Proposal: Zibanejad to the Avs

[HoweHullOrr]

Rangers aren't moving Zibanejad, Avs aren't moving that pick. /thread

I'm definitely surprised with Avs fans opinions of Zibanejad though. Pretty obvious based on these posts that you don't watch him play. He is that good

Never understood the Brassard for Zibanejad trade. Well, I guess that's not entirely true. I guess the Senators saved a few bucks which is probably the explanation.

 

[cgf]

I think we're saying the same things, just in different ways. I completely agree that Sakic should be exploring every potential option to make the team better, but that's pretty much the baseline expectation of his job as GM. I'm pretty sure he's already got guys targeted, I just don't think the price is going to be right on the guys we'd actually want. We're still early in the building part of the rebuild, being terrified of screwing it up is completely normal. But fear is a bad reason to make a hockey trade.

And, we have 5 years of Mack at 6.3m, including this one, and 3 with Landy also being cheap. We should make at least one really good run (2020-21) before we're even over $25m, and will still have some really talented youngsters still finding their NHL games to fill in the bottom 6 as current youngsters move up/out of the lineup. That's how you build through the draft, you never stop adding to your prospect pool. There will always be injuries, there will always be guys who want to explore free agency or price themselves out of town, you need a steady supply of good young talent to feed the machine, so you aren't forced to scrape the bottom of the UFA barrel to fill out your team. With the AHL team now up in Loveland, playing essentially the same style, and our scouting staff being much improved (thus far), I think we're set up to be contenders for a long time to come, we just need to let the systems that have been put in place work.

You’re acting like making 1 trade prohibits a team from having young talent and building through the draft. Ottawa botched the Duchene trade horribly and they’re still awash in young talent for christ’s sake. We’d still have a full set of draft picks with which to keep adding young talent and a strong prospect pool. Making 1 trade that resolves the issue long term won’t leave the cubbards bare again. We can trade either package I’ve suggested in this thread and still do all of that.


I just look at the teams who’ve won cups and none of them did it by just sitting on their hands and waiting for cups to come to them. The Kings went out & got Carter & Richard; the Hawks went out & gotta Hossa & Soupy; Pittsburgh went out & got Kessel. They all clearly needed something & proactivey addressed it & so where able to capitalize on their window. Whereas STL, Minny & SJ just kept running it back or fiddling on the margins and they ended up squandering their cores’ primes.

And unless we get Hughes to give us a cup caliber 1-2 punch down the middle, we will need to go out & get that cup caliber 1b C...cause otherwise we need to find an elite #1 blueliner, and those are much more expensive / take longer to develop.

 

[flyfysher]

You’re acting like making 1 trade prohibits a team from having young talent and building through the draft. Ottawa botched the Duchene trade horribly and they’re still awash in young talent for christ’s sake. We’d still have a full set of draft picks with which to keep adding young talent and a strong prospect pool. Making 1 trade that resolves the issue long term won’t leave the cubbards bare again. We can trade either package I’ve suggested in this thread and still do all of that.


I just look at the teams who’ve won cups and none of them did it by just sitting on their hands and waiting for cups to come to them. The Kings went out & got Carter & Richard; the Hawks went out & gotta Hossa & Soupy; Pittsburgh went out & got Kessel. They all clearly needed something & proactivey addressed it & so where able to capitalize on their window. Whereas STL, Minny & SJ just kept running it back or fiddling on the margins and they ended up squandering their cores’ primes.

And unless we get Hughes to give us a cup caliber 1-2 punch down the middle, we will need to go out & get that cup caliber 1b C...cause otherwise we need to find an elite #1 blueliner, and those are much more expensive / take longer to develop.

I'm taking your post to the Avs board (Proposals, rumors) as I don't want to hijack this thread anymore.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

You’re acting like making 1 trade prohibits a team from having young talent and building through the draft. Ottawa botched the Duchene trade horribly and they’re still awash in young talent for christ’s sake. We’d still have a full set of draft picks with which to keep adding young talent and a strong prospect pool. Making 1 trade that resolves the issue long term won’t leave the cubbards bare again. We can trade either package I’ve suggested in this thread and still do all of that.


