Proposal: Zibanejad to the Avs

[Shootertooter]

You can argue all you want about the OP but considering how deep this draft is the Avs will draft a real good piece for their 2nd line with that pick . They will also have a cost controlled asset for years to come . If the NYR continue to rebuild after this season I would like to make a big trade for a few pieces and pay extra to send cap their way

Zibanejad ,Kreider and Shattenkirk for Lucic + Draisaitl and Nurse

Oiler fans won,t like it but I see a more balance team after the trade

Why would the Rangers take on Lucic's cap? Take Shatty out of the deal to cancel cap going Oil's way.
I would consider Zib/Kreider for Drai/Nurse....picks/prospects close any gaps.
NY is not taking Lucic on for 5 or 6yrs. To hell with that.

 

[Shootertooter]

A lot of the proposals in this thread are for the spring; when we'll know where the Ottawa pick will land & you'll have more time to assess how ready your young Cs are for life after Zibby.

I think for the immediate time being after such a trade, NY would be a true bottom feeder in the league for at least a short while. But I'm not against it totally.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

But what do you suggest we do if the scouts suck?

And I'm not writing anyone off, I'm just looking at what skillsets we have in-house & which we're still lacking and we don’t have many top tier offensive talents...and the ones we do have are wingers or blueliners.


I feel like I said this exact same thing about ROR

If we don't see results by the end of next year (200+ games for most of the current youngsters), then we assess what we still need at that point, and go after it aggressively. But, a lot can change in 18 months, so I'd rather not try to project what issues we will still need to address then. Depending on how the guys continue to develop and whether our drafting issues are actually fixed, we could also be in a position to trade someone in a one-for-one for what we need, rather than having to move multiple assets. That's why I want to use both 1st round draft picks in 2019 and stock up on high end prospects while we have the opportunity, so that we already have the replacement for whatever youngster ends up getting moved. Trade Compher/Kerfoot/Kamanev/whoever for whatever we still need during the 2020 off-season, then give the D+1 2019 1st round draft picks the opportunity to fill the hole left by the trade.

I'm also not sure why having our top tier offensive talents on the wings and blueline is a bad thing, especially if our 2C position is at least semi-capable. All Kerfoot/Compher/Kamanev/whoever needs to do is not suck, and we're still a dangerous team, assuming our youngsters progress as hoped.

 

[cgf]

Something around the Av's pick and Hayes seems more agreeable.

Hayes isn't worth tapping into the asset pool for, to Colorado. We should save our futures for when a Zibby (or better) next becomes available; not whittle them away on rentals who aren't big enough upgrades over Kerfoot & Soderberg to solve our issue long term.

 

[cgf]

I think for the immediate time being after such a trade, NY would be a true bottom feeder in the league for at least a short while. But I'm not against it totally.

Sorta...as I’m still expecting the bread man to make his bread in Manhattan next season to offset some of the departures of Hayes / Zucc / Kreider / Zibby, and Hank will always be Hank...but is that really a bad thing if you did bottom out next season?

You’ve added a lot of interesting secondary pieces, good core pieces, some intriguing high upside gambles...I loved both Kravtsov & Miller last year...and now you just need a couple of franchise cornerstone type talents; that typically require top 5 picks to find; to complete the future core. And to keep pumping young talent into your pipeline with those surplus picks; so that you’re well supplied when it comes time for you to trade for that last missing core-aged-piece that Zibby or Drae would be to us.

Though with this draft, two 6-10 picks should be enough for just 1 top 5 pick in 2020 to be enough for you to switch from assembling your young core, to developing it and starting to make serious strides in 2020-2021.

 

[TGWL]

Well this is a useless exercise because Rags fans think Zibs is worth OTT 1st +. He's not. I don't see how this trade goes forward.

Some... You make it sound like our enter fan-base thinks Zibby is worth the Sens #1 pick. Majority don't, unless that pick looks a lot different than a top 5.

 

[cgf]

If we don't see results by the end of next year (200+ games for most of the current youngsters), then we assess what we still need at that point, and go after it aggressively. But, a lot can change in 18 months, so I'd rather not try to project what issues we will still need to address then. Depending on how the guys continue to develop and whether our drafting issues are actually fixed, we could also be in a position to trade someone in a one-for-one for what we need, rather than having to move multiple assets. That's why I want to use both 1st round draft picks in 2019 and stock up on high end prospects while we have the opportunity, so that we already have the replacement for whatever youngster ends up getting moved. Trade Compher/Kerfoot/Kamanev/whoever for whatever we still need during the 2020 off-season, then give the D+1 2019 1st round draft picks the opportunity to fill the hole left by the trade.

