Why retooling is the best option for the Habs

[OldCraig71]

I don't disagree about rebuilding off the ice. My only point is that it starts with getting an impact forward.

17 out of the 21 80 point players were on playoff teams. Until this team adds a player of that caliber they aren't going anywhere.

If its MB or someone else I don't care, but until that player is added the team is going in circles to nowhere.

But how do you think a player gets 80 points? Do you feel like he does it on his own? What about help from those that surround him? How many wingers in this league are good enough to do that without a number one or two center to help them out? Radulov got 72 points in Dallas and could have done that here if he had help. As a winger he was the creator of offence on his line and that is not a recipe for success. We have Benn, Weber, Schlemko and Alzner on the back end, none of which is a pmd and only Petry has that ability but he is not a big point producer so no great help from our D either.

We had what we needed with Subban, Markov and an up and coming Sergachev but we got rid of all three, all we needed was to add center help to that group of three and we are not where we are today. Adam, this team is at the bottom through self inflicted wounds and will not climb out of this mess until there is new leadership.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Seeing everyone say we have holes on D makes me hate the Price contract even more. 10.5 for a goalie should afford you the luxury to have plenty of holes on D. Why the heck is so much money invested in a goalie if you have to go out and spend even more on your D.

That contract is going to haunt the team isn't it. MB's final dagger in the teams chest.

The reason money needs to be spent on D is because of how poorly assembled it is.

The defence doesn’t need to be stellar defensively.

They need to have better puckMovers.

Defenders, nowadays, need to be able to skate, handle the puck, and be quick decision makers with it.

This idea that good defense is based on your ability to play rough in the corners, block shots and clear the crease, needs to be seriously eroded from peoples minds.

 

[Saxon]

I don't disagree with what you are saying. I didn't say its easy nor do I know how or who will accomplish it. But the first thing that needs to happen is the habs NEED to get a PPG forward.

Of all the PPG forwards, only 4 were on non playoff teams, every other one was on a playoff team. If you have a PPG forward 75% chance you in the playoffs.

Aaaaaaaand you get ppg forwards by tanking..... Then when you get elite talent from tanking you make trades to build around the elite talent......

 

[scrubadam]

But how do you think a player gets 80 points? Do you feel like he does it on his own? What about help from those that surround him? How many wingers in this league are good enough to do that without a number one or two center to help them out? Radulov got 72 points in Dallas and could have done that here if he had help. As a winger he was the creator of offence on his line and that is not a recipe for success. We have Benn, Weber, Schlemko and Alzner on the back end, none of which is a pmd and only Petry has that ability but he is not a big point producer so no great help from our D either.

We had what we needed with Subban, Markov and an up and coming Sergachev but we got rid of all three, all we needed was to add center help to that group of three and we are not where we are today. Adam, this team is at the bottom through self inflicted wounds and will not climb out of this mess until there is new leadership.

Not disputing whats in bold. Its about results and MB's results have sucked the last 2 of 3 seasons. But even with a different GM, if they don't get that elite forward its the same mess. I think the best we ever had been was when Gainey went and got Kovalev and he scored 80+ pts.

As far as needing a supporting staff, I think it also works the other way where an 80 point forward helps the rest of the team. Look at the Devils top C's. Hirsch is a good young guy but is that the reason hall has 93 pts? Butcher had 44 points and was their top scoring D.

It would be nice to have the perfect team, but the first step to me has to be getting an 80+ point forward. Where I don't care.

Look at it this way. We get JT or pick up a guy who can be PPG in the draft this year or we bottom out for 3 years and we draft 60 point guys and a D or something. I prefer the first way. And it doesn't have to be MB doing any decisions I don't care who is the GM. If MB lucks into that player good for him, if its a different GM all the better.

 

[scrubadam]

Aaaaaaaand you get ppg forwards by tanking..... Then when you get elite talent from tanking you make trades to build around the elite talent......

I think you can get them not only from tanking, if you consider tanking as tradeing all your vets and sucking for a few years. You could be like TB and get a Stamkos on a down year and a Kucherov later in a draft. Or be like Boston get a Pasta late 1st round and keep your good vets like Bergeron/Chara/Krejci.