I just look at the teams who’ve won cups and none of them did it by just sitting on their hands and waiting for cups to come to them. The Kings went out & got Carter & Richard; the Hawks went out & gotta Hossa & Soupy; Pittsburgh went out & got Kessel. They all clearly needed something & proactivey addressed it & so where able to capitalize on their window. Whereas STL, Minny & SJ just kept running it back or fiddling on the margins and they ended up squandering their cores’ primes.

And unless we get Hughes to give us a cup caliber 1-2 punch down the middle, we will need to go out & get that cup caliber 1b C...cause otherwise we need to find an elite #1 blueliner, and those are much more expensive / take longer to develop.

Zibb is nowhere NEAR any of those players. If he was, I'd be more inclined to target him. Also, most of those trades came when the team has already established themselves. Now, if we finish this season >100 points and win or be competitive in the first round, then its time to consider either make a trade or get a big FA. I strongly prefer the FA route since we have Mack's + Landy's contract, Girard's ELC giving us this path in the short term, and keeping our picks to mitigate risk of losing pieces in the middle/long term.

 

[cgf]

Zibb is nowhere NEAR any of those players. If he was, I'd be more inclined to target him. Also, most of those trades came when the team has already established themselves. Now, if we finish this season >100 points and win or be competitive in the first round, then its time to consider either make a trade or get a big FA. I strongly prefer the FA route since we have Mack's + Landy's contract, Girard's ELC giving us this path in the short term, and keeping our picks to mitigate risk of losing pieces in the middle/long term.

Zibby’s very comparable to the centers that the King’s brought in, I’d take him ahead of Richards and he’s not behind Carter at that time, by much.

His numbers have been deflated by the defensive teams he’s played on & his more Soda like usage. He can drive the play better than Kerfoot while being able to help Soda with the heavy lifting and would look great between Jost & Jimmothy / Kaut / Kerf / Kakko / Podkolzin / Stone / Silfverberg...FAs we’d still be able to pursue since Zibby is signed at a good price for 3 more years.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

You’re acting like making 1 trade prohibits a team from having young talent and building through the draft. Ottawa botched the Duchene trade horribly and they’re still awash in young talent for christ’s sake. We’d still have a full set of draft picks with which to keep adding young talent and a strong prospect pool. Making 1 trade that resolves the issue long term won’t leave the cubbards bare again. We can trade either package I’ve suggested in this thread and still do all of that.


I just look at the teams who’ve won cups and none of them did it by just sitting on their hands and waiting for cups to come to them. The Kings went out & got Carter & Richard; the Hawks went out & gotta Hossa & Soupy; Pittsburgh went out & got Kessel. They all clearly needed something & proactivey addressed it & so where able to capitalize on their window. Whereas STL, Minny & SJ just kept running it back or fiddling on the margins and they ended up squandering their cores’ primes.

And unless we get Hughes to give us a cup caliber 1-2 punch down the middle, we will need to go out & get that cup caliber 1b C...cause otherwise we need to find an elite #1 blueliner, and those are much more expensive / take longer to develop.

Ottawa is also currently in last place in the East, so not sure we should follow their example, but still most of their "young talent" are their draft picks from the last few years, including quite a few in rounds other than the 1st. We acquired most of our young talent through the Duchene and ROR trades (or waivers/UFA), and still aren't really sure if drafting Mikko was just plain dumb luck, or if we can actually rely on the draft to provide the steady supply of talent that we need to contend for more than just a couple of years. To figure that out, we need to be patient and see how the system is working. Otherwise, we'll contend for a few years and end up right back where we were during most of the Duchene years, scraping the bottom of the UFA barrel to fill out the team.

Hossa and Campbell both signed as UFAs. I'm all for exploring the UFA market. Panarin and Stone could both be good adds, at the right price.

Kessel, Richards and Carter were all trying to be dumped by a team looking to rebuild and came with a hefty cap hit that limited the market greatly. Who is really out there that fits that mold that's still young enough to be part of the team for more than a few years? Unless Edmonton wants to do your swap of Draisaitl for Barrie+, I just don't see it. Who am I missing that might be remotely available for the kind of packages you're suggesting we give up?

 

[Eltuna]

Zibby’s very comparable to the centers that the King’s brought in, I’d take him ahead of Richards and he’s not behind Carter at that time, by much.