I'm also not sure why having our top tier offensive talents on the wings and blueline is a bad thing, especially if our 2C position is at least semi-capable. All Kerfoot/Compher/Kamanev/whoever needs to do is not suck, and we're still a dangerous team, assuming our youngsters progress as hoped.

I guess I just don't see what the benefit is. If the things necessary for sitting tight to work out, go right; then trading Timmins & the 6-10th OA pick or Timmins & Bowers/Kerfoot & the 15-25th OA pick this summer for Zibby, would also work out. Whereas if the things that could sabotage my scenario go wrong, then they would also sabotage the sit tight until the summer of 2020 strategy.

Having blueliners or wingers with top tier talent isn't a problem. Not having a Center with top-tier talent, other than MacKinnon, is. Not saying that Kerfoot / Soderberg / Kamenev suck at all, just that they're not top tier talents. And while we're a fun & dangerous team, I think we need either a top tier #1 blueliner or a top tier 1b to Center our 2nd line; for us to become a team that can win cups. And it's much easier & cheaper to add a top tier 1b C than #1 blueliner if Makar doesn't become ASAP.

 

[TGWL]

With how many talented young centers y’all have, I can tell you from experience that you learn to live with cashing in on the older ones to make room for the younger ones and surround them with a more cohesive team

Especially if snag another top 10 C in this talented draft

Such as?

UFA Hayes? What happens if we don't keep him?
Andersson? Going nowhere near the #1C
Chytil? I'm not sure he'll be a #1C. I like him better on the wing with talented players.
Strome?
Howden? Has been great for us but he's more of a 3C right now.

 

[Kupo]

You can argue all you want about the OP but considering how deep this draft is the Avs will draft a real good piece for their 2nd line with that pick . They will also have a cost controlled asset for years to come . If the NYR continue to rebuild after this season I would like to make a big trade for a few pieces and pay extra to send cap their way

Zibanejad ,Kreider and Shattenkirk for Lucic + Draisaitl and Nurse

Oiler fans won,t like it but I see a more balance team after the trade

What the hell is this abomination of a proposal?

It's absolutely hideous. Please kill it so whatever disease is affecting it doesn't spread. It seriously needs to die.

 

[cgf]

Such as?

UFA Hayes? What happens if we don't keep him?
Andersson? Going nowhere near the #1C
Chytil? I'm not sure he'll be a #1C. I like him better on the wing with talented players.
Strome?
Howden? Has been great for us but he's more of a 3C right now.

Chytil, Andersson & Howden.

I tend to like my skilled Czechs and Chytil certainly fits that bill lol. There's certainly still question marks about whether he'll be a high-end 1C and if so, when he'll be ready to start filling that role for you, but I think he's got a reasonable chance of getting there and you'd still have the rest of the season to assess just where he is in his development before this hypothetical trade would happen...I also think you'd spend either your pick or the OTT pick on one of the high upside Centers in this draft; which would cover you in case Chytil did end up better on the wing.

And if that 1C spot is covered; Andersson & Howden should give you a great young 1-2-3 punch to move into the 2020s with. I like both more than I ever did Hayes or Strome.

 

[Avs44]

A mid to late 1st and Timmins isn't enough for the Rangers to let Zib go.

I didn't say it was. It was an example of the flaw in the poster's reasoning I was responding to.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I guess I just don't see what the benefit is. If the things necessary for sitting tight to work out, go right; then trading Timmins & the 6-10th OA pick or Timmins & Bowers/Kerfoot & the 15-25th OA pick this summer for Zibby, would also work out. Whereas if the things that could sabotage my scenario go wrong, then they would also sabotage the sit tight until the summer of 2020 strategy.

Having blueliners or wingers with top tier talent isn't a problem. Not having a Center with top-tier talent, other than MacKinnon, is. Not saying that Kerfoot / Soderberg / Kamenev suck at all, just that they're not top tier talents. And while we're a fun & dangerous team, I think we need either a top tier #1 blueliner or a top tier 1b to Center our 2nd line; for us to become a team that can win cups. And it's much easier & cheaper to add a top tier 1b C than #1 blueliner if Makar doesn't become one as a sophomore.

But, if my strategy goes right, we still add a likely top 10 pick to the roster in 2020-21, and still have a deep prospect pool to fill out the roster or make additional moves. If Zibby goes right, what's the next step in your plan? How do we continue to get the young talent we need to be contenders for more than the next few years?

And, how many teams right now have a 2C that is "top tier" that they didn't draft themselves? Top tier guys comes from the draft much more frequently than they get traded.

 

[TGWL]

Chytil, Andersson & Howden.

I tend to like my skilled Czechs and Chytil certainly fits that bill lol. There's certainly still question marks about whether he'll be a high-end 1C and if so, when he'll be ready to start filling that role for you, but I think he's got a reasonable chance of getting there and you'd still have the rest of the season to assess just where he is in his development before this hypothetical trade would happen...I also think you'd spend either your pick or the OTT pick on one of the high upside Centers in this draft; which would cover you in case Chytil did end up better on the wing.

