Why retooling is the best option for the Habs

Habs Halifax

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*Sigh*

That hopeful bubble team talk - Don’t you think the team should be planning ahead for the next 4-6 years?

We got 10 picks in the top 130! Don’t you think that’s planing for the future? Do you know how rare our situation is with the picks we have in this next draft?

Put things into perspective.. 8 top 100 picks from 2008-2011. We have just as many picks in the next draft vs 4 years.
 

scrubadam

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*Sigh*

That hopeful bubble team talk - Don’t you think the team should be planning ahead for the next 4-6 years?

Thats impossible to do in todays NHL. One season your in the playoffs, next season you are out. GM's and coach's come and go. You try to get the best talent you can and try to win. COL wasn't planning last year for 4 years in the future. Neither were BOS or PHI.

Have a plan sure, but injuries, players declining all of a sudden, you can't control that. Habs are horrible this year and we probably walk away with a 2nd/3rd liner in the draft you can't plan to get Nylander/Marner/Matthews in a row and say voila.

And you know what, I would rather be a so called " bubble team" that is in the playoffs enjoying hockey than what we saw this year and I am forced to watch Leafs/Bruins games LOL. Teams like COL/PHI/BOS think they are up and coming teams but they can just as easily be out of the playoff picture next year. If you aren't winning you are losing and thats no fun.
 
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scrubadam

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Pastrnak's production has a lot to do with his teammates. They would still make the playoffs without him easily. The notion of him being the reason the Bruins made the playoffs is ridiculous. As for Bergeron, Krejci, and Marchand, how did they get those player's? It goes back to my previous post. It's not realistic to expect the Habs to copy that. They didn't blow it up because they still have the pieces to contend, despite a bad season or two (mostly due to injuries). Where is our multiple Selke center with 1st line offense? Where is our ppg+ elite LW? Where is our 1B center? 60 point puck moving D? And then all the young kids they were able to find through the draft...The Habs and Bruins aren't even remotely comparable. Our scouting sucks and Bergevin is at the helm, expecting the Habs to emulate the Bruins is a pipe dream. Their draft homeruns lately are McAvoy, Pastrnak, Debrusk and more. Ours are Scherbak, Mete, Juulsen. I won't even comment about the Scherbak, Drouin, AG magically becoming 70-80 point players thing because it's stupid.

I am not saying 100% copy the Bruins, but they are an example of a team that didn't blow it up to get where they are. And yes Bruins aren't only in the playoffs on the back of Pasta, but having a 80+ point player totally transforms your team. Burins actually have 2 with Marchand. Habs have none and haven't had one all the way back to Kovalev. Stop being blind their is a correlation between having 80/90/100 point players and teams winning.

I don't know where we will get that player. Hopefully one can fall in our lap like the Bruins with Pasta. If we had their pick and they had ours we would have Pasta and they would have Scherbak and I bet Habs are in the playoffs and they aren't.

I agree scouting is not good. Habs don't get those late gems that turn into stars. Its hurting the team. I am not the GM so I don't have the solution to turn the ship around, but IMO the first thing this team needs is a star forward. That will bring excitment to the team, and would put the habs in the playoffs. Maybe that doesn't equal cup. Sure we will need other pieces, some of them that we have are actually good. Weber/Price if they return to form are good players. Max as well or he can get something in return. AG/Drouin could put up more points if they played with a guy who gets 80+. Julsen/Mete/Petry are decent D men. Put Crosby or Malkin on this team and all those guys look a lot better.
 

Garbageyuk

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I am not saying 100% copy the Bruins, but they are an example of a team that didn't blow it up to get where they are. And yes Bruins aren't only in the playoffs on the back of Pasta, but having a 80+ point player totally transforms your team. Burins actually have 2 with Marchand. Habs have none and haven't had one all the way back to Kovalev. Stop being blind their is a correlation between having 80/90/100 point players and teams winning.

I don't know where we will get that player. Hopefully one can fall in our lap like the Bruins with Pasta. If we had their pick and they had ours we would have Pasta and they would have Scherbak and I bet Habs are in the playoffs and they aren't.

