OT: Coronavirus XVI: Hey Covid-19, Piss Off Already

[CycloneSweep]

She's a self described expert stating a falsehood that any literature she's seen makes no connection between trauma and violence. I could cite endless studies that say otherwise. Heres a start;

Trauma Exposure and PTSD Symptoms Associate with Violence in Inner City Civilians

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/46821786/s0145-2134_2896_2900176-720160627-29200-wl191i.pdf?1467012261=&response-content-disposition=inline;+filename=Refugee_children_in_Sweden_Post-Traumati.pdf&Expires=1593544176&Signature=YNGanG1~ttYvUsmPthKD7Cdl~86RZcbmQ3blrGULZdE4vWpS9dBdNQTKmAFghbKUkCD0nobirgWnhd428D11OsPjt7IcFxeo9iOvc7fEMYYA9K3lHoSZbn12JnBfSNR8MIQ~E11Su9e4eVVcrD3bH4kkrJvO5b1AciFdAXVIQgNxTDUbZewjE1eUBNt8Ackv0IN5kt9Wl2CrYUuO-gYVfL~EvMN6UYm-LXn2kgXmrbDLP3UF-QCpMCsaGFwtacJ2KeGCy1wFxCK-cISdwY1gYLOkcU8JsBEtIM5IB5GkFIGuZsYTllEOsybWDx6xsGyLkz8L-BS6etU3zpr2DIZShg__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA


https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(19)30077-5/fulltext

The literature on connections between war torn trauma, psychiatric problems PTSD, violent acting out in children of refugees are endless.

Okay with that first link.

That is detailing ptsd and trauma on inner city kids. The difference between that and refugee kids is that the inner city kids are still in the environment where the trauma occured in most cases. Refugee kids are not. PTSD issues are much more severe when you are in the same place the trauma occured.

The other two detail that yes refugee kids are prone to ptsd. No where in there I see the link that they are violent

If it's obviously true that refugee kids are violent and our non refugee kids need armed cops in the school to protect them, we should have at least one shread of evidence that it is true

 

[CycloneSweep]

Beach use is huge here and the cases are still low. Beaches tend to be windy because of the wind coming off the ocean. If they arent using masks inside that is IMO a lot bigger issue. If the protests yielded low transmission in your mind I dont see how the beaches would be any different.

Hawaii is a very different case as you guys are kindaaa isolated overthere

 

[PerformanceMcOil]

The literature on connections between war torn trauma, psychiatric problems PTSD, violent acting out in children of refugees are endless.

And yet, none of the papers you cited actually come to that conclusion.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I think there are many factors at work when it comes to COVID in both Canada and the US and I agree it isn't fair to compare the two countries directly. Plus this whole thing is more marathon than sprint, so it is a bit early for anyone to be celebrating.

However, I think you are greatly underestimating the influence a demagogue can have on people's thinking. Some people *want* to believe in something, even if all evidence points towards that something being a load of BS. That is why the spread of misinformation is so dangerous.

So what are you supposed to do? Spoon feed the masses? Unless someone is severely mentally handicapped ignorance is curable. I get that whatever Trump, Trudeau, Biden, Pelosi, etc. says they will have people eating out of their hands but we cant just dumb down everything for everyone else that can thing for themselves. Misinformation is also in the eye of the beholder as there is bias in reporting on both sides IMO.

That's entirely true. The argument though is that refugee kids are the reason we need cops in schools in Edmonton to protect non refugee kids from them. Which there is t a single shread of proof that it's true. Refugee kids absolutely have issues, but most of it is ptsd, depression and fear. The only study anyone posted here shows in Edmonton the kids rarely turn to anger and violence

I would assume that there has to be some basis to this to justify the expense to the taxpayers.

 

[Drivesaitl]

lol please. "If I give you a list of people that cancel culture has canceled, you will point out that they are in no way canceled".

How sensitive are you that a mild criticism of a celebrity is cancel culture at work?

