Proposal: Zibanejad to the Avs

[barr7622]

Asking for Ottawa 1st + Cale Makar for Mika Zibanejad isn't far off from the Avs asking for NYR 1st + Lias Andersson for Tyson Barrie.

If the rangers were in a situation to trade a first round pick and one of their top 5 prospects for a roster player I would 100% make that trade for Barrie. However in a rebuild its not in their best interest to trade futures for a 27 year old defenseman with two years remaining on his contract. Definitely think Ottawa pick + Makar is too much for Zibanejad although not by much.

 

[The Abusement Park]

If the rangers were in a situation to trade a first round pick and one of their top 5 prospects for a roster player I would 100% make that trade for Barrie. However in a rebuild its not in their best interest to trade futures for a 27 year old defenseman with two years remaining on his contract. Definitely think Ottawa pick + Makar is too much for Zibanejad although not by much.

Yeah that’s a huge overpay for Mika imo. He’s not worth two top 5 picks, not many are really

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Again; if the drafting isn't good enough, then how is that an argument to sit tight and wait for the drafting to solve our issue?

And why can't we upgrade on Kerf and assess what we've got in the pipeline? I'm only suggesting 1 trade to fill one whole and leave us with most of our picks/prospects.

The drafting pretty much sucked prior to 2015 when the scouting department got revamped, which is why the cubbards were absolutely bare for most of the last decade+. Since we've only seen Mikko and Jost from the drafts since making those changes, and neither one of them is a finished product, we don't actually know whether the drafting is good enough going forward.

And, the argument isn't to sit tight and wait for the drafting to solve our problems, the argument is that we should at least give our current crop of youngsters an honest chance before we deem them insufficient while also continuing to let the scouts build a reasonable body of evidence so we can properly assess whether they can be trusted going forward. Because, unless we have actually fixed our drafting issues, we're only going to get a couple of years of contending, before we run out of youngsters and have to resort to scraping the bottom of the UFA barrel again. And, after watching us do that for most of the last decade, I really don't want to go back to that method of team building.

 

[flyfysher]

Right...the offers I've suggested are the overpays I'd be willing to make; Timmins + the OTT pick post-lottery. If that isn’t enough then I wouldn't go further and anything else major. I've never suggested Makar even be considered, or that we trade Hughes or Kakko away, or that we make any further trades.

E: Except for when I jockingly said in our GDT that we should trade Kerf & our pick for Radu before flipping the Ottawa pick, Timmins & Bowers for Drae...but that’s because Radu & Drae are my two favorite hockey players and my wanting them on the avs is a longstanding joke that Sasha playing a pivotal role in turning the game around triggered. That wasn’t serious.

Depends on where that OTT 1stOA pick ends up but I don't see the Rags trading Zibs for it and Timmins if that pick isn't at least top 10. Even then, I'd probably want the Avs to add to their offer if I were a Rags fan given that the pick and Timmins are unproven in the NHL and likely won't replace Zibs' production anytime soon. That's fair since I'm probably guilty of overvaluing Timmins even though I agree with your OTT 1stOA and Timmins final offer limitation. The whole lack of D thing for years has made me incredibly apprehensive about letting go a top D prospect, even one that could miss this entire season. If the OTT pick is a lottery pick then of course the Avs should keep it. Consequently it seems unlikely the Avs will pick up Zibs this season because that's a very narrow set of trade parameters. If anything, I think Sakic will frustrate fans like you by sitting it out on the sidelines FA wise this year. Believe me, I read trade and FA proposals from other Avs fans and they're tempting. But it's clear to me that Sakic has a plan that he has committed to and wants to see what he already has in the present players.