His numbers have been deflated by the defensive teams he’s played on & his more Soda like usage. He can drive the play better than Kerfoot while being able to help Soda with the heavy lifting and would look great between Jost & Jimmothy / Kaut / Kerf / Kakko / Podkolzin / Stone / Silfverberg...FAs we’d still be able to pursue since Zibby is signed at a good price for 3 more years.

I like Zibanejad too but I think your memory is a little fuzzy on Richards and Carter at that time. Richards was a Selke level defensive Center that had a ppg year, many years above 60 points, and had a fantastic playoffs for Philly in 2010. Carter was a former 46 goal scorer, also good defensively, and coming off a 36 goal season. There’s a full tier between a Zibanejad and those guys back then, it really isn’t very close. To put it into better perspective Richards made the 2010 team Canada Olympic team and Carter was the last cut. They were really, really good back then.

 

[cgf]

Ottawa is also currently in last place in the East, so not sure we should follow their example, but still most of their "young talent" are their draft picks from the last few years, including quite a few in rounds other than the 1st. We acquired most of our young talent through the Duchene and ROR trades (or waivers/UFA), and still aren't really sure if drafting Mikko was just plain dumb luck, or if we can actually rely on the draft to provide the steady supply of talent that we need to contend for more than just a couple of years. To figure that out, we need to be patient and see how the system is working. Otherwise, we'll contend for a few years and end up right back where we were during most of the Duchene years, scraping the bottom of the UFA barrel to fill out the team.

Hossa and Campbell both signed as UFAs. I'm all for exploring the UFA market. Panarin and Stone could both be good adds, at the right price.

Kessel, Richards and Carter were all trying to be dumped by a team looking to rebuild and came with a hefty cap hit that limited the market greatly. Who is really out there that fits that mold that's still young enough to be part of the team for more than a few years? Unless Edmonton wants to do your swap of Draisaitl for Barrie+, I just don't see it. Who am I missing that might be remotely available for the kind of packages you're suggesting we give up?

I'm not sure I follow. If we can't draft well moving forward; then wouldn't that be more reason to strike while we can, instead of sitting around to find out that we can't draft well enough?

If there was a Zibby on the FA market I'd be all for going about this via FA, but (unfortunately) the only FAs that are good enough to help are wingers or Duchene. Which is why I'm all for pursuing an FA winger, but that wouldn't negate the need to upgrade on Kerfoot down the middle. MacK, Zibby, Soda, & Kamenev is a cup caliber center lineup, and Mikko, Landy, Jost, Jimmothy, Kaut, the OTT pick or Kerfoot + our pick, could be a cup caliber set of wingers for them...especially if we signed a Stone or Silfverberg in FA as well.

...though if Chia wants to go out with a bang, I won't complain

I like Zibanejad too but I think your memory is a little fuzzy on Richards and Carter at that time. Richards was a Selke level defensive Center that had a ppg year, many years above 60 points, and had a fantastic playoffs for Philly in 2010. Carter was a former 46 goal scorer, also good defensively, and coming off a 36 goal season. There’s a full tier between a Zibanejad and those guys back then, it really isn’t very close. To put it into better perspective Richards made the 2010 team Canada Olympic team and Carter was the last cut. They were really, really good back then.

It's possible, but I think Zibby can produce 55-60 points for us with the kind of opportunities he'd get behind the big line. While being a very good defensive guy as well. I don't think circumstances have let us see the best of Zibby yet...and I say this as he's on pace for 69 points.

 

[Eltuna]

I'm not sure I follow. If we can't draft well moving forward; then wouldn't that be more reason to strike while we can, instead of sitting around to find out that we can't draft well enough?

If there was a Zibby on the FA market I'd be all for going about this via FA, but (unfortunately) the only FAs that are good enough to help are wingers or Duchene. Which is why I'm all for pursuing an FA winger, but that wouldn't negate the need to upgrade on Kerfoot down the middle. MacK, Zibby, Soda, & Kamenev is a cup caliber center lineup, and Mikko, Landy, Jost, Jimmothy, Kaut, the OTT pick or Kerfoot + our pick, could be a cup caliber set of wingers for them...especially if we signed a Stone or Silfverberg in FA as well.