What changed for Cherry wasn't that cancel culture became a thing. I already gave you examples of people who got f***ing canceled decades ago for shit they merely said. What's changed is that good people have decided to stop allowing xenophobic opinions breathe as political or cultural disagreement. Everybody always knew Don Cherry sucked, that's why they put him on a seven second delay 15 years ago.

Thanks for exhibiting exactly the nature of reply I predicted. Not that I'm surprised in the slightest.

But just responding. Yes, a form of excommunication has always existed. But surely you can see that in an era where statements are suddenly all public realm (all made on any social media) are resulting in much more.

It could take a long time for people to respond, to self limit what they communicate online. It seems a lot of people, ironically a lot of politicians, of all stripes, have had a lot of difficulty with this. A lot of media people stars, athletes, you name it. Theres a lot of stupid going on, lot of stupid things being stated.

Should one or a series of statements define a person? Should they summarily be fired on that basis? These are useful questions.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Thanks for exhibiting exactly the nature of reply I predicted. Not that I'm surprised in the slightest.

But just responding. Yes, a form of excommunication has always existed. But surely you can see that in an era where statements are suddenly all public realm (all made on any social media) are resulting in much more.

It could take a long time for people to respond, to self limit what they communicate online. It seems a lot of people, ironically a lot of politicians, of all stripes, have had a lot of difficulty with this. A lot of media people stars, athletes, you name it. Theres a lot of stupid going on, lot of stupid things being stated.

Should one or a series of statements define a person? Should they summarily be fired on that basis? These are useful questions.

And people are almost never fired on that basis alone. As has happened always either further looks into the person shows it's not an isolated incident. The football player here was probably being let go anyways so it was an easy decision.

Like I said before if you have the privilege to be a celebrity or public figure, you absolutely need to have some tact in your public statements. You represent your company publically and being a racist, homophobe or outright bigot definitely sets you up to be let go.

Here is the thing, what someone is willing to say publically is far less than what someone is willing to say privately. If someone is willing to publically scream the n-word, their private words are much worse. So yeah it can tell you a lot about a person

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Hawaii is a very different case as you guys are kindaaa isolated overthere

More so than many other places but it doesnt take many cases to start an outbreak and the beach behavior hasnt changed much from the start until now at least for surfers.

Baggage does not mean they are so violent that there needs to be protection in schools.

Also, kids from violent homes (I don't know the validity of the claim you made either to be honest. It could be true or not, I am unsure) and kids who are refugees in violent countries, are not the same thing.

I cant say one way or another.

Not the same but its the closest comparable that I can think of due to there being violence in both cases.

 

[CycloneSweep]

More so than many other places but it doesnt take many cases to start an outbreak and the beach behavior hasnt changed much from the start until now at least for surfers.



I cant say one way or another.

Not the same but its the closest comparable that I can think of due to there being violence in both cases.

The difference is kids in violent homes often are still there. Constant trauma reminders and probably reoccurring trauma. Refugee kids are in a whole new country away from the violence. They can begin to heal and still have the PTSD and trauma.

 

[PerformanceMcOil]

That's entirely true. The argument though is that refugee kids are the reason we need cops in schools in Edmonton to protect non refugee kids from them. Which there is t a single shread of proof that it's true. Refugee kids absolutely have issues, but most of it is ptsd, depression and fear. The only study anyone posted here shows in Edmonton the kids rarely turn to anger and violence

No no, better to get them used to the corrections system early, rather than having a bit of empathy, realizing that they are *children* and trying to better their lives.

 

[Drivesaitl]

And yet, none of the papers you cited actually come to that conclusion.

But they do.

Remember that the illustrious "expert" Anna Kirova, is stating that she had researched the literature and found no connection of any kind. A specious statement borne out of defending her own livelihood.

Of course she's stating what she is because its the defense of her position and all bits of inclusion. This is a person that works for inclusion stating that there have been no difficulties with inclusion, but who has her job DUE to difficulty with inclusion. Break it down, lol

 

[CycloneSweep]

But they do.