 

[cgf]

Depends on where that OTT 1stOA pick ends up but I don't see the Rags trading Zibs for it and Timmins if that pick isn't at least top 10. Even then, I'd probably want the Avs to add to their offer if I were a Rags fan given that the pick and Timmins are unproven in the NHL and likely won't replace Zibs' production anytime soon. That's fair since I'm probably guilty of overvaluing Timmins even though I agree with your OTT 1stOA and Timmins final offer limitation. The whole lack of D thing for years has made me incredibly apprehensive about letting go a top D prospect, even one that could miss this entire season. If the OTT pick is a lottery pick then of course the Avs should keep it. Consequently it seems unlikely the Avs will pick up Zibs this season because that's a very narrow set of trade parameters. If anything, I think Sakic will frustrate fans like you by sitting it out on the sidelines FA wise this year. Believe me, I read trade and FA proposals from other Avs fans and they're tempting. But it's clear to me that Sakic has a plan that he has committed to and wants to see what he already has in the present players.

That’s why I mention the Ottawa pick in the scenario that after the lottery it ends up in the 5-10 range. Where it would be valuable enough with Timmins to tempt the Gorton if he feels good about their young centers, but where the prospect picked there is unlikely to develop fast enough to help open our window by the 2019-2020 postseason when we should start winning playoff serieses. If the Ottawa picks end up top 3 or 4 I’d keep it and try to build a package for a Center around our pick, Timmins & one of Bowers / Kerfoot / Kaut...with Kaut being the one I’d like to keep as one of our only natural RWs in the organization.

If there’s no one who fits the bill available for those prices then it won’t be that frustrating to wait. It’ll only be frustrating if Joe’s trigger-shyness costs us a move like that that could’ve been made.


As for our blueline, we’d still have Barrie, Makar, Meloche & ol’ EJ on the right. Timmins is an excellent prospect, but we’d still be strong there even without him. Assuming Tyson doesn’t price himself out of the avs plans.

 

[cgf]

The drafting pretty much sucked prior to 2015 when the scouting department got revamped, which is why the cubbards were absolutely bare for most of the last decade+. Since we've only seen Mikko and Jost from the drafts since making those changes, and neither one of them is a finished product, we don't actually know whether the drafting is good enough going forward.

And, the argument isn't to sit tight and wait for the drafting to solve our problems, the argument is that we should at least give our current crop of youngsters an honest chance before we deem them insufficient while also continuing to let the scouts build a reasonable body of evidence so we can properly assess whether they can be trusted going forward. Because, unless we have actually fixed our drafting issues, we're only going to get a couple of years of contending, before we run out of youngsters and have to resort to scraping the bottom of the UFA barrel again. And, after watching us do that for most of the last decade, I really don't want to go back to that method of team building.

I guess I just don’t understand what alternative you are proposing. If our scouts suck do you want us not to contend at all just because we might not contend for long?

 

[flyfysher]

That’s why I mention the Ottawa pick in the scenario that after the lottery it ends up in the 5-10 range. Where it would be valuable enough with Timmins to tempt the Gorton if he feels good about their young centers, but where the prospect picked there is unlikely to develop fast enough to help open our window by the 2019-2020 postseason when we should start winning playoff serieses. If the Ottawa picks end up top 3 or 4 I’d keep it and try to build a package for a Center around our pick, Timmins & one of Bowers / Kerfoot / Kaut...with Kaut being the one I’d like to keep as one of our only natural RWs in the organization.

If there’s no one who fits the bill available for those prices then it won’t be that frustrating to wait. It’ll only be frustrating if Joe’s trigger-shyness costs us a move like that that could’ve been made.


As for our blueline, we’d still have Barrie, Makar, Meloche & ol’ EJ on the right. Timmins is an excellent prospect, but we’d still be strong there even without him. Assuming Tyson doesn’t price himself out of the avs plans.

I can't agree with parting with Kaut. BTW, I think JB truly believes the Avs players are capable of maturing, physically, mentally and playing as a team by season's end to win the SC. I just saw his demeanor in his post game presser and it made me think of your point about their going for the SC now. Still, a lot of Avs fans want to see more of Jost, Kerfoot and Compher as a line.

 

[cgf]

I can't agree with parting with Kaut. BTW, I think JB truly believes the Avs players are capable of maturing, physically, mentally and playing as a team by season's end to win the SC. I just saw his demeanor in his post game presser and it made me think of your point about their going for the SC now. Still, a lot of Avs fans want to see more of Jost, Kerfoot and Compher as a line.

