amount to imprisonment or a bullet in your head.

I will say when it comes to public health and things like viruses, especially viruses, you can do whatever you can do be personally safe, but the asshole who thinks everything doesn't matter except him not following recommendations puts you and everyone else at risk.

California is full of selfish people. They and New York are also have a very high population density so them getting hard makes a ton of sense.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

If anything the protests proved that masks are effective.

Its baffling to me how many people scream open back up! And one of the responses is, okay if we all wear masks we can open up more and limit the harm of Covid. But apparently that's way to much. They rather people die than have to have their "rights to not wear a mask" infringed upon

IF it is shown that the protests didnt lead to massive transmission it would show that mask use and specifically being outdoors really slows the spread of COVID. Many people had masks but many did not too. I dont think that we will ever know how many people likely fell ill due to the protests. I just hope that they dont keep continuing to protest during a pandemic, hopefully the police can cut the shit for at least a while.

 

[CycloneSweep]

IF it is shown that the protests didnt lead to massive transmission it would show that mask use and specifically being outdoors really slows the spread of COVID. Many people had masks but many did not too. I dont think that we will ever know how many people likely fell ill due to the protests. I just hope that they dont keep continuing to protest during a pandemic, hopefully the police can cut the shit for at least a while.

I feel the protests will definitely call down if the police stop using police brutality to counter the police brutality protests. Places where the police have treated the protestors with restraint seem to have their protests numbers drop. The minute you tear gas a crowd or start shooting rubber bullets at people you just increase the amount of people they will protest.

On mask use, Florida which opened up beaches and shit are seeing a massive influx of cases and tons of people aren't wearing masks there. Outside + masks = great. Outside - mask = still bad

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Feel free to show any evidence at all to back up your claim that these kids are more violent, thus needing to protect other kids in the schools from them. So far the only source I have found who has any legitimacy and looked at research on this has claimed otherwise. But maybe you have other sources. Remember, her line of thinking was that these kids were so much more violent that there needed to be extra protections put in place in schools because of this.

I agree that calling it a racist comment might not be accurate. Baseless and harmful is not a stretch.

I maybe wrong but I have heard that children that come from violent homes tend to be more violent. I have heard this as a defense for those that do not agree with spanking kids. These poor kids have to go through hell and things that thankfully most children in our countries dont have to. There will be baggage there one way or another and they may need many years of therapy to deal with what they have faced as children.

 

[Drivesaitl]

It appears she is an expert on this matter, yes. Seems like a good place to start when trying to find out information.

She's a self described expert stating a falsehood that any literature she's seen makes no connection between trauma and violence. I could cite endless studies that say otherwise. Heres a start;

Trauma Exposure and PTSD Symptoms Associate with Violence in Inner City Civilians

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.n...zpr2DIZShg__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA


https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(19)30077-5/fulltext

The literature on connections between war torn trauma, psychiatric problems PTSD, violent acting out in children of refugees are endless.

 

[PerformanceMcOil]

IMO this is a weak stance. Last I saw California is getting hit hard and they are far from a Trump state. IMO at some point people have to take accountability for their own actions. Natural selection used to be a thing, if this virus were more lethal then a lot of people that are being very careless would get hit hard. I know that its the status quo to crap on the US, however what I read here for the most part Hawaii is far ahead of Alberta in terms of mask usage. I see people saying 50% in stores with a mask on, here on Maui its easily in the 90th percentile and is a surprise/rarity to see someone without a mask. People here tend to value their elders deeply as with the elders comes knowledge, experience, respect and for many working families, child care. When mask use was not a thing, I wrapped a shirt around my face when shopping. I dont need the government to tell me to breathe, chew when I eat or wipe my ass. I have a brain to think for myself ans so does everyone else that lives in a country where that doesnt amount to imprisonment or a bullet in your head.

I think there are many factors at work when it comes to COVID in both Canada and the US and I agree it isn't fair to compare the two countries directly. Plus this whole thing is more marathon than sprint, so it is a bit early for anyone to be celebrating.

However, I think you are greatly underestimating the influence a demagogue can have on people's thinking. Some people *want* to believe in something, even if all evidence points towards that something being a load of BS. That is why the spread of misinformation is so dangerous.

 

[CycloneSweep]

I maybe wrong but I have heard that children that come from violent homes tend to be more violent. I have heard this as a defense for those that do not agree with spanking kids. These poor kids have to go through hell and things that thankfully most children in our countries dont have to. There will be baggage there one way or another and they may need many years of therapy to deal with what they have faced as children.

That's entirely true. The argument though is that refugee kids are the reason we need cops in schools in Edmonton to protect non refugee kids from them. Which there is t a single shread of proof that it's true. Refugee kids absolutely have issues, but most of it is ptsd, depression and fear. The only study anyone posted here shows in Edmonton the kids rarely turn to anger and violence

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I feel the protests will definitely call down if the police stop using police brutality to counter the police brutality protests. Places where the police have treated the protestors with restraint seem to have their protests numbers drop. The minute you tear gas a crowd or start shooting rubber bullets at people you just increase the amount of people they will protest.

On mask use, Florida which opened up beaches and shit are seeing a massive influx of cases and tons of people aren't wearing masks there. Outside + masks = great. Outside - mask = still bad

Beach use is huge here and the cases are still low. Beaches tend to be windy because of the wind coming off the ocean. If they arent using masks inside that is IMO a lot bigger issue. If the protests yielded low transmission in your mind I dont see how the beaches would be any different.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Then do it.

It goes directly into politics which is not the purpose of the thread. You've probably seen the articles, most people have. Google it.

 

[doulos]

I maybe wrong but I have heard that children that come from violent homes tend to be more violent. I have heard this as a defense for those that do not agree with spanking kids. These poor kids have to go through hell and things that thankfully most children in our countries dont have to. There will be baggage there one way or another and they may need many years of therapy to deal with what they have faced as children.

Baggage does not mean they are so violent that there needs to be protection in schools.

Also, kids from violent homes (I don't know the validity of the claim you made either to be honest. It could be true or not, I am unsure) and kids who are refugees in violent countries, are not the same thing.