Scorched earth isn't necessary. If its management different story, but I am talking about the roster.

But look I am not 100% opposed to your idea. I just stray on the retool side, since the thread is about retool vs rebuild. Habs could not sign anyone this summer, trade Max, and go into next season expecting similar results.

 

[OldCraig71]

Not disputing whats in bold. Its about results and MB's results have sucked the last 2 of 3 seasons. But even with a different GM, if they don't get that elite forward its the same mess. I think the best we ever had been was when Gainey went and got Kovalev and he scored 80+ pts.

As far as needing a supporting staff, I think it also works the other way where an 80 point forward helps the rest of the team. Look at the Devils top C's. Hirsch is a good young guy but is that the reason hall has 93 pts? Butcher had 44 points and was their top scoring D.

It would be nice to have the perfect team, but the first step to me has to be getting an 80+ point forward. Where I don't care.

Look at it this way. We get JT or pick up a guy who can be PPG in the draft this year or we bottom out for 3 years and we draft 60 point guys and a D or something. I prefer the first way. And it doesn't have to be MB doing any decisions I don't care who is the GM. If MB lucks into that player good for him, if its a different GM all the better.

So if we don't get Tavares, who are we trading to get us back an 80 point forward? There were 21 guys in the league this year that got 80 points or above and I highly doubt that any of the names on the list are available for trade. We need to start over and there is no other option.

 

[mariolemieux66]

So if we don't get Tavares, who are we trading to get us back an 80 point forward? There were 21 guys in the league this year that got 80 points or above and I highly doubt that any of the names on the list are available for trade. We need to start over and there is no other option.

We have Pacioretty a 5 times 30 goals scorer and upcoming UFA. If Bergevin hasn't traded Pacioretty at the draft, i will lose it, since it probably means Bergevin is going all in with a shitty team.

 

[Runner77]

We have Pacioretty a 5 times 30 goals scorer and upcoming UFA. If Bergevin hasn't traded Pacioretty at the draft, i will lose it, since it probably means Bergevin is going all in with a ****ty team.

I suspect he'll give you more reason than that to lose it, lol. Watch him trade picks, add more bad contracts and players over 30. I don't think he has a vested interest in long term projects -- he's going for it and I expect moves that garner immediate benefits.

 

[ArtPeur]

I suspect he'll give you more reason than that to lose it, lol. Watch him trade picks, add more bad contracts and players over 30. I don't think he has a vested interest in long term projects -- he's going for it and I expect moves that garner immediate benefits.

Rick Nash, Green, Bozak and Bieksa

 

[groovejuice]

So if we don't get Tavares, who are we trading to get us back an 80 point forward? There were 21 guys in the league this year that got 80 points or above and I highly doubt that any of the names on the list are available for trade. We need to start over and there is no other option.

Unless my memory fails I'm pretty certain we had posters insisting Drouin was good for 80.

Too bad they were wrong.

 

[Milhouse40]

I suspect he'll give you more reason than that to lose it, lol. Watch him trade picks, add more bad contracts and players over 30. I don't think he has a vested interest in long term projects -- he's going for it and I expect moves that garner immediate benefits.

Hmmm. I think that's absolutely right.
Sadly, i think there's a couple of ways for Bergevin to get out of this mess.

One thing for sure, he knows that he don't have 2 years ahead of him.
Another season outside the PO and he's out. With some PO, he might survive.

We can be lucky....cause he can be lucky but i also expect some desperate move.

 

[scrubadam]

So if we don't get Tavares, who are we trading to get us back an 80 point forward? There were 21 guys in the league this year that got 80 points or above and I highly doubt that any of the names on the list are available for trade. We need to start over and there is no other option.

Thats the trick, I don't know who/where that guy will come from. Nor am I saying MB has any answers. Maybe from the draft, maybe AG/JD turn it around.

Burning it down is no more gurantee of getting that forward then keeping core pieces. Whichever way its done doesn't matter, but without a PPG forward the team is going nowhere.

