HF Habs: 2019 Montreal Canadiens Training Camp Part 3: The Final Countdown

[Kriss E]

Yes, and everyone would take Crosby, McDavid and Mackinnon over Bergeron.... And yet...

Right..so speak to me when Gallagher is a shoe in as a future HoF. Kinda proved my point.
Also, Bergeron putting in 50ish pt is more of a career low than a career high.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Danault produced like a top-6 center without the PP time. I rather see him as a 2C though, because he does not have the ability to carry a team on his back like most 1Cs. But I certainly won't crap on him for having a style that is not too spectacular. For that matter Suzuki is not that spectacular either, but I will care about what he produces, not how many oohs and ahs he gets.

he is producing like the very best #1C in the league 5on5... so what are you talking about here ??


I mean that's pretty much the very first thing you had to say to prop him "he's top 5vs5" or something...



but now, it's all "he's a 2C" or "he can't carry linemates like the best"... really ?? why don't you tell me that's he's among the best again ?? he has the stats for it you know...

 

[BaseballCoach]

I don't know of anyone who'd mention ''elite'' including guys scoring around 50pts. This is not a knock on Gallagher, he's just not in that upper echelon. If you take all forwards, he's 90th in terms of points, he's 109th if you take ppg ratio of guys with at least 40gp.
Looking at only RW, he's 23rd, taking in ppg, he's 32nd.

I mean, not exactly what I consider elite at the NHL level.

I'd say Gallagher is a first line RW, but not elite. Ideally he is your second best RW if you want to really contend, and with Caufield and Suzuki around, there are two chances for that to happen.

 

[BaseballCoach]

he is producing like the very best #1C in the league 5on5... so what are you talking about here ??


I mean that's pretty much the very first thing you had to say to prop him "he's top 5vs5" or something...



but now, it's all "he's a 2C" or "he can't carry linemates like the best"... really ?? why don't you tell me that's he's among the best again ?? he has the stats for it you know...

It comes down to personal judgment. To me, Bobby Smith was a clear 1C even if he was rarely top-10 in a 21-team league. An alpha male player able to score in the playoffs and not needing a better C than him to take a load off. Koivu in his best years was a 1C. He had the willingness and ability to control the puck.

Danault is a solid player, able to produce off the counter-attack or the forecheck, and well above average defensively, but not the puck magnet that Smith or other first-line centers on contending teams are. With the right overall roster, you might be able to win with Danault as your 2C, and even more likely if he is your 3C behind Domi and KK some day soon.

Danault's presence did not stop Domi from racking up 72 points last year, nor SHOULD his presence stop Kotkaniemi from getting better as he hits 20-21 years of age. If anyone is worried that Clod Chu-Rien will overplay Danault even AFTER the proof is in that there are two centres better than him, then stop dissing Danault, and join the calls for a coaching change instead.

 

[habsfan891]

So by 5pm today either a kid gets sent down or a trade is made right? Just want to make sure i have the deadline right.

 

[Adam Michaels]

So by 5pm today either a kid gets sent down or a trade is made right? Just want to make sure i have the deadline right.

Yup. Teams need to be roster and cap compliant by 5PM ET. So as you say, either one of the kids get sent to Laval who do not require waivers (Suzuki, Poehling, Fleury, Mete & Kotkaniemi). Or there is a trade.

Either way, they have one player extra on the roster as we speak.

 

[ECWHSWI]

It comes down to personal judgment. To me, Bobby Smith was a clear 1C even if he was rarely top-10 in a 21-team league. An alpha male player able to score in the playoffs and not needing a better C than him to take a load off. Koivu in his best years was a 1C. He had the willingness and ability to control the puck.

Danault is a solid player, able to produce off the counter-attack or the forecheck, and well above average defensively, but not the puck magnet that Smith or other first-line centers on contending teams are. With the right overall roster, you might be able to win with Danault as your 2C, and even more likely if he is your 3C behind Domi and KK some day soon.

so what you're saying is, the "5vs5" argument you and others love to bring is B.S.

 

[BaseballCoach]

so what you're saying is, the "5vs5" argument you and others love to bring is B.S.