...though if Chia wants to go out with a bang, I won't complain


It's possible, but I think Zibby can produce 55-60 points for us with the kind of opportunities he'd get behind the big line. While being a very good defensive guy as well. I don't think circumstances have let us see the best of Zibby yet...and I say this as he's on pace for 69 points.

I think that about Zibanejad as well, I was the one who started this whole Zibanejad to Avs thing and would love to see it happen. He’s not Carter and Richards good though, those guys are definitely an entire tier ahead of what Zibanejad is. Richards in that 2010 playoffs for Philly was something else, and Carter was arguably one of Canada’s greatest goal scorers at that time (going into the olympics he along with Iggy, Heatley, and Marleau were considered Canada’s top snipers).

 

[cgf]

I think that about Zibanejad as well, I was the one who started this whole Zibanejad to Avs thing and would love to see it happen. He’s not Carter and Richards good though, those guys are definitely an entire tier ahead of what Zibanejad is. Richards in that 2010 playoffs for Philly was something else, and Carter was arguably one of Canada’s greatest goal scorers at that time (going into the olympics he along with Iggy, Heatley, and Marleau were considered Canada’s top snipers).

Richards was big for LA, but I don't think he was still at that same level. Carter was still that same caliber of player when LA got him...which is why I agreed that he was a cut above Zibby when pressed on it...but I don't think the same is true of Richards, despite the big role he played.

Though I'm probably just letting how fast he fell off that cliff taint my memories of how good he was when they first added him.

 

[Eltuna]

Richards was big for LA, but I don't think he was still at that same level. Carter was still that same caliber of player when LA got him...which is why I agreed that he was a cut above Zibby when pressed on it...but I don't think the same is true of Richards, despite the big role he played.

Though I'm probably just letting how fast he fell off that cliff taint my memories of how good he was when they first added him.

Richards decline was swift and unpredictable, I’m talking 2011 Richards, who would be comparable to 2018 Zibanejad (i.e who they were before they got traded). You could make the case Zibanejad would be better over the course of many years and I would agree with that but that’s using huge amounts of hindsight in our favour. But who they were at the time of the trades (if were talking about a hypothetical Zibanejad trade happening tomorrow), that’s Richards all day. Richards prime was a Center version of Landeskog but even better.

 

[cgf]

Richards decline was swift and unpredictable, I’m talking 2011 Richards, who would be comparable to 2018 Zibanejad (i.e who they were before they got traded). You could make the case Zibanejad would be better over the course of many years and I would agree with that but that’s using huge amounts of hindsight in our favour. But who they were at the time of the trades (if were talking about a hypothetical Zibanejad trade happening tomorrow), that’s Richards all day. Richards prime was a Center version of Landeskog but even better.

I see what you're saying. I was comparing them more in terms of the impact that Richards actually ended up having for the kings vs the impact I'd project Zibby to have centering Jost & Jimmothy (or Kaut) for us if we did acquire him after the lottery. Rather than their respective resumes at the time of (real or hypothetical) acquisition.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I'm not sure I follow. If we can't draft well moving forward; then wouldn't that be more reason to strike while we can, instead of sitting around to find out that we can't draft well enough?

If there was a Zibby on the FA market I'd be all for going about this via FA, but (unfortunately) the only FAs that are good enough to help are wingers or Duchene. Which is why I'm all for pursuing an FA winger, but that wouldn't negate the need to upgrade on Kerfoot down the middle. MacK, Zibby, Soda, & Kamenev is a cup caliber center lineup, and Mikko, Landy, Jost, Jimmothy, Kaut, the OTT pick or Kerfoot + our pick, could be a cup caliber set of wingers for them...especially if we signed a Stone or Silfverberg in FA as well.

...though if Chia wants to go out with a bang, I won't complain


It's possible, but I think Zibby can produce 55-60 points for us with the kind of opportunities he'd get behind the big line. While being a very good defensive guy as well. I don't think circumstances have let us see the best of Zibby yet...and I say this as he's on pace for 69 points.

The first player drafted by the revamped scouting department was Mikko. AJ Greer is currently scoring at a PPG pace in the AHL at 21 years old. Meloche looks promising too, but still hasn't even gotten a single NHL game. Jost is in his second NHL season at 20 years old, and is still growing into his role. Beyond that, we're still waiting to see how the picks are going to perform if/when they are finally ready to contribute. So, it's still too early to say that our draft problems are definitely fixed, but there are reasons to be optimistic.

