Zadina probably starting out in GR

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

To lighten the mood a little, in all fairness T2V could be Biff Tannen

You BUTTHEAD.

Now make like a tree and get out of here.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Literally any regular NHL player found in the 2nd round and on is doing better than the average draft pick from their position. In data I gathered last year (so numbers may be slightly different this year) 37.5% of 2nd round defensemen drafted between 2005-2015 played 41+ NHL games. That's it. Only 37.5%. Almost 2/3 of all NHL defensemen draft picks from the 2nd round don't even play a half season in the NHL. Numbers go down as low as 10% in round 7. Overall, from round 2-7, it's a 21% chance.

I don't think people realize how hard it is to find even NHL level players in the draft outside the first round.

If it is that difficult, why on Earth are people apoplectic when a team lets a guy like Valterri Filppula walk without getting a 4th back for his rights or something. Is it that technically you're getting something for him even if you have an 85% or more chance that it's actually nothing you're getting for him?

 

[Flowah]

If it is that difficult, why on Earth are people apoplectic when a team lets a guy like Valterri Filppula walk without getting a 4th back for his rights or something.

It's precisely because it's so hard.

You need a ton of picks to take lots of players and hope that a few pan out. Letting players go for free is a waste especially if you see it coming.

 

[Larkin1578]

Ryan leaf went second...

Did you read a few posts after that.....

 

[KJoe88]

If you think a forum for Red Wings fans would imply that superstars can't be picked outside the first round, then you're out to lunch.

Datsyuk, 5th round
Zetterberg, 6th round
Lidstrom, 3rd round
Fedorov, 4th round

Be as condescending as you want, you're just making yourself look foolish.

EDIT: typo

That’s how that poster discusses things. I’ve given up replying to him/her.

Doesn’t respect others and believes anything that he/she doesn’t believe in is delusional.

That person flamed the **** out of me for believing Larkin is a PPG player and Mantha is a 40G scorer.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Did you read a few posts after that.....

No I responded to that post.....

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You BUTTHEAD.

Now make like a tree and get out of here.

 

[Gniwder]

Hell, our 2011 2nd round was given good marks as we took Ouellet and Jurco who were supposed to be really good players. Both ended up being garbage.

Really weak draft that year, nothing of note past the first round except Saad, Kucherov, W Karlsson, Gaudreau. Not sure why the team picked such a slow player (Ouellet), would have been awesome if they picked a Russian or Swede.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Really weak draft that year, nothing of note past the first round except Saad, Kucherov, W Karlsson, Gaudreau. Not sure why the team picked such a slow player (Ouellet), would have been awesome if they picked a Russian or Swede.

palat, manson and trocheck too.

 

[BinCookin]

It is also worth noting. The NHL as a whole has about 600 regular players. And a bunch of players (100) that do not play every game (call ups, scratch guys etc).

Since we normally like talking about top 6 players (for forwards) Thats under 200 players. And a lot of these players play for about 10 years.. The superstars can play for about 20 years. So basically Just look at the replacement rate on players. And that will show you why so few players actually make it. Drafts include 240 players.... then entire NHL requires maybe 20 players per year. So the failure rate is quite high.

Nyquist in the 4th round qualifies as a home run
AA in the 4th round qualifies as a home run
Tatar in the 2nd round is quite an awesome pick.

People keep mentioning Kucherov in the 2nd round... That is not just a homerun pick...
Kucherov in the 2nd round is THE reason TB is a stanley cup contender
Finding Marchand/Bergeron with later picks is THE reason Boston won a cup
Detroit finding Zetterberg/Datsyuk with later picks is THE reason Detroit won a cup.

Its better than a homerun pick... its a franchise changing pick

Side Note:

Everyone is getting bent out of shape with the poster claiming Bergren will be a superstar.
I think what he is saying is " I believe Bergren will be a superstar, and I think he was a monster pick, and I really believe in him more than any 2nd rounder pick I have seen pick in forever" - aka "I am a huge supporter of Bergren".
I hope he is right.
Obviously my expectations on draft picks are LOW. Always low. I expect failure on picks, and am surprised when they actually turn out well. If we look at just Zadina/Veleno/McIssac/Bergren... Its very likely that only 2 of those guys ever makes the NHL (50+ games). If all 4 make it... thats amazing.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

If the Wings only cared about bringing Zadina up to sell some tickets, I'm sure that he could unleash his shot and be okay offensively at the big level. But the Wings actually tend to try to care about bringing their players along and not tossing them knowingly into a sink or swim situation where the swim possibility in the short term is not very good.