I agree scouting is not good. Habs don't get those late gems that turn into stars. Its hurting the team. I am not the GM so I don't have the solution to turn the ship around, but IMO the first thing this team needs is a star forward. That will bring excitment to the team, and would put the habs in the playoffs. Maybe that doesn't equal cup. Sure we will need other pieces, some of them that we have are actually good. Weber/Price if they return to form are good players. Max as well or he can get something in return. AG/Drouin could put up more points if they played with a guy who gets 80+. Julsen/Mete/Petry are decent D men. Put Crosby or Malkin on this team and all those guys look a lot better.
Stop being blind to the correlation between rebuilding and winning Cups. 9 of the last 10 Stanley Cup Finals involved teams that owed their success to complete rebuilds. 8 of the last 10 Cups were won by teams who rebuilt. And here you are wanting to emulate the one exception. What do you think the best way is to get a ppg forward? You are almost getting it, but you keep circling back away from the answer. Hint: it's not retooling and hoping for such a player to 'fall into your lap' or hoping for everything to 'fall into place'.
 
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Saxon

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Stop being blind to the correlation between rebuilding and winning Cups. 9 of the last 10 Stanley Cup Finals involved teams that owed their success to complete rebuilds. 8 of the last 10 Cups were won by teams who rebuilt. And here you are wanting to emulate the one exception. What do you think the best way is to get a ppg forward? You are almost getting it, but you keep circling around the answer. Hint: it's not retooling and hoping for such a player to 'fall into your lap' or hoping for everything to 'fall into place'.
Yup. In salary cap sports your either rebuilding, contending or stuck in mediocrity. Yet or management and fans keep trying to find ways to keep us mediocre.......
 
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habsgirl5000

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We got 10 picks in the top 130! Don’t you think that’s planing for the future? Do you know how rare our situation is with the picks we have in this next draft?

i dont care how many picks we have, MB will FIND A WAY to mess it up!

during MBs entire tenure to date.....when have draft picks really helped this team?

from a man who claimed right away he was going to "build through the draft"....he has basically F'ed up every draft and pick we have had.....and don't even think about crediting him with chucky, that was given to him
 

Kent Nilsson

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I think habs can follow the Bruins model. Bruins didn't tank to get where they are. They didn't dump all their vets (Bergeron/Chara). They didn't even draft high. Their biggest move was to get 13/14/15th pick 2 drafts ago, and only one of those players is having an impact NOW. Debrusk is a good player but he isn't franchise level. Macavoy is a good young D, but taken 14th in the draft.

Biggest turn around for the Bruins is what I have been advocating in this thread. Pasternak 80 point season and the Bruins are in the playoffs. Starting to see the correlation yet??? 11 points for the guy in the 1st round. To think we missed him by 1 pick, meanwhile Scherback is struggling to stay healthy.

If this team managed to get one forward who could get 80+ points it would transform the team. Weber/Price hopefully still have some good hockey left in them.

So all we need is an historic Selkes winner, a superstar two way winger, a Pastrnak equivalent, a playoff monster 2C, and a McAvoy who is probably their most important piece right now and going forward. Thats what Im saying, we need like 5 elite players to come out of nowhere. Good luck finding all of those before Price+Weber are done especially with the idiot in charge.

But why are the apologists allowed to bring up Boston (the lone succesful retool case at the moment), yet tanking=Edmonton ?
 

OldCraig71

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I think there is talent there. Price/Weber/AG/Drouin/Danault/Byron/Julsen/Mete/Petry decent supporting cast. But this team needs a big time forward, 80+ point guy. Look at PHI with Giroux, WPG with Laine, TOR with Matthews, NJD with Hall, Bruins with Pasta, COL with McKinnion. You manage to get a 80+ point forward and it makes a huge difference.

How and who will find it I have no idea. But 100% that needs to be the focus of this team. Enough with the 1-0 nothing hopeing that we will repeat Patrick Roy every year! Until a true bonafide star forward is added to the team they aren't going anywhere.
We need a number 1-2 center combo before we can become respectable I agree. I do not see that being Tavares and we would be better off trying to get in the next 2-3 years at the draft.
 

Habs Halifax

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i dont care how many picks we have, MB will FIND A WAY to mess it up!

during MBs entire tenure to date.....when have draft picks really helped this team?

from a man who claimed right away he was going to "build through the draft"....he has basically F'ed up every draft and pick we have had.....and don't even think about crediting him with chucky, that was given to him

The past doesn’t equal the future. The picks we accumulated are a big deal.
 