And, I agree that we will probably need to upgrade Kerfoot, eventually, I'm just not convinced that it should be our top priority right now, or that we definitely need to look outside the organization to do it. I think our top priority should be evaluating the youngsters we currently have, and adding more talent to the prospect pool. Once we finish the evaluation in a year or two, we'll have that many more pieces, that much further along in the development process, to move for what we still need. I'm also hoping that the Seattle expansion draft presents some good opportunities that don't appear to be there right now.

 

[slimbob8]

1st + Makar?

There's 8 pages in this thread but I think I'm gonna go ahead and stop reading right here if this is how it's starting in post #2...

 

[Mrb1p]

Lol, love Zibby, but he's not worth a shot at Hughes.

 

[Meeqs]

The Rangers, realistically, don’t want to trade Zibanajad.




Maybe Not.

That offer is straight up ****ing trash. Embarrassingly bad proposal.

I don’t think you realistically understand the value of a 25 year old RH 1C signed @ 5.3m for the next 4 seasons.

Rangers have no desire to move him. Gorton has picked 5 times in the 1st round over the last two seasons. Zuccarello and Hayes can be traded for additional 1sts if/when Gorton shops them.

If you want a player a team doesn’t want to trade, then you’re not paying fair market value. You’re paying beyond that.

The Avs shouldn’t move the Sens pick. And without it they’re not going to sway Gorton into trading him. And as a Rangers fan I’m copacetic with that.

I think it depends on how you view bowers and it may be right he could probably get an additional asset but one area where we disagree is I don't see Zibby as a true 1c, maybe fringe but if Zibby is your 1c then you're likely a bad team but he would be a solid 2c on a good team.

I hope for the Rags sake you're right about Hayes and Zuc getting 1st but with how saturated the market will be this year I don't see it. If I am moving a 1st as a team I will have plenty of better rental options.

 

[flyfysher]

I think that about Zibanejad as well, I was the one who started this whole Zibanejad to Avs thing and would love to see it happen. He’s not Carter and Richards good though, those guys are definitely an entire tier ahead of what Zibanejad is. Richards in that 2010 playoffs for Philly was something else, and Carter was arguably one of Canada’s greatest goal scorers at that time (going into the olympics he along with Iggy, Heatley, and Marleau were considered Canada’s top snipers).

 

[cgf]

The first player drafted by the revamped scouting department was Mikko. AJ Greer is currently scoring at a PPG pace in the AHL at 21 years old. Meloche looks promising too, but still hasn't even gotten a single NHL game. Jost is in his second NHL season at 20 years old, and is still growing into his role. Beyond that, we're still waiting to see how the picks are going to perform if/when they are finally ready to contribute. So, it's still too early to say that our draft problems are definitely fixed, but there are reasons to be optimistic.

And, I agree that we will probably need to upgrade Kerfoot, eventually, I'm just not convinced that it should be our top priority right now, or that we definitely need to look outside the organization to do it. I think our top priority should be evaluating the youngsters we currently have, and adding more talent to the prospect pool. Once we finish the evaluation in a year or two, we'll have that many more pieces, that much further along in the development process, to move for what we still need. I'm also hoping that the Seattle expansion draft presents some good opportunities that don't appear to be there right now.

Again; if the drafting isn't good enough, then how is that an argument to sit tight and wait for the drafting to solve our issue?

And why can't we upgrade on Kerf and assess what we've got in the pipeline? I'm only suggesting 1 trade to fill one whole and leave us with most of our picks/prospects.

 

[JoemAvs]

The usual Avs fans going crazy for stupid reasons.

Avs haven't been relevant for over a decade and now that they finally built a great young team with a deep pipeline some "smart" people can't wait to blow it all and go all-in for very stupid reasons before we even know what we have exactly within our system.

Because otherwise we turn into the Blues or something. What a stupid hot take...

Avs finished with 48 points 1.5 years ago.
The last thing the Avs should do is trade substantial value for guys like Zibanejad right now.

The Avs are sitting very pretty right now. We have plenty of time to figure out what we have with our prospects and our young NHL players like Compher, Kerfoot , etc.

Capspace is not an issue at all unless we go stupid and trade for overpaid 2nd liners (or sign them in UFA).