And I love that 8 points in 13 games is struggling. I love that somehow Zadina is complete garbage because he's scoring over half a point a game. If he was 13 games in and had like 2 points? Okay, that would be worrisome. He's got 8 points on a team that is not an offensive juggernaut.

10 pts in 16 games and -8 in the AHL... for a player who was drafted #6 overall, was once touted as the #1 overall, and was expected to be able to join the team right away.

IDK if you watch AHL games or not, but he's not that good. Maybe Jiri Hudler 2.0... but certainly not elite quality.

His skating = average. His decision making = questionable. Defensive game = vastly overrated considering the scout reports prior to the draft.

Kid is 2nd tier talent, not 1st. That's why he's a complimentary AHL player right now.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Maybe you’re new to following prospects, but they don’t always develop in a perfect linear fashion.

So I don’t really see the issue with whatever it is you’re getting at.

Maybe you're new to watching hockey, but #6 picks don't always develop into elite talent.

Go watch him play, he's nothing exceptional.

 

[BinCookin]

Maybe you're new to watching hockey, but #6 picks don't always develop into elite talent.

Go watch him play, he's nothing exceptional.

You seem to have a pretty strong opinion of a guy who has played 16 AHL games.

 

[Invictus12]

Maybe you're new to watching hockey, but #6 picks don't always develop into elite talent.

Go watch him play, he's nothing exceptional.

Maybe you're new to hockey. A kid just drafted isn't lighting the world on fire the second he steps onto professional stage isn't anything new and hardly ever a tell of anything. Could he bust? Absolutely. It takes a lot longer then 16 gave to make that judgment though. Case in point, look at Rasmussen this season. First handful of games he looked like he was a deer caught in headlight. As time goes on, he gets more comfortable and it shows... Same concept.

 

[lilidk]

Maybe you're new to watching hockey, but #6 picks don't always develop into elite talent.

Go watch him play, he's nothing exceptional.

you can say it about # 1 pics too , the were plenty samples .

 

[Frk It]

Maybe you're new to watching hockey, but #6 picks don't always develop into elite talent.

Go watch him play, he's nothing exceptional.

Never said he was a guarantee to be an elite talent, and I’ve seen him play a ton.

Feel free to tell me specifics about what you don’t like as opposed to just broadly throwing shade for no reason.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

You seem to have a pretty strong opinion of a guy who has played 16 AHL games.

Yup, is that a problem for you?

Maybe you're new to hockey. A kid just drafted isn't lighting the world on fire the second he steps onto professional stage isn't anything new and hardly ever a tell of anything. Could he bust? Absolutely. It takes a lot longer then 16 gave to make that judgment though. Case in point, look at Rasmussen this season. First handful of games he looked like he was a deer caught in headlight. As time goes on, he gets more comfortable and it shows... Same concept.

I've watched Ras play prior to joining the Wings and knew he would be good, and he will get better still. Much better than Zadina. Zadina has been vastly overrated by the hockey media. Probably why he slipped in the draft. Go watch him play and you'll see for yourself.

Never said he was a guarantee to be an elite talent, and I’ve seen him play a ton.

Feel free to tell me specifics about what you don’t like as opposed to just broadly throwing shade for no reason.

Skating is average. Decision making questionable. Defense vastly overrated. He's Hudler 2.0.

 

[lilidk]

Yup, is that a problem for you?



I've watched Ras play prior to joining the Wings and knew he would be good, and he will get better still. Much better than Zadina. Zadina has been vastly overrated by the hockey media. Probably why he slipped in the draft. Go watch him play and you'll see for yourself.



Skating is average. Decision making questionable. Defense vastly overrated. He's Hudler 2.0.