Habs Halifax

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Stop being blind to the correlation between rebuilding and winning Cups. 9 of the last 10 Stanley Cup Finals involved teams that owed their success to complete rebuilds. 8 of the last 10 Cups were won by teams who rebuilt. And here you are wanting to emulate the one exception. What do you think the best way is to get a ppg forward? You are almost getting it, but you keep circling back away from the answer. Hint: it's not retooling and hoping for such a player to 'fall into your lap' or hoping for everything to 'fall into place'.

Still dreaming we can rebuild like the Pens? How many cups have the Blackhawks and Pens won in the last decade? Then who else has won besides them?

I get your point but we can rebuild on the fly without tearing it apart. Be careful what you wish for with selling everything. You might hate the next 10 years more than this past year.

Count how many teams have been rebuilding for the last 5-10 years?

Add more assets on top of what we have. Price and Weber are not 36 yet
 
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scrubadam

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Stop being blind to the correlation between rebuilding and winning Cups. 9 of the last 10 Stanley Cup Finals involved teams that owed their success to complete rebuilds. 8 of the last 10 Cups were won by teams who rebuilt. And here you are wanting to emulate the one exception. What do you think the best way is to get a ppg forward? You are almost getting it, but you keep circling back away from the answer. Hint: it's not retooling and hoping for such a player to 'fall into your lap' or hoping for everything to 'fall into place'.

I think its a stretch to say that Pitts and LA "rebuild" Pitts rebuilt 10+ years ago. Their last 2 cups are not from tanking or they would of sold off Malkin and Crosby. LA also only turned the corner when they made their big trades.

Anyways I agree with some of your points, my main point is that this team needs a big scoring forward or they are going nowhere. I don't think the team has to sell everyone and suck for 3 or 4 years to get there. Or maybe they do I don't know. But until they add that forward the team will never go anywhere.

My example of Boston was to show that a team doesn't need to finish bottom of the league or draft top 3 or sell all its vets to turn their franchise around. I don't have an issue if you say MB has nothing on Boston GM. I wouldn't have a problem if the team decided to not sign anyone next year and take one more year of loseing, but I don't want to see mulitple years of losing to try and collect all the pieces at the top of the draft.
 

scrubadam

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We need a number 1-2 center combo before we can become respectable I agree. I do not see that being Tavares and we would be better off trying to get in the next 2-3 years at the draft.

Center combo would be nice, but I would take a Hall or Laine on this team any day of the week. You get a good winger and they make their C better.

Tavares though a pipe dream I don't really fell is the answer either. MB is probably going to put all his eggs in that basket but Tavares isn't coming here.
 

CHfan1

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I think its a stretch to say that Pitts and LA "rebuild" Pitts rebuilt 10+ years ago. Their last 2 cups are not from tanking or they would of sold off Malkin and Crosby. LA also only turned the corner when they made their big trades.

All of the Penguins cups are from tanking. You understand that they got Crosby and Malkin during a five year run where they had top 5 picks each year (with two being #1’s and two being #2’s).
 

Wats

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We got 10 picks in the top 130! Don’t you think that’s planing for the future? Do you know how rare our situation is with the picks we have in this next draft?

Put things into perspective.. 8 top 100 picks from 2008-2011. We have just as many picks in the next draft vs 4 years.

How many picks Gauthier get for 2012/2013 drafts? Just want to make sure the previous fired GM doesn't get double standard.
 

scrubadam

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All of the Penguins cups are from tanking. You understand that they got Crosby and Malkin during a five year run where they had top 5 picks each year (with two being #1’s and two being #2’s).

I understand that, and that was from 2001-2005. They won two of their last cups in 15 and 16, 10 years later. If we win a cup is it because we tanked and got Price? Penguins didn't have to rebuild to get their 2nd and 3rd cup with Malkin/Crosby, the retooled and picked up guys like Hagelin/Bonino/Kessel and drafted extremely well.

Also that was pre cap era, so its a bit hard to compare. How many tankers have won cups lately/finals?
SJS didn't rebuild, Bruins didn't, Rangers didn't. TB they just had a bad year here and there but no "rebuilds". Devils/Canuks/Flyers I don't know if I would call those rebuilds either. I guess Vancouver managed to get the Sedins in one draft like a decade earlier.

Pitts/Chicago got extremely lucky at the draft and rode that to multiple cups. Banking on getting mulitple franchise HOF players in consecutive draft years isn't the soundest strategy either.

Anyways in the end I don't really have a big leaning either way, but to me this team is going nowhere without getting a franchise forward. If they have to strategically tank to get one then so be it. But unless that happens I don't care how good the Goalie is or the Defense the team is going nowhere.
 