I was never a huge fan of overly patient Mr. Sakic. But I have to admit that if there ever was a time to sit back and relax for an Avs GM, it would be right now.

The only thing he should take a serious look at is the Barrie situation. Everything else is not something even worth considering unless we get a huge steal for a very young, cheap guy.
Especially with the expansion draft coming up.
Another exempt stud on an ELC could certainly give us a leg up in comparison to the competition while there is a decent chance that Zibby would have to be exposed which would make throwing away a ton of youth for him even more painful.

And I am not sure that Zib would fit that bill and I am pretty sure that Gorton won't pawn him off for cheap.

So no interest in Z. Good player but not something the Avs should consider at all.

 

[cgf]

[snip]
some "smart" people can't wait to blow it all and go all-in for very stupid reasons before we even know what we have exactly within our system.
[snip]

Well that's just a gross mischaracterization of our position.

...but that isn't new from team Ever-Tank!

 

[JoemAvs]

Well that's just a gross mischaracterization of our position.

...but that isn't new from team Ever-Tank!

Not really. You and many others don't seem to grasp that there is a level between going ALL-IN!!!1 and tanking. Thats the stage the Avs are in.
IMO the Avs need one more high pick to shore up their center position for good. After that I personally don't want to watch a draft lottery for the next decade or so. But that is just me.

What the Avs need to do is find and identify a young nucleus to build around for the next decade, committ most of their capspacce to keep them around and recycle youth and secondary pieces around them.

What they really must avoid is spending huge longterm money on second line forwards that can't drive a line or aging depth. Especially if they have to give up a ton in a trade for it. Thats a double whammy.

Stone, Z-Bad, etc. All these names are of 0 interest to me.

Whats interesting is whether Makar can shore up our D for good and whether that Ottawa pick can give us that longterm 2nd line anchor (center).

Before we know how that turns out every huge move is really foolish unless we get a crazy good bargain.

But I am not surprised that you don't get it.

How is the all-time great Özil doing by the way?
Since he is gone from our NT, our games have even become somewhat watchable. Atleast sometimes. Despite our inept coach...

 

[flyfysher]

Again; if the drafting isn't good enough, then how is that an argument to sit tight and wait for the drafting to solve our issue?

And why can't we upgrade on Kerf and assess what we've got in the pipeline? I'm only suggesting 1 trade to fill one whole and leave us with most of our picks/prospects.[/QUOTE]

Avs haven't been relevant for over a decade and now that they finally built a great young team with a deep pipeline some "smart" people can't wait to blow it all and go all-in for very stupid reasons before we even know what we have exactly within our system.

Well that's just a gross mischaracterization of our position.

...but that isn't new from team Ever-Tank!

You previously stated you're willing to overpay. I don't think adding Zibs takes the Avs to the promised land so I'm unwilling to overpay.

 

[flyfysher]

You previously stated you're willing to overpay. I don't think adding Zibs takes the Avs to the promised land so I'm unwilling to overpay.

 

[cgf]

Not really. You and many others don't seem to grasp that there is a level between going ALL-IN!!!1 and tanking. Thats the stage the Avs are in.
[snip]

Exactly, that's why they need to make the one last move needed for the key pieces to in place...no one is saying anything about going ALL-IN!!!!!1!!! except for you ever-tank'ers when you put words in our mouths.

And please don't bring Mesut up to me again, I'm still disgusted with the way he was scapegoated for Jogi's obvious incompetence. That was utterly embarrassing.

 

[cgf]

You previously stated you're willing to overpay. I don't think adding Zibs takes the Avs to the promised land so I'm unwilling to overpay.

Right...the offers I've suggested are the overpays I'd be willing to make; Timmins + the OTT pick post-lottery. If that isn’t enough then I wouldn't go further and anything else major. I've never suggested Makar even be considered, or that we trade Hughes or Kakko away, or that we make any further trades.

E: Except for when I jockingly said in our GDT that we should trade Kerf & our pick for Radu before flipping the Ottawa pick, Timmins & Bowers for Drae...but that’s because Radu & Drae are my two favorite hockey players and my wanting them on the avs is a longstanding joke that Sasha playing a pivotal role in turning the game around triggered. That wasn’t serious.