And yes only 21 guys scored 80+ pts this year, 17 were on playoff teams. Thats why they are so important. Time to stop relying on goalies and Dmen and winning games 1-0 and 50 point forwards.

 

[OldCraig71]

Thats the trick, I don't know who/where that guy will come from. Nor am I saying MB has any answers. Maybe from the draft, maybe AG/JD turn it around.

Burning it down is no more gurantee of getting that forward then keeping core pieces. Whichever way its done doesn't matter, but without a PPG forward the team is going nowhere.

And yes only 21 guys scored 80+ pts this year, 17 were on playoff teams. Thats why they are so important. Time to stop relying on goalies and Dmen and winning games 1-0 and 50 point forwards.

We all want better players as fans but we don't have a GM that even sees the value in talent! He preaches character above all else and now attitude, I do agree that we need to get better but it will only be under new leadership.

 

[Belial]

We all want better players as fans but we don't have a GM that even sees the value in talent! He preaches character above all else and now attitude, I do agree that we need to get better but it will only be under new leadership.

Is Drouin known for his amazing character? Stop spewing bs man...

The reason he gets grinders and 4th liners all the time is because those elite talent guys are not laying on the road!

Scherbak was a picked because he was talented and skilled! Not because he had character!

Sergachev was picked because he was talented and skilled!

Chucky was picked because he was talented!

Just stop....

 

[Harry22]

Is Drouin known for his amazing character? Stop spewing bs man...

The reason he gets grinders and 4th liners all the time is because those elite talent guys are not laying on the road!

Scherbak was a picked because he was talented and skilled! Not because he had character!

Sergachev was picked because he was talented and skilled!

Chucky was picked because he was talented!

Just stop....

Dwight King was picked up because he was skilled!

Steve Ott was picked up because he was skilled!

Shea Weber was chosen over P.K Subban because he is more skilled!

Brandon Prust was picked up because he was talented and skilled!

Andrew Shaw was acquired because of his immense raw talent!

 

[OldCraig71]

Is Drouin known for his amazing character? Stop spewing bs man...

The reason he gets grinders and 4th liners all the time is because those elite talent guys are not laying on the road!

Scherbak was a picked because he was talented and skilled! Not because he had character!

Sergachev was picked because he was talented and skilled!

Chucky was picked because he was talented!

Just stop....

See the post below your response to me.

 

[Laurentide]

Is Drouin known for his amazing character? Stop spewing bs man...

The reason he gets grinders and 4th liners all the time is because those elite talent guys are not laying on the road!

Scherbak was a picked because he was talented and skilled! Not because he had character!

Sergachev was picked because he was talented and skilled!

Chucky was picked because he was talented!

Just stop....

Sherbak may or may not make the club next season.
Sergachev was traded before ever playing a game for us. Traded in a "Hail Mary" deal to bring in a francophone star who, so far, is not delivering on his promise.
Chucky has been misused and undervalued for the entire time he's been a Hab (which won't be for much longer - expect him to be the next one sacrificed on the altar of "attitude")

 

[Belial]

Dwight King was picked up because he was skilled!

Steve Ott was picked up because he was skilled!

Shea Weber was chosen over P.K Subban because he is more skilled!

Brandon Prust was picked up because he was talented and skilled!

Andrew Shaw was acquired because of his immense raw talent!

Read the post below, he said it so I don't need to.

Was there a Stamkos available for a 6th round pick?

Maaan the way some of you talk about Weber is like he traded PK for freaking Douglas Murray...

And once again that elite talent you keep talking about is just not on the damn market.

You're literally asking for miracles. And then get all worked up because he gets so-so players.

 

[Belial]

Sherbak may or may not make the club next season.
Sergachev was traded before ever playing a game for us. Traded in a "Hail Mary" deal to bring in a francophone star who, so far, is not delivering on his promise.
Chucky has been misused and undervalued for the entire time he's been a Hab (which won't be for much longer - expect him to be the next one sacrificed on the altar of "attitude")

This doesn't matter, there's a ridiculous belief around here that this management only targets grinders and 4th liners and that's complete bs.

Vanek? What a grinder!!!

Petry? What a defensive D!