NobleSix

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I think habs can follow the Bruins model. Bruins didn't tank to get where they are. They didn't dump all their vets (Bergeron/Chara). They didn't even draft high. Their biggest move was to get 13/14/15th pick 2 drafts ago, and only one of those players is having an impact NOW. Debrusk is a good player but he isn't franchise level. Macavoy is a good young D, but taken 14th in the draft.

Biggest turn around for the Bruins is what I have been advocating in this thread. Pasternak 80 point season and the Bruins are in the playoffs. Starting to see the correlation yet??? 11 points for the guy in the 1st round. To think we missed him by 1 pick, meanwhile Scherback is struggling to stay healthy.

If this team managed to get one forward who could get 80+ points it would transform the team. Weber/Price hopefully still have some good hockey left in them.

So...all we have to do to have a good team is acquire an 80+ point player, something we haven't had in like two decades. Should be easy enough. There are always a bunch of those available.

The Bruins are where they are now because they drafted well. That, along with purging a terrible GM and promoting speed, youth, and skill with a more forward thinking coach are the reasons why they are where they are.

The Habs will only turn it around by drafting well, having a good GM, and promoting youth, speed, and skill. None of those things are currently associated with the organization. Which is why big changes need to be made before we see any significant improvement.
 

CHfan1

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I understand that, and that was from 2001-2005. They won two of their last cups in 15 and 16, 10 years later. If we win a cup is it because we tanked and got Price? Penguins didn't have to rebuild to get their 2nd and 3rd cup with Malkin/Crosby, the retooled and picked up guys like Hagelin/Bonino/Kessel and drafted extremely well.

Also that was pre cap era, so its a bit hard to compare. How many tankers have won cups lately/finals?
SJS didn't rebuild, Bruins didn't, Rangers didn't. TB they just had a bad year here and there but no "rebuilds". Devils/Canuks/Flyers I don't know if I would call those rebuilds either. I guess Vancouver managed to get the Sedins in one draft like a decade earlier.

Pitts/Chicago got extremely lucky at the draft and rode that to multiple cups. Banking on getting mulitple franchise HOF players in consecutive draft years isn't the soundest strategy either.

Anyways in the end I don't really have a big leaning either way, but to me this team is going nowhere without getting a franchise forward. If they have to strategically tank to get one then so be it. But unless that happens I don't care how good the Goalie is or the Defense the team is going nowhere.

If we had Crosby and Malkin I agree we should retool. The Habs do not have those players.

And yeah I know it was 10 years later, but the sole reason they won those last two cups is because of those two players. Take them away where do you think the Penguins are?

I know it’s harder to tank and get elite talent in the draft lottery era. Myself I’m not hoping the Habs purposefully tank; I’m hoping they keep loading up on high round draft picks, which includes trading veteran players for them, such as Pacioretty. They then can continue to draft elite skilled players and develop them properly.

I also don’t want them to sign 30+ UFA’s to long term deals.
 

snakeye

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I understand that, and that was from 2001-2005. They won two of their last cups in 15 and 16, 10 years later. If we win a cup is it because we tanked and got Price? Penguins didn't have to rebuild to get their 2nd and 3rd cup with Malkin/Crosby, the retooled and picked up guys like Hagelin/Bonino/Kessel and drafted extremely well.

Also that was pre cap era, so its a bit hard to compare. How many tankers have won cups lately/finals?
SJS didn't rebuild, Bruins didn't, Rangers didn't. TB they just had a bad year here and there but no "rebuilds". Devils/Canuks/Flyers I don't know if I would call those rebuilds either. I guess Vancouver managed to get the Sedins in one draft like a decade earlier.

Pitts/Chicago got extremely lucky at the draft and rode that to multiple cups. Banking on getting mulitple franchise HOF players in consecutive draft years isn't the soundest strategy either.

Anyways in the end I don't really have a big leaning either way, but to me this team is going nowhere without getting a franchise forward. If they have to strategically tank to get one then so be it. But unless that happens I don't care how good the Goalie is or the Defense the team is going nowhere.

To sum it up, it's a better idea to run the team properly than to run it into the ground and hope it magically turns into a cup contender.
 

scrubadam

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So...all we have to do to have a good team is acquire an 80+ point player, something we haven't had in like two decades. Should be easy enough. There are always a bunch of those available.