Remember that the illustrious "expert" Anna K, is stating that she had researched the literature and found no connection of any kind. A specious statement borne out of defending her own livelihood.

Of course she's stating what she is because its the defense of her position and all bits of inclusion. This is a person that works for inclusion stating that there have been no difficulties with inclusion, but who has her job DUE to difficulty with inclusion. Break it down, lol

They don't. You have 2 that say refugee kids are prone to PTSD. You have one that says inner city kids with PTSD can be more violent.

If it was in defense in her job she could just hype herself up and say "these kids have been prone to violence but when they are worked with we can eliminate that". But she doesn't, she lists all their other problems though.

I guess when a doctor tells me I have cancer i should doubt him and ask my optometrist to get a non biased answer. Doctor needs to keep his job after all.

Brake it down, lol

 

[doulos]

She's a self described expert stating a falsehood that any literature she's seen makes no connection between trauma and violence. I could cite endless studies that say otherwise. Heres a start;

Trauma Exposure and PTSD Symptoms Associate with Violence in Inner City Civilians

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/46821786/s0145-2134_2896_2900176-720160627-29200-wl191i.pdf?1467012261=&response-content-disposition=inline;+filename=Refugee_children_in_Sweden_Post-Traumati.pdf&Expires=1593544176&Signature=YNGanG1~ttYvUsmPthKD7Cdl~86RZcbmQ3blrGULZdE4vWpS9dBdNQTKmAFghbKUkCD0nobirgWnhd428D11OsPjt7IcFxeo9iOvc7fEMYYA9K3lHoSZbn12JnBfSNR8MIQ~E11Su9e4eVVcrD3bH4kkrJvO5b1AciFdAXVIQgNxTDUbZewjE1eUBNt8Ackv0IN5kt9Wl2CrYUuO-gYVfL~EvMN6UYm-LXn2kgXmrbDLP3UF-QCpMCsaGFwtacJ2KeGCy1wFxCK-cISdwY1gYLOkcU8JsBEtIM5IB5GkFIGuZsYTllEOsybWDx6xsGyLkz8L-BS6etU3zpr2DIZShg__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA


https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(19)30077-5/fulltext

The literature on connections between war torn trauma, psychiatric problems PTSD, violent acting out in children of refugees are endless.

Fantastic, you've now put in more effort than Johner did when she made her comments.

I'll have to take a look at these studies to see exactly what they say. At a cursory glance the first one is the most interesting to me, though it is interesting that it deals with inner city kids who are still in the inner city. I'll try and read it in more depth when I have even more time.

The second one discusses kids who have PTSD from their experiences with organized violence, and doesn't actually discuss the kids themselves being violent. Now, you would have to then make another deep dive into connections between PTSD in school children, and whether that leads to an increase in violent behaviour once they are removed from their traumatic experiences, and whether having cops in a school is the best way to proect them and their peers.

The third study is speaking of children of parents who have PTSD and how they have an increased risk of psychiatric morbidity. That's not speaking about refugee children themselves being more violent.

I'm telling you. Go spend some time with these kids. They are some of the best kids you will ever meet. My son has made fantastic friends and the teachers love them dearly. Violence from these kids is not at all what they are concerned about. But again, that's only my anecdotal experience, and is not good evidence.

SO what we have is Johner making a blanket statement, backing it up with zero facts, and then realizing she screwed up royally and resigning. To me it looks like pretty much everyone is happy other than the virtue signalling anti-cancel crowd.

 

[PerformanceMcOil]

So what are you supposed to do?

Hold people, especially those in the public eye, accountable for telling the truth. I don't see anything partisan about that and it should be a standard that everyone believes in, since it is the essence of a workable democracy.

 

[doulos]

They don't. You have 2 that say refugee kids are prone to PTSD. You have one that says inner city kids with PTSD can be more violent.

If it was in defense in her job she could just hype herself up and say "these kids have been prone to violence but when they are worked with we can eliminate that". But she doesn't, she lists all their other problems though.

