Why retooling is the best option for the Habs

[Deluded Puck]

It’s mad. We’re lacking in so many areas and have too many core players with question marks hanging over them.

Bergevin missed the window, the farm club is an even bigger shambles, the fish needs gutting out.

 

[BLONG7]

Our next pick? Trade Patch for another 1st. Our two early 2nd round picks. Picks we get next year? It’s not rocket science

MB says his job is tough, really tough, and he just can't explain it to us, we just wouldn't understand. lol

 

[Draft]

So, one of those wingers you think is going to hit 30 goals and 60 points was playing center for us this year, and he hit 46 points. He's furthermore never had more than 53 points, including when he was playing about 3 minutes per game on this powerplay:

Moreover, an elite goaltender is nothing. All the top teams have good enough goaltending to nullify any advantage that Carey Price gives us, and that's actually assuming he bounces back. The main reason why I didn't want to re-sign Price is because he's just not worth that salary unless he's 2014-15 Carey. The number one D has his best years behind him and was never able to accomplish anything in the playoffs.

That leads us to the holes that are still in the lineup. So, assuming Price rebounds, and assuming Weber's foot is alright, all of LD is a question mark, and even when given ROR by magic, we still have a gaping hole at 2C. But we had to give something to get ROR. What do you think that would be? It would absolutely include our first, which means that ROR better be enough on his own, because the cavalry is not about to arrive any time soon: neither by trade, to plug the holes in the lineup, nor by draft.

When is it time to pull the plug? When you have absolutely no good players left on the roster?

I'm relatively confident that Drouin can hit 60pts as a top line winger playing with a legitimate counterman. It's not like he'll be playing less PP minutes anytime in the near future. I don't think many people would dispute that.

Elite goaltending is not nothing. We've seen just as many teams go absolutely nowhere because of weak or simply good goaltending. Look at the teams in the next round of the playoffs and tell me who has a goalie that isn't playing a significant part in their success. We can do a rebuild and still be bumped in the first round because of not having a #1D or a solid goaltender (Toronto being the easiest example).

Every team has question marks going into next season. Every team has holes to fill. It's not as simple as plugging in lottery picks to make the roster look good.

I'm not sure if pulling the plug is even a viable option given the new lottery system. Being as bad as possible with the hopes of becoming good through luck simply isn't going to work. For every Pittsburgh and Chicago, there's an Edmonton and a Phoenix. Ice a competitive team with a focus on building for the future. Move complimentary guys like Pacioretty/Shaw/Byron/Alzner for picks and prospects and draft smart this year (like the team did last year). Bolster that with good FA signings.

Maybe I'm just not a strong believer in tanking.

 

[blarneylad]

Actually this summer is our chance. Not last summer. The cap space, picks and having Pacioretty as a trade chip, as well as the biggest centre target we could possibly get our hands on is set to become a free agent. This is the summer where the habs can make things happen and I strongly believe they will

And if they don't, it is time for some TNT

 

[nhlfan9191]

Pens, Hawks, Kings, Bolts; teams from this list have been involved in 9 out of the last 10 Stanley Cup Finals, and the first three have won 8 out of the last 10 Stanley Cups. All did a complete rebuild. That's how you win in the salary cap era. Tampa hasn't won yet, but they are contenders every spring, and they may very well pull it off this year. You can point to failed rebuilds, but it doesn't change this fact: if your goal is to win the Cup, then rebuilding is how you get to be competitive in the salary cap era. The numbers don't lie. If your goal is to "make da playoff; any ting can appen", then I guess a 'retool' will suffice.