And if that 1C spot is covered; Andersson & Howden should give you a great young 1-2-3 punch to move into the 2020s with. I like both more than I ever did Hayes or Strome.

I don't see Chytil ever being a #1C. I think his future has winger written all over it. He was never a center to begin with. I think we have a lot of players who can play Center, maybe better at wing, but we don't have a lot of high end centers after Zibby, and Hayes to some extent.

 

[barr7622]

Makar and the Ottawa 1st aren't "a" first round pick and "one of [the Avs'] top 5 prospects", though. This is the Avs' best prospect by a country mile, and one of the more promising drafted prospects in the league, and a pick looking to be top 5/10 in the draft with lottery odds at being top 3.

I would certainly move the Avs own 1st round pick, which is "a" first rounder, and Connor Timmins, who is certainly one of the Avs' top 5 prospects, for Zibanejad.

My point was that NYR 1st + Lias Andersson is < Ottowa 2019 1st + Makar

 

[cgf]

I don't see Chytil ever being a #1C. I think his future has winger written all over it. He was never a center to begin with. I think we have a lot of players who can play Center, maybe better at wing, but we don't have a lot of high end centers after Zibby, and Hayes to some extent.

I think the talent is there like with Necas & Aho...and again I suspect you'd grab another prospect with that kind of talent to cover for Chytil ending up better on the wing. As for the others, I'd take Andersson & Howden over Hayes pretty comfortably, and Andersson could well surpass Zibby as a 1b C.

But maybe the rest of the season changes that

 

[cgf]

But, if my strategy goes right, we still add a likely top 10 pick to the roster in 2020-21, and still have a deep prospect pool to fill out the roster or make additional moves. If Zibby goes right, what's the next step in your plan? How do we continue to get the young talent we need to be contenders for more than the next few years?

And, how many teams right now have a 2C that is "top tier" that they didn't draft themselves? Top tier guys comes from the draft much more frequently than they get traded.

Since in your scenario the OTT pick* is taking Zibby's spot, the only difference to our prospect pool will be the removal of Timmins. That doesn't take us from a deep prospect pool to the cubbards being bare again. That doesn't even stop RHD from being a strength.

And the next step would be pretty much the same, use our cap space, picks & prospects to make whatever future moves are needed if the kids development isn't getting the job done once we have all of the key pieces in place.


*if COL pick + Bowers / Kerfoot doesn't get it done & the OTT pick isn't top 4 or 5

 

[TGWL]

I think the talent is there like with Necas & Aho...and again I suspect you'd grab another prospect with that kind of talent to cover for Chytil ending up better on the wing. As for the others, I'd take Andersson & Howden over Hayes pretty comfortably, and Andersson could well surpass Zibby as a 1b C.

But maybe the rest of the season changes that

I think you see a lot more potential in Andersson than most of us. I'm not saying I regret the pick or anything, but Andersson surpassing Zibby is not likely to happen if you ask most NYR fans, and that's including his full potential reached. Also, I think you're underrating Hayes. He's easily head and shoulders above them. The only thing those centers have over Hayes is age and contract for a rebuilding team.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Since in your scenario the OTT pick* is taking Zibby's spot, the only difference to our prospect pool will be the removal of Timmins. That doesn't take us from a deep prospect pool to the cubbards being bare again. That doesn't even stop RHD from being a strength.

And the next step would be pretty much the same, use our cap space, picks & prospects to make whatever future moves are needed if the kids developing isn't getting the job done.


*if COL pick + Bowers / Kerfoot doesn't get it done & the OTT pick isn't top 4 or 5

Not really, because I don't expect the Ottawa pick to be ready to be a top 6 player before Zibby's current contract expires. In my scenario, we let the current crop of youngsters who are a little further along in development continue to get an honest shot to see if they can grow into the 2C role and make acquiring someone like Zibby unnecessary in the first place. So, really, Zibby's spot would be taken by Kamanev, or Compher, or Kerfoot/Jost/some other unlikely candidate, while the Sens pick is still part of our prospect pool. Timmins + a top 10 pick prospect makes our prospect pool a lot deeper than it would be if we trade Timmins + pick for Zibby, while the on ice product might not be much different.

 

[cgf]

Not really, because I don't expect the Ottawa pick to be ready to be a top 6 player before Zibby's current contract expires. In my scenario, we let the current crop of youngsters who are a little further along in development continue to get an honest shot to see if they can grow into the 2C role and make acquiring someone like Zibby unnecessary in the first place. So, really, Zibby's spot would be taken by Kamanev, or Compher, or Kerfoot/Jost/some other unlikely candidate, while the Sens pick is still part of our prospect pool. Timmins + a top 10 pick prospect makes our prospect pool a lot deeper than it would be if we trade Timmins + pick for Zibby, while the on ice product might not be much different.