I guess when a doctor tells me I have cancer i should doubt him and ask my optometrist to get a non biased answer. Doctor needs to keep his job after all.

Brake it down, lol

It's such an odd way to view things. It's like claiming anyone who spends their career researching a topic is suddenly ruled out from speaking out on that topic because of bias. But then, I guess that is what is happening with covid. We have people claiming that you can't listen to the health experts for very similar lines of reasoning. Blows my mind.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Fantastic, you've now put in more effort than Johner did when she made her comments.

I'll have to take a look at these studies to see exactly what they say. At a cursory glance the first one is the most interesting to me, though it is interesting that it deals with inner city kids who are still in the inner city. I'll try and read it in more depth when I have even more time.

The second one discusses kids who have PTSD from their experiences with organized violence, and doesn't actually discuss the kids themselves being violent. Now, you would have to then make another deep dive into connections between PTSD in school children, and whether that leads to an increase in violent behaviour once they are removed from their traumatic experiences, and whether having cops in a school is the best way to proect them and their peers.

The third study is speaking of children of parents who have PTSD and how they have an increased risk of psychiatric morbidity. That's not speaking about refugee children themselves being more violent.

I'm telling you. Go spend some time with these kids. They are some of the best kids you will ever meet. My son has made fantastic friends and the teachers love them dearly. Violence from these kids is not at all what they are concerned about. But again, that's only my anecdotal experience, and is not good evidence.

SO what we have is Johner making a blanket statement, backing it up with zero facts, and then realizing she screwed up royally and resigning. To me it looks like pretty much everyone is happy other than the virtue signalling anti-cancel crowd.

A personal anectdote.
Refugee kids are more likely to be bullied. There are also a bunch of articles on that too. The only time I have ever seen violence out of a refugee kid is them defending themselves. A refugee kid at my brother's school was getting bullied, kids started throwing rocks and pelting him and one said "you're just lucky these aren't bullets". Kid snapped and attacked the kid back.

 

[oobga]

IMO this is a weak stance. Last I saw California is getting hit hard and they are far from a Trump state. IMO at some point people have to take accountability for their own actions. Natural selection used to be a thing, if this virus were more lethal then a lot of people that are being very careless would get hit hard. I know that its the status quo to crap on the US, however what I read here for the most part Hawaii is far ahead of Alberta in terms of mask usage. I see people saying 50% in stores with a mask on, here on Maui its easily in the 90th percentile and is a surprise/rarity to see someone without a mask. People here tend to value their elders deeply as with the elders comes knowledge, experience, respect and for many working families, child care. When mask use was not a thing, I wrapped a shirt around my face when shopping. I dont need the government to tell me to breathe, chew when I eat or wipe my ass. I have a brain to think for myself ans so does everyone else that lives in a country where that doesnt amount to imprisonment or a bullet in your head.

There is carelessness and there is defiance. I definitely agree lots of people are letting their guard down, or living with a false sense of security. But there are also many people that are outright defiant against measures to stop spread, and they likely will play a big part in the spread going on and on endlessly until there is a vaccine. At least the people just being careless have a shot to be convinced to be careful if it's clear the virus is closing in around them.

It's great that Maui has done so well, but there is certainly an advantage to being islands that other areas don't have. I don't think Cali is immune to having large amounts of people out of their 40M acting defiantly against distancing measures. One of many of their citizens big heroes Elon Musk ranted endlessly about how COVID-19 is not a big deal and lockdowns are stupid. They also have the big disadvantage of population density. I don't think some states seeing even bigger per-capita spikes of cases can use that same excuse.

Anyways, maybe my comment was a bit out of place to take a shot at people that definitely are out there giving the finger to putting any effort in stopping spread. I don't think I'm completely off base. We clearly see leaders in certain states obsessed with minimizing the impact of the virus to force through reopening plans. And higher up there is clearly someone that wants everyone to just power through to get jobs and stock market numbers back to February levels for an election. There are not many places in the 1st world that have these kinds of dynamics among the top leaders competing against trying to create a unified message across a country to take COVID-19 seriously and get spread under control.

