Why retooling is the best option for the Habs

[G0bias]

We need to pump the brakes on Mete and Juulsen. Yes they are valuable prospects going forward. But every team has those kind of youngsters in their ranks.

Mete has particularly struggled to make an impact offensively and he could benefit from some seasoning in the AHL. Same for Juulsen who showed how green he still was. Seeing him get lit up for a season playing next to some Bargainbin fodder would be the perfect way to mess up his development. Since the goal is to build a contender, we need them to have an impact, not just survive at the next level.

 

[LaP]

We need to pump the brakes on Mete and Juulsen. Yes they are valuable prospects going forward. But every team has those kind of youngsters in their ranks.

Mete has particularly struggled to make an impact offensively and he could benefit from some seasoning in the AHL. Same for Juulsen who showed how green he still was. Seeing him get lit up for a season playing next to some Bargainbin fodder would be the perfect way to mess up his development.

It depends who is coaching the AHL team. If it's Nick Carrière then keep every kids in the NHL next year.

 

[G0bias]

It depends who is coaching the AHL team. If it's Nick Carrière then keep every kids in the NHL next year.

Fair enough. I just disagree with the idea we're in an acceptable re-tool situation because we have them coming up on defense. They're still far from having significant impacts on the team.

 

[Runner77]

Since the goal is to build a contender, we need them to have an impact, not just survive at the next level.

The goal is to tender a con ...

 

[scrubadam]

I think habs can follow the Bruins model. Bruins didn't tank to get where they are. They didn't dump all their vets (Bergeron/Chara). They didn't even draft high. Their biggest move was to get 13/14/15th pick 2 drafts ago, and only one of those players is having an impact NOW. Debrusk is a good player but he isn't franchise level. Macavoy is a good young D, but taken 14th in the draft.

Biggest turn around for the Bruins is what I have been advocating in this thread. Pasternak 80 point season and the Bruins are in the playoffs. Starting to see the correlation yet??? 11 points for the guy in the 1st round. To think we missed him by 1 pick, meanwhile Scherback is struggling to stay healthy.

If this team managed to get one forward who could get 80+ points it would transform the team. Weber/Price hopefully still have some good hockey left in them.

 

[Price is Wright]

I think habs can follow the Bruins model.

You think Marc Bergevin can follow a team model?

He failed miserably following the Blackhawks model and he worked for them.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I'm really not prepared to throw Drouin under the bus after this disastrous season. Pretty much nothing went well (for anyone) and I

I'm deeply skeptical of him.

I think we're arguing for a very similar type of process but just calling it different things. I'm fine with moving older core players so long as we get tangible assets in return that can provide clear cut contributions and help in the near future. I'm good with bringing in more draft picks and playing young guys in important roles. However, I'm not interested in blowing it all up - or simply moving out top players for picks - and sucking hard to get a good pick year after year until player values are in the toilet, the losing culture and negative press is rampant, and we have a GM simply rolling the dice and hoping for a player to fall into their lap through the draft (yes Bergevin sucks and is essentially doing this right now).

I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that patching holes at center and having younger players develop (our entire two bottom lines and Mete/Juulsen) is going to make the team competitive for as long as Price, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Drouin, and Weber are effective players.

I think a lot gets lost in translation with these silly terms ''rebuild'' and ''retool.'' When people hear ''rebuild'' they think BuffaLOL, but I think very few people actually want that. When you actually get to talk about specific strategies, there's a lot of agreement: move a couple older, key players to both get more picks, and increase the value of our own. I agree that scorching the earth and getting rid of anyone who's accomplished anything is a bad idea. We do make fun of Bergevin for his ''attitude'' and ''karaktere'' comments, but that's because of an absurd overemphasis, not because those things don't exist.

I think what you'll find with ''tankers'' is that they don't just want to ''compete.'' That's easy. They want to be the favourite to win it all. I think if you add ROR and some UFAs to this team, sure we'll ''compete'' but, ROR and Perron are not taking us to a cup.