I just don't see anyone in that group who's likely to ever fit the bill as a genuine 1b C. Some long-shot might pay off down the road, but I'm not betting any of MacK's prime or sweetheart-deal on that. Jost doesn't have the skating, Kerf lacks the defensive game & size. I love Jimmothy & Kam is having a very good season, but both are more Soda than ROR if they hit their ceilings.

Could one of them become an adequate 2C for a bubble team? Sure, kerf is almost there already, but not on a cup contender...unless we add an elite #1 and so no longer need great forward depth. You're just putting way too much pressure on Makar hitting his ceiling by his 2nd NHL season...or conceding the first few years of our cup-window.

 

[cgf]

I think you see a lot more potential in Andersson than most of us. I'm not saying I regret the pick or anything, but Andersson surpassing Zibby is not likely to happen if you ask most NYR fans, and that's including his full potential reached. Also, I think you're underrating Hayes. He's easily head and shoulders above them. The only thing those centers have over Hayes is age and contract for a rebuilding team.

You may well be right. I've never been very high on Hayes and find it awfully curious that he's having this great season in a contract year. So I don't think that bar is all that high. And I don't think surpassing Zibby is likely, but I think he has the talent to do so. If he's your #2...especially with Howden as your #3...that should be a really good spot to be IMO.

 

[CobraAcesS]

With how many talented young centers y’all have, I can tell you from experience that you learn to live with cashing in on the older ones to make room for the younger ones and surround them with a more cohesive team

Especially if snag another top 10 C in this talented draft

Outside of the bottle kids (that's for you), just stay away from Makar and Z, and we're cool.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I just don't see anyone in that group who's likely to ever fit the bill as a genuine 1b C. Some long-shot might pay off down the road, but I'm not betting any of MacK's prime or sweetheart-deal on that. Jost doesn't have the skating, Kerf lacks the defensive game & size. I love Jimmothy & Kam is having a very good season, but both are more Soda than ROR if they hit their ceilings.

Could one of them become an adequate 2C for a bubble team? Sure, kerf is almost there already, but not on a cup contender...unless we add an elite #1 and so no longer need great forward depth. You're just putting way too much pressure on Makar hitting his ceiling by his 2nd NHL season...or conceding the first few years of our cup-window.

Just because you don't see anyone right now, doesn't mean we shouldn't still put them to the test so we can actually be sure whether you're right.

And, I'll gladly concede the first few years of a Cup window in exchange for keeping that window open for an extra decade. That's my focus, not on trying to maximize the next 5 years while Mack is cheap.

 

[cgf]

Just because you don't see anyone right now, doesn't mean we shouldn't still put them to the test so we can actually be sure whether you're right.

And, I'll gladly concede the first few years of a Cup window in exchange for keeping that window open for an extra decade. That's my focus, not on trying to maximize the next 5 years while Mack is cheap.

Sure, and that’s what’s happening this season. Kerf is getting his shot and Jost has already shown his skating is insufficient. So we can make this necessary trade in the summer; since there’s no downside to Kamenev or Bowers developing into cup caliber 1b C’s down the road. As that would just mean that Sakic would get to make another chop-em-for-parts trade to reload our pipeline again down the road...extending our window for an extra 2 decades!

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Sure, and that’s what’s happening this season. Kerf is getting his shot and Jost has already shown his skating is insufficient. So we can make this necessary trade in the summer; since there’s no downside to Kamenev or Bowers developing into cup caliber 1b C’s down the road. As that would just mean that Sakic would get to make another chop-em-for-parts trade to reload our pipeline again down the road...extending our window for an extra 2 decades!

If the assessment is still on going, I'd love to know how you can call the trade "necessary" at this point. I also don't agree with your assessment that Jost's skating is insufficient. Just because it doesn't meet some artificial standard you have in your mind doesn't mean he can't still be extremely effective at the NHL level.

 

[cgf]

If the assessment is still on going, I'd love to know how you can call the trade "necessary" at this point. I also don't agree with your assessment that Jost's skating is insufficient. Just because it doesn't meet some artificial standard you have in your mind doesn't mean he can't still be extremely effective at the NHL level.

“I suspect will be necessary”; they’re already showing things. Things that we can start drawing conclusions from. They still have time to change those conclusions before a trade would happen, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore what we’re seeing.

Like Jost; he has already shown that his skating is insufficient to make an impact at Center in the NHL. He looks really appealing as a winger, but we can be pretty confident in predicting that he won’t solve our C issue. This isn’t an arbitrary standard, it’s the reality of what his time at C showed.