 

[Laurentide]

This doesn't matter, there's a ridiculous belief around here that this management only targets grinders and 4th liners and that's complete bs.

Vanek? What a grinder!!!

Petry? What a defensive D!

The Habs are risk-averse so when they evaluate a player they obsess over factors like how well he plays without the puck, whether or not he back-checks and plays a 200 foot game, etc. They value these traits more than whatever offensive ability he might display. If he's got good offensive instincts but doesn't pay much attention to his defensive responsibilities they tend not to be interested or at least as interested as they are in the guy who doesn't score as much but who knows how to pick up his man on the back-check. They always treat offensive ability like it's gravy; a nice bonus to have so long as you take care of the important stuff like playing defense and blocking shots.

The thing is, you can teach any shlub how to back-check or block a shot but you cannot instill goal scoring ability into that same shlub. Goal scorers are born, not made. When you get your hands on one, you don't force him to learn how to back-check. You let him do what he does best and you find a shlub to do the grunt work for him. The Habs have too many shlubs and too few offensively-gifted players. And the few thoroughbreds they do have are being made to pull milk wagons because the coaching and managerial mindset of this franchise is stuck in the dead puck era of the 1990's.

 

[Belial]

The Habs are risk-averse so when they evaluate a player they obsess over factors like how well he plays without the puck, whether or not he back-checks and plays a 200 foot game, etc. They value these traits more than whatever offensive ability he might display. If he's got good offensive instincts but doesn't pay much attention to his defensive responsibilities they tend not to be interested or at least as interested as they are in the guy who doesn't score as much but who knows how to pick up his man on the back-check. They always treat offensive ability like it's gravy; a nice bonus to have so long as you take care of the important stuff like playing defense and blocking shots.

The thing is, you can teach any shlub how to back-check or block a shot but you cannot instill goal scoring ability into that same shlub. Goal scorers are born, not made. When you get your hands on one, you don't force him to learn how to back-check. You let him do what he does best and you find a shlub to do the grunt work for him. The Habs have too many shlubs and too few offensively-gifted players. And the few thoroughbreds they do have are being made to pull milk wagons because the coaching and managerial mindset of this franchise is stuck in the dead puck era of the 1990's.

Oh yeah? How come Chucky is still clueless in his own end? Same for Drouin?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Oh yeah? How come Chucky is still clueless in his own end? Same for Drouin?

Because Therrien et al. did a terrible job of developing Chucky, and Bergevin made a gross miscalculation in trading Sergachev? Sergachev was seen as being very risky, and Bergevin likely saw the move as trading for more of a sure thing. You don't remember how wobbly Sergachev looked in his call ups last year?

 

[Habaneros]

well, all these years we drafted guys with great character , and see where it got us?

Maybe draft the guys with bad character and see what happens....lol....a room full of bad "character" down in Nashville so they claimed few years ago....they made the Cup finals

 

[OldCraig71]

Was there a Stamkos available for a 6th round pick?

Maaan the way some of you talk about Weber is like he traded PK for freaking Douglas Murray...

And once again that elite talent you keep talking about is just not on the damn market.

You're literally asking for miracles. And then get all worked up because he gets so-so players.

How do teams get it then? Do they possibly draft and develop it maybe? We gave away one of the best D prospects in the league for a winger that we asked to play center. We added Martinsen, Ott and King for our playoff push a few years back and you act like Bergevins hands are tied, are you a relative of his or are you privy to his great "plan" that he can't share with the rest of us because we might not understand it?

 

[scrubadam]

We all want better players as fans but we don't have a GM that even sees the value in talent! He preaches character above all else and now attitude, I do agree that we need to get better but it will only be under new leadership.

Thats the catch-22. If the team turns it around then MB will proclaim himself a genius and Molson will extend him for another 20 years. If the team sucks then its another horrible boring season but maybe then MB will be gone.

If habs get new leadership I think they can turn the ship around without burning it all to the ground. Chose the right pieces to keep. But the team needs to focus on getting an offensive star and stop thinking Patrick Roy's ghost will possesses every goalie that don's a habs sweater.