 

[The Great Weal]

This is all I think about when someone says that this team is still good:

 

[Garbageyuk]

I think habs can follow the Bruins model. Bruins didn't tank to get where they are. They didn't dump all their vets (Bergeron/Chara). They didn't even draft high. Their biggest move was to get 13/14/15th pick 2 drafts ago, and only one of those players is having an impact NOW. Debrusk is a good player but he isn't franchise level. Macavoy is a good young D, but taken 14th in the draft.

Biggest turn around for the Bruins is what I have been advocating in this thread. Pasternak 80 point season and the Bruins are in the playoffs. Starting to see the correlation yet??? 11 points for the guy in the 1st round. To think we missed him by 1 pick, meanwhile Scherback is struggling to stay healthy.

If this team managed to get one forward who could get 80+ points it would transform the team. Weber/Price hopefully still have some good hockey left in them.

They had multiple home runs in the later rounds, and now they are starting to have the same uncanny success in the first round as well. They are similar to the 90's wings in terms of drafting. They've had their share of high picks over the years as well, and they also were able to land one of the biggest free agent signings to bolster their roster before their success. Good luck emulating that, especially with Bergevin at the helm. They are the lone Cup winner of the last 10 years to have not completely rebuilt. I don't think that's a model we can copy at all.

 

[scrubadam]

You think Marc Bergevin can follow a team model?

He failed miserably following the Blackhawks model and he worked for them.

No one says it has to be MB, well except for El Cheapo Molson.

But you can turn things around without having to bottom out for a few years. Bruins even tried to make the playoffs last season with Backes signing (horrible contract).

 

[scrubadam]

They had multiple home runs in the later rounds, and now they are starting to have the same uncanny success in the first round as well. They are similar to the 90's wings in terms of drafting. They've had their share of high picks over the years as well, and they also were able to land one of the biggest free agent signings to bolster their roster before their success. Good luck emulating that, especially with Bergevin at the helm. They are the lone Cup winner of the last 10 years to have not completely rebuilt. I don't think that's a model we can copy at all.

I am talking about recently. Bruins missed the playoffs 2 years in a row, but were drafting middle of the pack. They didn't need to panic and tear it all down. They kept Bergeron and Chara two vets, especially Chara that people probably wanted gone (like Weber). Like I said the big move they made was getting 3 mid picks in one draft, and in reality it didn't really help them much.

Biggest thing for the Bruins was Pasternak turned into a superstar forward (not even a C) and all of a sudden they are back on the top of the standings and are 1 game away from round 2 in large part thanks to Pasta's 11 points in this round.

The team even went out and gave a horrible contract to Backes and they still survived that!

 

[scrubadam]

Scrubadam, I thought that you abandoned us, when did you get back?

The season crushed my spirit. But its offseason now so time to be optimistic that the team can bounce back. Its the new NHL with parity. Anything can happen.

 

[Garbageyuk]

I am talking about recently. Bruins missed the playoffs 2 years in a row, but were drafting middle of the pack. They didn't need to panic and tear it all down. They kept Bergeron and Chara two vets, especially Chara that people probably wanted gone (like Weber). Like I said the big move they made was getting 3 mid picks in one draft, and in reality it didn't really help them much.

Biggest thing for the Bruins was Pasternak turned into a superstar forward (not even a C) and all of a sudden they are back on the top of the standings and are 1 game away from round 2 in large part thanks to Pasta's 11 points in this round.

The team even went out and gave a horrible contract to Backes and they still survived that!

Marchand, Bergeron, Krejci, Krug, and even Chara are still largely responsible for their success. Outside of Pastrnak, I wouldn't attribute much of anything to the rest of the team. Plus, it remains to be seen what kind of success they are even capable of going forward.

 

[OldCraig71]

The season crushed my spirit. But its offseason now so time to be optimistic that the team can bounce back. Its the new NHL with parity. Anything can happen.

Difficult to see this team bounce back in the hands of the guy that put this team in the position it is in now, all in his own "vision" . Parity only exists between teams that actually have talent, teams like ours only have parity with those at the bottom.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

Marchand, Bergeron, Krejci, Krug, and even Chara are still largely responsible for their success. Outside of Pastrnak, I wouldn't attribute much of anything to the rest of the team. Plus, it remains to be seen what kind of success they are even capable of going forward.