The argument most Bergevin apologists have against a rebuild is pointing to the teams that have failed and ensuring the same will happen if we do it. They’ll also try and manipulate it to make it seem like fans who want to blow it up have some false hope of drafting both a Sidney Crosby and an Evygeny Malkin while completely ignoring that the whole point of a rebuild is to accumulate as many picks to increase your odds on hitting a homer in on all rounds and building depth so you don’t end up in the position we’re in. It’s true that there is risk. But just because teams have failed at it because they also have employed incompetent management doesn’t change anything. At the end of the day, we’re going to need a team of a people who know how to not only put in the building blocks, but take it to the next level. If you look at the teams that have failed at rebuilding, this is where it happened.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

The argument most Bergevin apologists have against a rebuild is pointing to the teams that have failed and ensuring the same will happen if we do it. They’ll also try and manipulate it to make it seem like fans who want to blow it up have some false hope of drafting both a Sidney Crosby and an Evygeny Malkin while completely ignoring that the whole point of a rebuild is to accumulate as many picks to increase your odds on hitting a homer in on all rounds and building depth so you don’t end up in the position we’re in. It’s true that there is risk. But just because teams have failed at it because they also have employed incompetent management doesn’t change anything. At the end of the day, we’re going to need a team of a people who know how to not only put in the building blocks, but take it to the next level. If you look at the teams that have failed at rebuilding, this is where it happened.

I think the rebuild will happen one way or another. Id rather have a quicker rebuild and get players in the same age group, while the apologists a longer, more painful one with an incoherent core spread between various ages.

 

[Price is Wright]

Everyone for retooling loves to bring up that rebuilding can't guarantee a Cup but they never consider all of the failed retools in history and how the last successful retool was probably be the 07 Ducks.

 

[LaP]

I'm relatively confident that Drouin can hit 60pts as a top line winger playing with a legitimate counterman. It's not like he'll be playing less PP minutes anytime in the near future. I don't think many people would dispute that.

Elite goaltending is not nothing. We've seen just as many teams go absolutely nowhere because of weak or simply good goaltending. Look at the teams in the next round of the playoffs and tell me who has a goalie that isn't playing a significant part in their success. We can do a rebuild and still be bumped in the first round because of not having a #1D or a solid goaltender (Toronto being the easiest example).

Every team has question marks going into next season. Every team has holes to fill. It's not as simple as plugging in lottery picks to make the roster look good.

I'm not sure if pulling the plug is even a viable option given the new lottery system. Being as bad as possible with the hopes of becoming good through luck simply isn't going to work. For every Pittsburgh and Chicago, there's an Edmonton and a Phoenix. Ice a competitive team with a focus on building for the future. Move complimentary guys like Pacioretty/Shaw/Byron/Alzner for picks and prospects and draft smart this year (like the team did last year). Bolster that with good FA signings.

Maybe I'm just not a strong believer in tanking.

If you pull the plug it's not just about the lottery. You'll get a good kid for Weber.

Honestly in the event we get the first overall and Dahlin and can't sign Tavares i would seriously consider it. There's no good young centers this year and Weber could be our only option to get a good young 18-19 years old center in a trade. As long as we can't find a real first line center we are just stupidly wasting Weber's few remaining prime years and there's not a lot of them remaining. I would seriously consider pulling the plug with the first overall and no option on the UFA market.

 

[Per Sjoblom]

What a sight for sore eyes.

 

[Draft]

The argument most Bergevin apologists have against a rebuild is pointing to the teams that have failed and ensuring the same will happen if we do it. They’ll also try and manipulate it to make it seem like fans who want to blow it up have some false hope of drafting both a Sidney Crosby and an Evygeny Malkin while completely ignoring that the whole point of a rebuild is to accumulate as many picks to increase your odds on hitting a homer in on all rounds and building depth so you don’t end up in the position we’re in. It’s true that there is risk. But just because teams have failed at it because they also have employed incompetent management doesn’t change anything. At the end of the day, we’re going to need a team of a people who know how to not only put in the building blocks, but take it to the next level. If you look at the teams that have failed at rebuilding, this is where it happened.

What does this have to do with supporting Bergevin? This is about rebuilding or retooling, not who does it. Pretty lame way to support your argument.