Not at all. Strong and fairly consistent 5 on 5 play is exactly what you want from your 2C and ideally your 3C.

If his results are better than what some teams get from their 1C, that is THEIR problem, and a bonus for us.

 

[habsfan891]

Thanks do you know off hand if any teams are still over the cap and have to make a trade?

 

[Kriss E]

I'd say Gallagher is a first line RW, but not elite. Ideally he is your second best RW if you want to really contend, and with Caufield and Suzuki around, there are two chances for that to happen.

Ya..sure..I have no problem saying Gallagher can be a top liner. Maybe on the bottom scale but hey, it's fine. I just would not put him in the ''Elite'' group and I certainly do not think that makes me a hater.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Yup. Teams need to be roster and cap compliant by 5PM ET. So as you say, either one of the kids get sent to Laval who do not require waivers (Suzuki, Poehling, Fleury, Mete & Kotkaniemi). Or there is a trade.

Either way, they have one player extra on the roster as we speak.

There is a third option. If MB is working on a trade and it does not happen by 5pm, he can send down a waiver-exempt player, and also put a vet like Folin on waivers, then once Folin clears or is taken by another club, recall the youngster he sent down and he can still play Thursday.

 

[BLONG7]

There is a third option. If MB is working on a trade and it does not happen by 5pm, he can send down a waiver-exempt player, and also put a vet like Folin on waivers, then once Folin clears or is taken by another club, recall the youngster he sent down and he can still play Thursday.

MB is always working on deals!! lol He had the whole summer, he is now down to a few hours!! Meanwhile Money Mol$on was preaching patience, again yesterday...

 

[habsfan891]

MB is always working on deals!! lol He had the whole summer, he is now down to a few hours!! Meanwhile Money Mol$on was preaching patience, again yesterday...

I feel like weve seen this story before, wait i think it was all but one of MB's summers as GM

 

[Number 57]

Yup. Teams need to be roster and cap compliant by 5PM ET. So as you say, either one of the kids get sent to Laval who do not require waivers (Suzuki, Poehling, Fleury, Mete & Kotkaniemi). Or there is a trade.

Either way, they have one player extra on the roster as we speak.

They could also put someone on IR

 

[Number 57]

I

Danault's presence did not stop Domi from racking up 72 points last year, nor SHOULD his presence stop Kotkaniemi from getting better as he hits 20-21 years of age. If anyone is worried that Clod Chu-Rien will overplay Danault even AFTER the proof is in that there are two centres better than him, then stop dissing Danault, and join the calls for a coaching change instead.

While I certainly agree with most of your points, as of right now Danault is miles ahead of Kotkaniemi and if we're trying to win, he should get more ice time

 

[BaseballCoach]

While I certainly agree with most of your points, as of right now Danault is miles ahead of Kotkaniemi and if we're trying to win, he should get more ice time

I'd like Phil to play less SH if possible, meaning if others can do the job, so that he can take a few shifts on the PP per game and see if it helps.

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

How has Kotkaniemi looked so far? is he improved? Any chance he could swindle the first line centre spot? I liked how he looked against the Canucks last year and drafted him last in my fantasy draft. Hoping he takes a big step this year.

 

[417]

People want to see players work with Bouchard because he's a good coach or at least so far he appears to be and sounds to be.

Joel Bouchard certainly has a good reputation as a coach.

However, the line between good and bad coach has always been blurry for me. I tend think more along the lines of "show me a good coach and i'll show you a good team".

As for Evans and Fleury, it depends on how good or bad of a coach Tourigny is for me to say if they would have been the same players they are today. I look at Lefebvre and felt he made some really terrible decisions that impacted his players, it doesn't mean they didn't make the NHL because of him but that perhaps if he were a better coach, someone that had experience as a head coach before being hired thus a proven track record of success, that things might have at least gone a little better for some of the prospects he coached.

Maybe - we'll never know. I think one of the elements that impacts a player the most from a coaching perspective is obviously ice time.

Players have to play to develop and I agree with you that SL had some curious lineup management decisions.

But would things have been different for the lot of prospects he coached had he managed them more effectively? Or had someone else managed them?

I don't know.