Marchand might be the best LW in the game right now, and Bergeron is easily one of the best centers in the game, Krejci is a luxury as a 2C..

Bruins are not a good example relative to us for advocating a retool. They have bigger & better pieces in more important positions.

 

[scrubadam]

Difficult to see this team bounce back in the hands of the guy that put this team in the position it is in now, all in his own "vision" . Parity only exists between teams that actually have talent, teams like ours only have parity with those at the bottom.

I think there is talent there. Price/Weber/AG/Drouin/Danault/Byron/Julsen/Mete/Petry decent supporting cast. But this team needs a big time forward, 80+ point guy. Look at PHI with Giroux, WPG with Laine, TOR with Matthews, NJD with Hall, Bruins with Pasta, COL with McKinnion. You manage to get a 80+ point forward and it makes a huge difference.

How and who will find it I have no idea. But 100% that needs to be the focus of this team. Enough with the 1-0 nothing hopeing that we will repeat Patrick Roy every year! Until a true bonafide star forward is added to the team they aren't going anywhere.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

I think there is talent there. Price/Weber/AG/Drouin/Danault/Byron/Julsen/Mete/Petry decent supporting cast. But this team needs a big time forward, 80+ point guy. Look at PHI with Giroux, WPG with Laine, TOR with Matthews, NJD with Hall, Bruins with Pasta, COL with McKinnion. You manage to get a 80+ point forward and it makes a huge difference.

How and who will find it I have no idea. But 100% that needs to be the focus of this team. Enough with the 1-0 nothing hopeing that we will repeat Patrick Roy every year! Until a true bonafide star forward is added to the team they aren't going anywhere.

Here’s the deal, those teams basically have 2 FWDs that can score 80pts

Philly also has Voracek
Toronto has Marner (91pt pace over the last 3 months)
Winnipeg has Scheifele
Bruins have Marchand & Bergeron
Colorado has Rantanen (Landeskog is no slouch, either)

These teams have considerably better players across the board, it’s not even close. We’d need Drouin to break out finally and Pacioretty to return to 70pt form in order to even be in the conversation.

 

[scrubadam]

Marchand, Bergeron, Krejci, Krug, and even Chara are still largely responsible for their success. Outside of Pastrnak, I wouldn't attribute much of anything to the rest of the team. Plus, it remains to be seen what kind of success they are even capable of going forward.

Yes they have good pieces, but Pasta at 70 points and the Bruins don't make the playoffs. Pasta with 80 points and they make it. And they kept Berg, Kreji, Marchand instead of selling them and tanking. Imagine if they "tanked" and sold of Berg/Chara/Krejci the last 2 years you think they would be 1 game away from the 2nd round?

This team needs to find a game breaking forward. Once you have that everyone else goes down a chair and teams have to put their best against that guy. It all flows from there. If somehow Scherbak pulls a Pasta next year and gets 80+ points I bet you habs are top 2 in their division, Drouin/AG probbaly flirt with 70 points. Ya its not going to happen, but that would transform the team like it did the Bruins.

 

[scrubadam]

Here’s the deal, those teams basically have 2 FWDs that can score 80pts

Philly also has Voracek
Toronto has Marner (91pt pace over the last 3 months)
Winnipeg has Scheifele
Bruins have Marchand & Bergeron
Colorado has Rantanen (Landeskog is no slouch, either)

These teams have considerably better players across the board, it’s not even close. We’d need Drouin to break out finally and Pacioretty to return to 70pt form in order to even be in the conversation.

Lets start with 1 guy and go from there. Add in a guy who gets 80/90/100 points who ever he is playing with will get 70-80 as well.

I understand you need pieces everywhere, but the biggest piece to me is that big point producing forward. This team is to focused on Defense, Dman, and goalies. They probably would salivate of having 23 Thomas Plekanecs on this team.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Marchand might be the best LW in the game right now, and Bergeron is easily one of the best centers in the game, Krejci is a luxury as a 2C..

Bruins are not a good example relative to us for advocating a retool. They have bigger & better pieces in more important positions.