Claiming being faced with a straw man/hyperbole of acquiring a Malkin or Crosby (Toews/Kane, Doughty/Kopitar, is just plain lazy. Find me a single "rebuild" or "tank" that hasn't relied on all star players from the top-10 of the draft to win a cup. Getting players like that is rare and LITERALLY the goal of tanking and pretty much the only way to be successful at it. Now that a 1st-3rd OA isn't guaranteed with a tank, the chances of landing one of those players is even less than before. We're going to draft more Galchenyuks/Drouins/Sergachevs? Is that really guaranteed to put the team over the top? Try comparing the amount of tanks/rebuilds that have been successful against the ones that haven't. It isn't the prettiest picture.

Montreal is not in a position of lacking any depth or support from the later rounds of the draft. The team is fully stocked with good, cheap talent at all positions. The current, garbage, management has stocked the cupboards full of talented depth and complimentary players. More picks won't change this and there is only an infinitesimal chance that acquiring more later round picks will result in an impact player.

The foundation for a perennially competitive hockey team is there. Tanking is just more bad hockey for a longer period of time. Wishful, imaginative thinking as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Draft]

If you pull the plug it's not just about the lottery. You'll get a good kid for Weber.

Honestly in the event we get the first overall and Dahlin and can't sign Tavares i would seriously consider it. There's no good young centers this year and Weber could be our only option to get a good young 18-19 years old center in a trade. As long as we can't find a real first line center we are just stupidly wasting Weber's few remaining prime years and there's not a lot of them remaining. I would seriously consider pulling the plug with the first overall and no option on the UFA market.

Getting a Dahlin/Tavares changes things. There's no question about that. I might be in the same boat if Habs win the lottery and have a young, generational talent-level #1 defenceman to build the team around. That's a lot different than simply starting from scratch and hoping some shit sticks to the wall.

 

[Draft]

Everyone for retooling loves to bring up that rebuilding can't guarantee a Cup but they never consider all of the failed retools in history and how the last successful retool was probably be the 07 Ducks.

08 Wings and 2011 Bruins are both teams that retooled around core players and strong organizational depth IMO.

 

[Price is Wright]

08 Wings and 2011 Bruins are both teams that retooled around core players and strong organizational depth IMO.

Boston was rebuilding 06-08 but it ended early due to Thomas and Chara while Bergeron/Krecji showed they didn't need much more in terms of youth. Detroit never rebuilt or retooled. They stayed competitive.

 

[groovejuice]

08 Wings and 2011 Bruins are both teams that retooled around core players and strong organizational depth IMO.

The Habs haven't got that option, unfortunately. Bergevin has not improved the core in 6 years. In fact, the Dcorps is awful and the deployment and results from the O are worse than ever.

 

[LaP]

The Habs haven't got that option, unfortunately. Bergevin has not improved the core in 6 years. In fact, the Dcorps is awful and the deployment and results from the O are worse than ever.

I've been watching the habs since the mid 80ies and it's the worst season and team i've seen by a fair margin. Without Weber it was an AHL defense and the depth up front was pretty much AHL quality too.

 

[scrubadam]

Seeing everyone say we have holes on D makes me hate the Price contract even more. 10.5 for a goalie should afford you the luxury to have plenty of holes on D. Why the heck is so much money invested in a goalie if you have to go out and spend even more on your D.

That contract is going to haunt the team isn't it. MB's final dagger in the teams chest.

 

[montreal]

I think the rebuild will happen one way or another. Id rather have a quicker rebuild and get players in the same age group, while the apologists a longer, more painful one with an incoherent core spread between various ages.

agreed. It's going to happen one way or the other unless things take a very surprising turnaround. I thought for sure the team was going to be a playoff bound team as I would have never expected Price to have his worst season letting in over 3 g a game, or that Pac would suck so badly, I thought Drouin would look really good, that CJ would do a better job and handle his players better but in the end it was a disaster. Now I still don't know what the f*** is going on with Price, so if he rebounds the Habs are going to be a better team but then you have to look at Weber and wonder what impact his injury will have, what they do with Pac. How much can Drouin improve as he was a massive disappointment with such lazy play but seemed to get a free pass from CJ.