I wouldn't want to move Kaut either, but he's in the same tier of prospects as Bowers, Kerfoot & Timmins. So he wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if the other guys didn't work.

I don't think JB is wrong to feel that way if he does, because I don't think we're far off...if we get that Kerfoot upgrade. Once that guy is in place, then it would just be a matter of experience.

 

[flyfysher]

I wouldn't want to move Kaut either, but he's in the same tier of prospects as Bowers, Kerfoot & Timmins. So he wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if the other guys didn't work.

I don't think JB is wrong to feel that way if he does, because I don't think we're far off...if we get that Kerfoot upgrade. Once that guy is in place, then it would just be a matter of experience.

I think JB feels that way about the potential of the squad that he already has without the Kerfoot upgrade. Still, they need to consider it but I have to admit that I'd be opposed to it. Your dream scenario also depends on picking up Stone. And then you're in the retain Barrie camp so it's a different approach to constructing the team

 

[Avs44]

If the rangers were in a situation to trade a first round pick and one of their top 5 prospects for a roster player I would 100% make that trade for Barrie. However in a rebuild its not in their best interest to trade futures for a 27 year old defenseman with two years remaining on his contract. Definitely think Ottawa pick + Makar is too much for Zibanejad although not by much.

Makar and the Ottawa 1st aren't "a" first round pick and "one of [the Avs'] top 5 prospects", though. This is the Avs' best prospect by a country mile, and one of the more promising drafted prospects in the league, and a pick looking to be top 5/10 in the draft with lottery odds at being top 3.

I would certainly move the Avs own 1st round pick, which is "a" first rounder, and Connor Timmins, who is certainly one of the Avs' top 5 prospects, for Zibanejad.

 

[cgf]

I think JB feels that way about the potential of the squad that he already has without the Kerfoot upgrade. Still, they need to consider it but I have to admit that I'd be opposed to it. Your dream scenario also depends on picking up Stone. And then you're in the retain Barrie camp so it's a different approach to constructing the team

I'd love to sign Stone or Panarin; but if we got a 1b C, that would be a dream scenario with or without one of the star FA wingers.

That said, I've written out all of the math on our board before and if Kerfoot was part of the trade for the 1b C (or was traded for futures / ELCs)...so we didn't have to pay him to...it would actually be possible for us to have over 25-26M to spend on Mikko, that 1b Center, and an FA winger. Even if Barrie was going to sign an extension that started with a 6 or a 7, the math was pretty clean for the foreseeable future (IIRC).


Though again, if we pulled in a Zibby...or better yet a Drae...I'd be perfectly content going to war with Jost & Jimmothy (or Kerfoot) as his wingers until one of Kaut, Shvyryov, or the Ottawa pick (if not traded) was able to claim Compher's spot. I like our young talent a lot...which is why I want them to have all of the support they need to make the most of their abilities and to achieve something as a unit.

 

[flyfysher]

I'd love to sign Stone or Panarin; but if we got a 1b C, that would be a dream scenario with or without one of the star FA wingers.

That said, I've written out all of the math on our board before and if Kerfoot was part of the trade for the 1b C (or was traded for futures / ELCs)...so we didn't have to pay him to...it would actually be possible for us to have over 25-26M to spend on Mikko, that 1b Center, and an FA winger. Even if Barrie was going to sign an extension that started with a 6 or a 7, the math was pretty clean for the foreseeable future (IIRC).


Though again, if we pulled in a Zibby...or better yet a Drae...I'd be perfectly content going to war with Jost & Jimmothy (or Kerfoot) as his wingers until one of Kaut, Shvyryov, or the Ottawa pick (if not traded) was able to claim Compher's spot. I like our young talent a lot...which is why I want them to have all of the support they need to make the most of their abilities and to achieve something as a unit.

Yeah, Draisaitl would be on my list.

 

[cgf]

Yeah, Draisaitl would be on my list.

Spoiler

...now what I'd give for Drae would cause even Henchy & Cobra to abandon my side of the discussion

 

[aufheben]

Trading Zibanejad would the biggest buzzkill on this rebuild.