Exactly.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Yes they have good pieces, but Pasta at 70 points and the Bruins don't make the playoffs. Pasta with 80 points and they make it. And they kept Berg, Kreji, Marchand instead of selling them and tanking. Imagine if they "tanked" and sold of Berg/Chara/Krejci the last 2 years you think they would be 1 game away from the 2nd round?

This team needs to find a game breaking forward. Once you have that everyone else goes down a chair and teams have to put their best against that guy. It all flows from there. If somehow Scherbak pulls a Pasta next year and gets 80+ points I bet you habs are top 2 in their division, Drouin/AG probbaly flirt with 70 points. Ya its not going to happen, but that would transform the team like it did the Bruins.

Pastrnak's production has a lot to do with his teammates. They would still make the playoffs without him easily. The notion of him being the reason the Bruins made the playoffs is ridiculous. As for Bergeron, Krejci, and Marchand, how did they get those player's? It goes back to my previous post. It's not realistic to expect the Habs to copy that. They didn't blow it up because they still have the pieces to contend, despite a bad season or two (mostly due to injuries). Where is our multiple Selke center with 1st line offense? Where is our ppg+ elite LW? Where is our 1B center? 60 point puck moving D? And then all the young kids they were able to find through the draft...The Habs and Bruins aren't even remotely comparable. Our scouting sucks and Bergevin is at the helm, expecting the Habs to emulate the Bruins is a pipe dream. Their draft homeruns lately are McAvoy, Pastrnak, Debrusk and more. Ours are Scherbak, Mete, Juulsen. I won't even comment about the Scherbak, Drouin, AG magically becoming 70-80 point players thing because it's stupid.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I think there is talent there. Price/Weber/AG/Drouin/Danault/Byron/Julsen/Mete/Petry decent supporting cast. But this team needs a big time forward, 80+ point guy. Look at PHI with Giroux, WPG with Laine, TOR with Matthews, NJD with Hall, Bruins with Pasta, COL with McKinnion. You manage to get a 80+ point forward and it makes a huge difference.

How and who will find it I have no idea. But 100% that needs to be the focus of this team. Enough with the 1-0 nothing hopeing that we will repeat Patrick Roy every year! Until a true bonafide star forward is added to the team they aren't going anywhere.

the Bruins model got Julien fired...
Bergevin loves his grinders, but skilled players ? not so much...

 

[Wats]

We need to pump the brakes on Mete and Juulsen. Yes they are valuable prospects going forward. But every team has those kind of youngsters in their ranks.

Mete has particularly struggled to make an impact offensively and he could benefit from some seasoning in the AHL. Same for Juulsen who showed how green he still was. Seeing him get lit up for a season playing next to some Bargainbin fodder would be the perfect way to mess up his development. Since the goal is to build a contender, we need them to have an impact, not just survive at the next level.

They should not be in NHL next season until they show to be too good for AHL.

 

[Deluded Puck]

The season crushed my spirit. But its offseason now so time to be optimistic that the team can bounce back. Its the new NHL with parity. Anything can happen.

*Sigh*

That hopeful bubble team talk - Don’t you think the team should be planning ahead for the next 4-6 years?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think habs can follow the Bruins model. Bruins didn't tank to get where they are. They didn't dump all their vets (Bergeron/Chara). They didn't even draft high. Their biggest move was to get 13/14/15th pick 2 drafts ago, and only one of those players is having an impact NOW. Debrusk is a good player but he isn't franchise level. Macavoy is a good young D, but taken 14th in the draft.

Biggest turn around for the Bruins is what I have been advocating in this thread. Pasternak 80 point season and the Bruins are in the playoffs. Starting to see the correlation yet??? 11 points for the guy in the 1st round. To think we missed him by 1 pick, meanwhile Scherback is struggling to stay healthy.

If this team managed to get one forward who could get 80+ points it would transform the team. Weber/Price hopefully still have some good hockey left in them.

Good point! Too many people think our team is toast. Yeah, we need improvements but a retool can change things. I’m all for the retool as long as we don’t sign any more Alzner type contracts and we don’t trade any youth or our picks