So now we sit and wait to see what the plan is, what this team will look like, where they are headed, what moves are made and who rebounds. If this season is the start of the decline of Price we are so f***ed as 10.5M on a backup level goalie is going to cripple this team. Then you have to hope Weber can rebound and you can get something decent for him and to do so you will likely have to eat cap space unless he's playing at the top of his game or near to it. That's more money in the hole. Then you have to hope either you can get a good return on Pac, which so far they clearly couldn't or he wouldn't be here, or else you have to hope he comes into next season pissed off and plays much better upping his trade value as it's highly unlikely he would re-sign here.

With the way management has shown themselves to be incompetent, the way they handled Markov/Rad, the lack of return on their biggest trades, the poor contracts they have handed out, not having the best coaches, not having a sound development system by calling up too many prospects at 19/20 when they weren't ready. Letting coaches play crap like waivers Shaw or Benn/Alzner when they could have focused on youth since the season was clearly lost and not wait till very late in the season to do so. It's hard to imagine a management team could make so many mistakes, fail so badly and yet the owner trusts them to fix all those mistakes overnight? It's hard to believe someone would be that stupid to think that the people that wrecked building your house are going to be the right ones to fix all their mistakes.

So unless things do a massive 180, we are going to suck again. I'm sure they throw tons of money at JT, just don't see why he would sign here and look forward to him signing somewhere as soon as possible so we can stop dreaming about it. And yes if they win the lotto and management gets their franchise blueliner that's going to fix one major hole for a long time to come but then we still have tons of other issues without much help on the way any time soon.

 

[Beer and Chips]

Our next pick? Trade Patch for another 1st. Our two early 2nd round picks. Picks we get next year? It’s not rocket science

Isn't 2019 supposed to be center dominated in the top ten? Better to draft than trade for IMO since we have so little to offer and I wouldn't name Price or Weber since MG wouldn't think of trading either since he is trying to save his job.

 

[nhlfan9191]

What does this have to do with supporting Bergevin? This is about rebuilding or retooling, not who does it. Pretty lame way to support your argument.

Claiming being faced with a straw man/hyperbole of acquiring a Malkin or Crosby (Toews/Kane, Doughty/Kopitar, is just plain lazy. Find me a single "rebuild" or "tank" that hasn't relied on all star players from the top-10 of the draft to win a cup. Getting players like that is rare and LITERALLY the goal of tanking and pretty much the only way to be successful at it. Now that a 1st-3rd OA isn't guaranteed with a tank, the chances of landing one of those players is even less than before. We're going to draft more Galchenyuks/Drouins/Sergachevs? Is that really guaranteed to put the team over the top? Try comparing the amount of tanks/rebuilds that have been successful against the ones that haven't. It isn't the prettiest picture.

Montreal is not in a position of lacking any depth or support from the later rounds of the draft. The team is fully stocked with good, cheap talent at all positions. The current, garbage, management has stocked the cupboards full of talented depth and complimentary players. More picks won't change this and there is only an infinitesimal chance that acquiring more later round picks will result in an impact player.

The foundation for a perennially competitive hockey team is there. Tanking is just more bad hockey for a longer period of time. Wishful, imaginative thinking as far as I'm concerned.

You pretty much just proved what I’ve always debated with this post as far as people who are anti tank and support Bergevin’s “retool” as opposed to rebuild with this post. Bergevin himself came out and said it’s tough to get talent in the draft when your drafting in the later parts. A lot of people who don’t understand what a rebuild really is think fans are only looking for lottery picks. It’s not about getting just lottery picks. It’s about picking earlier in the draft each round which I’ve repeated multiple times along with stock piling more prospects by aquiring more picks. The current management has very little currently so I don’t get where you’re getting we have depth from. Mete, Juulsen, Scherbak, Hudon, De La Rose? What team doesn’t have prospects or depth in their organization like these? Mete looks decent but he’s a 5’9 defenceman who still has a lot to prove himself. You need a lot more then players like this.