The Bruins are where they are now because they drafted well. That, along with purging a terrible GM and promoting speed, youth, and skill with a more forward thinking coach are the reasons why they are where they are.

The Habs will only turn it around by drafting well, having a good GM, and promoting youth, speed, and skill. None of those things are currently associated with the organization. Which is why big changes need to be made before we see any significant improvement.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. I didn't say its easy nor do I know how or who will accomplish it. But the first thing that needs to happen is the habs NEED to get a PPG forward.

Of all the PPG forwards, only 4 were on non playoff teams, every other one was on a playoff team. If you have a PPG forward 75% chance you in the playoffs.
 

scrubadam

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If we had Crosby and Malkin I agree we should retool. The Habs do not have those players.

And yeah I know it was 10 years later, but the sole reason they won those last two cups is because of those two players. Take them away where do you think the Penguins are?

I know it’s harder to tank and get elite talent in the draft lottery era. Myself I’m not hoping the Habs purposefully tank; I’m hoping they keep loading up on high round draft picks, which includes trading veteran players for them, such as Pacioretty. They then can continue to draft elite skilled players and develop them properly.

I also don’t want them to sign 30+ UFA’s to long term deals.

I think trading Max is good. Kinda like Bruins with Lucic. But we can hold onto Price/Weber.

I also wouldn't be keen on signing UFA's unless they are game breakers. JT sure, but a guy like Statsney though nice is just another 60 point guy. Same with ROR or Perron.

50-60 point guys aren't going to cut it. It will lead to the same boring hockey and the same results. Until this team adds an elite level PPG forward they aren't going anywhere except in circles.
 

OldCraig71

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I don't disagree with what you are saying. I didn't say its easy nor do I know how or who will accomplish it. But the first thing that needs to happen is the habs NEED to get a PPG forward.

Of all the PPG forwards, only 4 were on non playoff teams, every other one was on a playoff team. If you have a PPG forward 75% chance you in the playoffs.
We need competent leadership before anything positive happens and you know this. You disappeared for 3 months because you know this and now you and one other poster are back talking about us getting a few pieces that will get us back on track . We need a complete rebuild right through the organisation both on the ice and off it or nothing changes. Stop hoping we catch lightning in a bottle, it doesn't work.
 

scrubadam

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We need competent leadership before anything positive happens and you know this. You disappeared for 3 months because you know this and now you and one other poster are back talking about us getting a few pieces that will get us back on track . We need a complete rebuild right through the organisation both on the ice and off it or nothing changes. Stop hoping we catch lightning in a bottle, it doesn't work.

Personal attacks, a wonder why people leave this board.

The topic is rebuild or retooled, just offering my opinion, which is getting a PPG forward is the way to go.

Wether thats at the draft, by a different GM, or UFA/Trade I don't care. But if this team doesn't get a PPG forward they are never going anywhere. 21 players had over 80 points this year, 17 were on playoff teams.

Fire the entire management and El cheapo Molson too I don't care. But if the next guy brings in 50-60 point guys, and focuses on D and the goalie the team will continue to go in circles.

Until this team finds a PPG game breaking forward to me the rest of the team doesn't matter. Once they find that player they can build around him and have a chance.
 
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OldCraig71

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Personal attacks, a wonder why people leave this board.

The topic is rebuild or retooled, just offering my opinion, which is getting a PPG forward is the way to go.

Wether thats at the draft, by a different GM, or UFA/Trade I don't care. But if this team doesn't get a PPG forward they are never going anywhere. 21 players had over 80 points this year, 17 were on playoff teams.

Fire the entire management and El cheapo Molson too I don't care. But if the next guy brings in 50-60 point guys, and focuses on D and the goalie the team will continue to go in circles.

Until this team finds a PPG game breaking forward to me the rest of the team doesn't matter. Once they find that player they can build around him and have a chance.
It was not a personal attack at all, you left this board and it was because you hyped the team we had along with a few other people and you were wrong. This team needs a complete rebuild on and off the ice and one forward will not change that.
 
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scrubadam

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It was not a personal attack at all, you left this board and it was because you hyped the team we had along with a few other people and you were wrong. This team needs a complete rebuild on and off the ice and one forward will not change that.

I don't disagree about rebuilding off the ice. My only point is that it starts with getting an impact forward.

17 out of the 21 80 point players were on playoff teams. Until this team adds a player of that caliber they aren't going anywhere.

If its MB or someone else I don't care, but until that player is added the team is going in circles to nowhere.
 

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