 

[Drivesaitl]

And people are almost never fired on that basis alone. As has happened always either further looks into the person shows it's not an isolated incident. The football player here was probably being let go anyways so it was an easy decision.

Like I said before if you have the privilege to be a celebrity or public figure, you absolutely need to have some tact in your public statements. You represent your company publically and being a racist, homophobe or outright bigot definitely sets you up to be let go.

Here is the thing, what someone is willing to say publically is far less than what someone is willing to say privately. If someone is willing to publically scream the n-word, their private words are much worse. So yeah it can tell you a lot about a person

Virtually everything is public right now. THAT is the difference.

The late teen having a tantrum in their room mad at something in say 1995 would be saying something to their friends on the phone about their dipshit parents grounding her, how she had a fight with that dipshit teacher, then say something stupid on social media about some hot button topic while bent out of shape.

That same person does it now and its all online, all recorded, all possible to come back at her in 10yrs if she chooses some position in the public realm, or even if not. The kid is also suspended from school because somebody alerts the school...

I do feel sorry for younger generations so encased in social media. Everything you do, say, write can come back at you and does. Time will exhibit more of that. There was an NDP colleague that had to sit out for awhile due to stuff she had posted and stated online while a still immature young adult. I mean it was really stupid stuff, and I sure wouldn't vote for her. But public recoil, concerns, Notley had to do something.

Whether one defends a JT or not the new realization is that a lot of private is public. We have to be on, and alert at all times. We have to make sure we don't fall, at all times.

In other threads you speak of compassion. But apparently not if somebody makes a poor statement.

 

[PerformanceMcOil]

But they do.

Remember that the illustrious "expert" Anna Kirova, is stating that she had researched the literature and found no connection of any kind. A specious statement borne out of defending her own livelihood.

Of course she's stating what she is because its the defense of her position and all bits of inclusion. This is a person that works for inclusion stating that there have been no difficulties with inclusion, but who has her job DUE to difficulty with inclusion. Break it down, lol

I don't know who Anna Kirova is, and TBH I don't give a crap. Your thesis is that refugee children in Edmonton schools are excessively violent. You said there are mounds of data to support this and provided exactly none.

Give me some data about how violent refugee children are, relative to non-refugee children, with some nice error bars, and then we can discuss if a police response is, in fact, needed to control the out of control violence.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I don't know who Anna Kirova is, and TBH I don't give a crap. Your thesis is that refugee children in Edmonton schools are excessively violent. You said there are mounds of data to support this and provided exactly none.

Give me some data about how violent refugee children are, relative to non-refugee children, with some nice error bars, and then we can discuss if a police response is, in fact, needed to control the out of control violence.

At no point did I make the bolded "thesis" that you so falsely attribute.

if all you can do is strawman I'm not interested.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Virtually everything is public right now. THAT is the difference.

The late teen having a tantrum in their room mad at something in say 1995 would be saying something to their friends on the phone about their dipshit parents grounding her, how she had a fight with that dipshit teacher, then say something stupid on social media about some hot button topic while bent out of shape.

That same person does it now and its all online, all recorded, all possible to come back at her in 10yrs if she chooses some position in the public realm, or even if not. The kid is also suspended from school because somebody alerts the school...

I do feel sorry for younger generations so encased in social media. Everything you do, say, write can come back at you and does. Time will exhibit more of that. There was an NDP colleague that had to sit out for awhile due to stuff she had posted and stated online while a still immature young adult. I mean it was really stupid stuff, and I sure wouldn't vote for her. But public recoil, concerns, Notley had to do something.

Whether one defends a JT or not the new realization is that a lot of private is public. We have to be on, and alert at all times. We have to make sure we don't fall, at all times.

In other threads you speak of compassion. But apparently not if somebody makes a poor statement.

I do have compassion for people who make poor statements in the past. Even poor statements now. I have said numerous times that their reaction to being called out is huge.