As for your stawman/lame arguement comment. It’s not. I’ve debated with enough apologists to understand these fans have no idea what a rebuild even is or just don’t want it because it makes Bergevin look worse or makes his leash shorter for putting our team in a situation where we have to do it. Look at the teams have won cups in the cap era. They’re doing it because they started with little and gradually built their way up. They also inject talent threw their system. We haven’t done that for years. We throw stupid money at whatever we can get our hands on and trade away young talent or overpay to try and stay relevant. The current players that we have developed and play a major role in 2018 are 30 years old and older. Gallagher, Drouin, and Chucky being the exceptions, even tho we continue to misuse Galchenyuk and now Drouin We’ve been chasing our tail and spinning in a circle Bergevin’s entire tenure, he’s been leaning on Carey Price for just about the entire time, and if Price doesn’t rebound, we’re in a lot of trouble because thats Marc Bergevin’s trump card.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Drouin trade was ridiculous. One of the dumbest trades I've seen in a while. Sergashev is the whole package and he's only 20. Drouin is small soft and incredibly overated. How people still defend this trade is mind numbing to me. Rather have a top 5 U-21 D going forward than Jonathan Drouin and its not even close

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

People who still have hope that bergevin will retool or whatever are just hurting themselves in the long run.

Guys a complete bozo and this team is going nowhere in the next 7-8 years with this guy in charge . No chance in the world we compete with this management. Maybe a couple first round exits or 2 . I know that's a very very successful season to most habs fans lol.

30 other teams out there trying to improve themselves and we get bargain bin straight ruining the teams present and future it's insane

 

[Kent Nilsson]

When did I say trade a 1st? Move on. You are cranky and not getting the point

You did say it in the post he quoted:

Target them with what? What do we have to trade that can net us 'grade A' prospects?

Our next pick? Trade Patch for another 1st. Our two early 2nd round picks. Picks we get next year? It’s not rocket science

Apparently its rocket science to follow your own gibberish.

 

[habsfan909]

I'm relatively confident that Drouin can hit 60pts as a top line winger playing with a legitimate counterman. It's not like he'll be playing less PP minutes anytime in the near future. I don't think many people would dispute that.

Elite goaltending is not nothing. We've seen just as many teams go absolutely nowhere because of weak or simply good goaltending. Look at the teams in the next round of the playoffs and tell me who has a goalie that isn't playing a significant part in their success. We can do a rebuild and still be bumped in the first round because of not having a #1D or a solid goaltender (Toronto being the easiest example).

Every team has question marks going into next season. Every team has holes to fill. It's not as simple as plugging in lottery picks to make the roster look good.

I'm not sure if pulling the plug is even a viable option given the new lottery system. Being as bad as possible with the hopes of becoming good through luck simply isn't going to work. For every Pittsburgh and Chicago, there's an Edmonton and a Phoenix. Ice a competitive team with a focus on building for the future. Move complimentary guys like Pacioretty/Shaw/Byron/Alzner for picks and prospects and draft smart this year (like the team did last year). Bolster that with good FA signings.

Maybe I'm just not a strong believer in tanking.

So you think we can trade Alzner for picks and prospects eh? That's a good one... You want to trade Alzner then you will need to trade our own picks with him.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I'm relatively confident that Drouin can hit 60pts as a top line winger playing with a legitimate counterman. It's not like he'll be playing less PP minutes anytime in the near future. I don't think many people would dispute that.

You need to be an offensive threat at 5 on 5 to put up points. You can hardly do better than what Drouin was doing last year. He was 16th in the league for 5v4 GF/60. He was 350th in the league 5v5. Fast forward to this year and he was 70th in the league and 514th in the league respectively. I'm not sure what other conclusion to draw than he's a limited offensive player who can't produce at even strength, and whose numbers were propped up by superior linemates in Tampa.