I've always hated the it's all on the players talk, granted we can never really know for sure how much impact a coach has, do the Habs win 5 cups without Bowman behind the bench, or do they win no matter who was behind the bench? But it's pointless to go on as some will always feel the coach doesn't have much of an impact and others will feel the coach can have a big impact or close to it. The truth could be somewhere in the middle.

I don't think it's all on the players...but I do think fans overestimate the impact a coach can have on players.

As for Evans playing a ton in the AHL this year, PP, etc.. and how it relates to him being ready for the NHL, of course it's a massive step to go from the AHL to the NHL but to me it's about how much a prospect can progress each year. At some point that progression will stop and they will peak, the problem is you never know what age that is going to be the case. For Evans, so far it hasn't happened yet, it would seem logical that this could be the year that happens or perhaps he only has a small bump in progress.

Playing a ton in the AHL, PP, won't make him ready for those roles in the NHL but for various reasons. He lacks physical tools and has never had high end skills. That doesn't mean he can't be a solid NHLer and that playing a lot in the AHL wouldn't help him reach that level, in fact I would think it would help a lot as his confidence seemed to grow as the season went on last year and it appears he carried that over to camp this year. Since we don't know what Bouchard is even saying to Evans it's hard to know what impact he has on him, Evans was always a smart, hard working, solid 2 way player since first saw him as a Freshman at Notre Dame. But what I do like about Bouchard is that he put Evans in the best position possible to have success and build confidence, something other coaches have not done and then got poor results. How much are they related we can only guess/speculate.

See this is what I mean

I've seen it repeated often here and in the media about how Jake Evans has looked good and it's because of the work he did with Joel Bouchard.

He played 67 games with the Rocket last year.

But no one gives credit to Jeff Jackson who coached him for 4yrs at Notre Dame and probably has/had the biggest impact on Evans as a player to date.

If you suck at hockey no coach can turn you into an NHLer. If you are a no talent goon no coach is going to turn you into Super Mario. Coaches are tools that are there to help improve a player, if all things were equal you wouldn't need to fire them.

Agreed - but like I said, i'm not trying to say coaches have no impact at all..

I just said I think their impact is overstated.

For me, in most cases, it comes down to the player. The coach, as you said, is another tool to help them improve as a player.

 

[Mrb1p]

How has Kotkaniemi looked so far? is he improved? Any chance he could swindle the first line centre spot? I liked how he looked against the Canucks last year and drafted him last in my fantasy draft. Hoping he takes a big step this year.

Trade him right away. Hes going to play 12 minutes a night with Armia again. Come back when Julien has been fired.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

How has Kotkaniemi looked so far? is he improved? Any chance he could swindle the first line centre spot? I liked how he looked against the Canucks last year and drafted him last in my fantasy draft. Hoping he takes a big step this year.

Hopefully he'll be a different player in the regular season, because he didn't look good in pre season.

 

[417]

How has Kotkaniemi looked so far?

Not nearly as bad as the media/fans will have you believe.

is he improved?

Difficult to say, he hasn't really had chance to play a lot, in an offensive role all preseason.

Any chance he could swindle the first line centre spot? I liked how he looked against the Canucks last year and drafted him last in my fantasy draft. Hoping he takes a big step this year.

Not if Claude Julien can help it.

We're all hoping he takes a big step this year...but the coaching staff probably feels like he has to spend another year in prospect purgatory because he's 19.

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

Hopefully he'll be a different player in the regular season, because he didn't look good in pre season.

Yeah that's what I've been reading on here but preseason doesn't mean anything. Vets are going through the motions, journeymen are desperate to make the team and young players are out of their element. I'll hold and wait. Too good of a player imo. Love his attitude

 

[ZUKI]

Why do we always talk about Danault & Drouin, but we never talk about Tatar....

You forget to add Lehkonen .We never read anything about him and his 31 points . I try to figure why but can't find

 

[ZUKI]

Because Tatar is great and is in the right seat. We never talk about Gally either.

Danault is great too ; one of the best 5/5 centres of the NHL

 

[habsfan891]

Danault is great too ; one of the best 5/5 centres of the NHL

This is a joke right i take crosby mcdavid malkin backstrom bergeron all before him at 5 on 5 and thats a 1 second list off the top of my head