 

[cgf]

Trading Zibanejad would the biggest buzzkill on this rebuild.

With how many talented young centers y’all have, I can tell you from experience that you learn to live with cashing in on the older ones to make room for the younger ones and surround them with a more cohesive team

Especially if snag another top 10 C in this talented draft

 

[aufheben]

With how many talented young centers y’all have, I can tell you from experience that you learn to live with cashing in on the older ones to make room for the younger ones and surround them with a more cohesive team

Especially if snag another top 10 C in this talented draft

No, he's my favorite. MacKinnon or no deal, ya hear me, Joe?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I guess I just don’t understand what alternative you are proposing. If our scouts suck do you want us not to contend at all just because we might not contend for long?

No, I just want us to give it a little more time so we have a clearer picture of whether or not our scouts still suck before we start seriously looking at alternatives. I also think it's premature to write off our current prospects as not good enough, since we still haven't seen 200 games from any of them. There's no reason to get ahead of ourselves and make trades out of fear right now.

 

[Shootertooter]

Makar and the Ottawa 1st aren't "a" first round pick and "one of [the Avs'] top 5 prospects", though. This is the Avs' best prospect by a country mile, and one of the more promising drafted prospects in the league, and a pick looking to be top 5/10 in the draft with lottery odds at being top 3.

I would certainly move the Avs own 1st round pick, which is "a" first rounder, and Connor Timmins, who is certainly one of the Avs' top 5 prospects, for Zibanejad.

A mid to late 1st and Timmins isn't enough for the Rangers to let Zib go.

 

[Shootertooter]

With how many talented young centers y’all have, I can tell you from experience that you learn to live with cashing in on the older ones to make room for the younger ones and surround them with a more cohesive team

Especially if snag another top 10 C in this talented draft

Zib may eventually be a casualty of this rebuild but I don't see him being moved this season......maybe next season or after.

 

[cgf]

Zib may eventually be a casualty of this rebuild but I don't see him being moved this season......maybe next season or after.

A lot of the proposals in this thread are for the spring; when we'll know where the Ottawa pick will land & you'll have more time to assess how ready your young Cs are for life after Zibby.

 

[cgf]

No, I just want us to give it a little more time so we have a clearer picture of whether or not our scouts still suck before we start seriously looking at alternatives. I also think it's premature to write off our current prospects as not good enough, since we still haven't seen 200 games from any of them. There's no reason to get ahead of ourselves and make trades out of fear right now.

But what do you suggest we do if the scouts suck?

And I'm not writing anyone off, I'm just looking at what skillsets we have in-house & which we're still lacking and we don’t have many top tier offensive talents...and the ones we do have are wingers or blueliners.

No, he's my favorite. MacKinnon or no deal, ya hear me, Joe?

I feel like I said this exact same thing about ROR

 

[Kendo]

Something around the Av's pick and Hayes seems more agreeable.

 

[McSuper]

So the Avs fans ***** and moan about being a 1 line team and needing a bona fide 2nd line center but when a proposal is made offering one (and a really good one at that) a first and a prospect is too much?

Then stay a 1 line team and keep being a bubble team. Look at what teams pay for pieces then get back to me

You can argue all you want about the OP but considering how deep this draft is the Avs will draft a real good piece for their 2nd line with that pick . They will also have a cost controlled asset for years to come . If the NYR continue to rebuild after this season I would like to make a big trade for a few pieces and pay extra to send cap their way

Zibanejad ,Kreider and Shattenkirk for Lucic + Draisaitl and Nurse

Oiler fans won,t like it but I see a more balance team after the trade

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Something around the Av's pick and Hayes seems more agreeable.

Avs should have zero interest in this. Hayes isn't the caliber of center the Avs need, might as well keep Kerfoot - Soderberg as the 2 - 3 punch if Hayes is the catch.

 

[Shootertooter]

Something around the Av's pick and Hayes seems more agreeable.

I agree with you on this and I was going to suggest it previously.
I still think Hayes returns a mid to late first +. The Rangers could add their second or third to get a bigger +.
Their 1st is off the table......their 2nd might be too depending on the +.