Elite goaltending is not nothing. We've seen just as many teams go absolutely nowhere because of weak or simply good goaltending. Look at the teams in the next round of the playoffs and tell me who has a goalie that isn't playing a significant part in their success. We can do a rebuild and still be bumped in the first round because of not having a #1D or a solid goaltender (Toronto being the easiest example).

You need goaltending. But good goaltending doesn't get you anywhere. It just doesn't kill you like bad goaltending will. It's a necessary condition for success. However, it can be provided by any number of players. Every single alternative that I gave to Price this off-season not only crushed Price's pathetic numbers, but they actually did really well. You need goaltending like you need water. That doesn't mean it makes sense to pay scotch prices for water: it's plentiful.

Every team has question marks going into next season. Every team has holes to fill. It's not as simple as plugging in lottery picks to make the roster look good.

I'm not sure if pulling the plug is even a viable option given the new lottery system. Being as bad as possible with the hopes of becoming good through luck simply isn't going to work. For every Pittsburgh and Chicago, there's an Edmonton and a Phoenix. Ice a competitive team with a focus on building for the future. Move complimentary guys like Pacioretty/Shaw/Byron/Alzner for picks and prospects and draft smart this year (like the team did last year). Bolster that with good FA signings.

Maybe I'm just not a strong believer in tanking.

This is a good time to tank. By tank I don't mean sell off everyone. Our team makeup is so fragile that I think by removing one or two guys (not even Weber or Price) we can guarantee ourselves a top 4 pick. Moving Pacioretty and Byron for futures would absolutely kill our offense: an offense that is already on life support.

I made this point in my Dahlin thread, but if we do land the 1 overall pick, then tanking becomes the clear option. The risk of the lottery system is already greatly reduced. Might as well go for broke and build around your superstar. Maybe you'll get two.

 

[Draft]

You need to be an offensive threat at 5 on 5 to put up points. You can hardly do better than what Drouin was doing last year. He was 16th in the league for 5v4 GF/60. He was 350th in the league 5v5. Fast forward to this year and he was 70th in the league and 514th in the league respectively. I'm not sure what other conclusion to draw than he's a limited offensive player who can't produce at even strength, and whose numbers were propped up by superior linemates in Tampa.

You need goaltending. But good goaltending doesn't get you anywhere. It just doesn't kill you like bad goaltending will. It's a necessary condition for success. However, it can be provided by any number of players. Every single alternative that I gave to Price this off-season not only crushed Price's pathetic numbers, but they actually did really well. You need goaltending like you need water. That doesn't mean it makes sense to pay scotch prices for water: it's plentiful.

This is a good time to tank. By tank I don't mean sell off everyone. Our team makeup is so fragile that I think by removing one or two guys (not even Weber or Price) we can guarantee ourselves a top 4 pick. Moving Pacioretty and Byron for futures would absolutely kill our offense: an offense that is already on life support.

I made this point in my Dahlin thread, but if we do land the 1 overall pick, then tanking becomes the clear option. The risk of the lottery system is already greatly reduced. Might as well go for broke and build around your superstar. Maybe you'll get two.

I'm really not prepared to throw Drouin under the bus after this disastrous season. Pretty much nothing went well (for anyone) and I

I think we're arguing for a very similar type of process but just calling it different things. I'm fine with moving older core players so long as we get tangible assets in return that can provide clear cut contributions and help in the near future. I'm good with bringing in more draft picks and playing young guys in important roles. However, I'm not interested in blowing it all up - or simply moving out top players for picks - and sucking hard to get a good pick year after year until player values are in the toilet, the losing culture and negative press is rampant, and we have a GM simply rolling the dice and hoping for a player to fall into their lap through the draft (yes Bergevin sucks and is essentially doing this right now).

I don't think it's that far fetched to believe that patching holes at center and having younger players develop (our entire two bottom lines and Mete/Juulsen) is going to make the team competitive for as long as Price, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Drouin, and Weber are effective players.