Let's say Connor McDavid says "Black people are lazy". Now that's a pretty shit comment, I'd throw flack at him. People call him out. If his response is "No screw off. Black people are absolutely lazy all of you are just trying to shut me up because it's the truth", absolutely f*** that guy. I'd be embarrassed to have him represent the city I live in.

If he then goes "I'm sorry for my comments they were absolutely out of line. I won't say them again" or if they are in the last he says "I apologize for how I acted when I was younger I was young and dumb. I have grown since then and I am no longer that person." I'm still mad but he can say.

Saying dumb shit is one thing, defending your dumb shit is another.

I feel bad for the older generation who is terrified for losing their job do to things they say and do.

 

[PerformanceMcOil]

At no point did I make the bolded "thesis" that you so falsely attribute.

if all you can do is strawman I'm not interested.

"The literature on connections between war torn trauma, psychiatric problems PTSD, violent acting out in children of refugees are endless. "

So yeah, doesn't mention Edmonton specifically, but I feel like there is a bit of context here. If you aren't saying that refugee children tend to violence, what were you trying to say?

 

[Drivesaitl]

They don't. You have 2 that say refugee kids are prone to PTSD. You have one that says inner city kids with PTSD can be more violent.

If it was in defense in her job she could just hype herself up and say "these kids have been prone to violence but when they are worked with we can eliminate that". But she doesn't, she lists all their other problems though.

I guess when a doctor tells me I have cancer i should doubt him and ask my optometrist to get a non biased answer. Doctor needs to keep his job after all.

Brake it down, lol

I sure wouldn't draw a straight line comparing Medical Doctors with long established expertise, and usefulness with self appointed made up titles like "Inclusion specialist" "Gender sensitivity advisor" and "Custodial engineer" With apology to garbage collectors who at least serve a clear and useful purpose.

 

[CycloneSweep]

I sure wouldn't draw a straight line comparing Medical Doctors with long established expertise, and usefulness with self appointed made up titles like "Inclusion specialist" "Gender sensitivity advisor" and "Custodial engineer" With apology to garbage collectors who at least serve a clear and useful purpose.

How are those made up titles. She is a specialist of inclusion. She is an advisor on gender sensitivity. Hockey Player is a made up title to by that odd logic.

 

[Drivesaitl]

"The literature on connections between war torn trauma, psychiatric problems PTSD, violent acting out in children of refugees are endless. "

So yeah, doesn't mention Edmonton specifically, but I feel like there is a bit of context here. If you aren't saying that refugee children tend to violence, what were you trying to say?

Poster admits to strawman, has admitted to it before, continues to engage, continues to expect me to reply. Thats about as much as you're getting unless you want to apologize.

 

[PerformanceMcOil]

I do have compassion for people who make poor statements in the past. Even poor statements now. I have said numerous times that their reaction to being called out is huge.

Let's say Connor McDavid says "Black people are lazy". Now that's a pretty shit comment, I'd throw flack at him. People call him out. If his response is "No screw off. Black people are absolutely lazy all of you are just trying to shut me up because it's the truth", absolutely f*** that guy. I'd be embarrassed to have him represent the city I live in.

If he then goes "I'm sorry for my comments they were absolutely out of line. I won't say them again" or if they are in the last he says "I apologize for how I acted when I was younger I was young and dumb. I have grown since then and I am no longer that person." I'm still mad but he can say.

Saying dumb shit is one thing, defending your dumb shit is another.

I feel bad for the older generation who is terrified for losing their job do to things they say and do.

Yeah, there are basically three kinds of people. All of them say dumb shit at times. One group of them, mean the dumb shit but are smart enough to 'read the room'. The next group, didn't mean harm when they said their dumb shit, and are actually sorry that they did harm. The third group meant the dumb shit and are offended that they aren't allowed to say dumb shit, whatever the effect on other's.

The people that are getting in trouble are the ones that are doubling down, or that did irredeemable things.