I believe Hudler was very good for us. He looked much smaller than 5'10", Zadina looks average size at 6'0

 

[Oddbob]

I believe Hudler was very good for us. He looked much smaller than 5'10", Zadina looks average size at 6'0

Sorry, but Hudler was nothing special, he honestly did a lot of floating, and he got to play with Z and Pavs in their primes, and he didn't do very well, because he didn't compete hard enough. I think it is too early though to be writing off Zadina, as he is playing pro hockey for the first time, any by the looks of it, the Griffins are quite thin on talent at the moment and not a really good team at all.

I honestly had higher hopes that he would dominate down there, because there at least when drafted was hope he would make the NHL right off the bat, but I guess you get over excited because we rarely have had the chance to see higher picks with the Wings.

 

[lilidk]

Sorry, but Hudler was nothing special, he honestly did a lot of floating, and he got to play with Z and Pavs in their primes, and he didn't do very well, because he didn't compete hard enough. I think it is too early though to be writing off Zadina, as he is playing pro hockey for the first time, any by the looks of it, the Griffins are quite thin on talent at the moment and not a really good team at all.

I honestly had higher hopes that he would dominate down there, because there at least when drafted was hope he would make the NHL right off the bat, but I guess you get over excited because we rarely have had the chance to see higher picks with the Wings.

it all because we had to much expectation after last draft . Time will tell

 

[BinCookin]

Yup, is that a problem for you?

Of course its not a problem. Having a strong opinion is good, makes for interesting discussion.

But as Frk it also mentioned I would like to hear more about your opinion on the player and why you think he wont do well.
I am not judging your opinion because I have watched Zadina almost never.

So you think his skating is questionable.
and his hockey IQ also questionable.

Tell me more about what you think, I am curious to know your point of view. (not to critisize, but so few people get into specifics here, its nice to have someone who looks closely)

 

[Invictus12]

Yup, is that a problem for you?



I've watched Ras play prior to joining the Wings and knew he would be good, and he will get better still. Much better than Zadina. Zadina has been vastly overrated by the hockey media. Probably why he slipped in the draft. Go watch him play and you'll see for yourself.



Skating is average. Decision making questionable. Defense vastly overrated. He's Hudler 2.0.

Yeah thats nice and all that you're giving us all a 'lesson' on your expertise but call me crazy, I will go with the scouts on this, whom by the way' made the decision to rank him high and not the media. I don't have that much time for Red Wings games so I sure won't be going out of the way to catch GR games but again, a kid just switched from a boys league to a man's league and 16 games in (where his stats aren't even bad IMO) I'll hold of judgment. And I sure hell will listen with skepticism to anyone ready to declare him a superstar or a bust. He's playing on a farm team. He was taken high because he has high potential. I hope he reaches it but realize that he might not. If you end up being right, it would be purely accidental...

 

[Frk It]

Skating is average. Decision making questionable. Defense vastly overrated. He's Hudler 2.0.

The skating concerns I get. I also thought Elias Petterson was pretty average in the skating dept in his draft year, and he’s lighting it up right now. That’s an area plenty of guys have made strides in. Yeah Hudler never could, but even if Hudler was 2-3 inches taller (like Zadina) that would have helped a ton.

I don’t see questionable decision-making. I didn’t see it in the Q or at the WJC. I see a kid that plays a game very predicated on stickhandling and timing making adjustments to playing in a pro league for the first time.

Defense is overrated? Haven’t really seen a person say he’s good defensively. General consensus is that’s an area that will need to improve over time.

He needs to improve, as with most non top 5 picks... but he also has a ton of natural talent.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Of course its not a problem. Having a strong opinion is good, makes for interesting discussion.

But as Frk it also mentioned I would like to hear more about your opinion on the player and why you think he wont do well.
I am not judging your opinion because I have watched Zadina almost never.

So you think his skating is questionable.
and his hockey IQ also questionable.

Tell me more about what you think, I am curious to know your point of view. (not to critisize, but so few people get into specifics here, its nice to have someone who looks closely)

Sorry if I was rude, I'd be happy to elaborate further.

Skating: His footwork is excellent but the speed isn't there. As a whole I'd say he's an average skater. Not much more I can say about that.

Decision-making: I'm talking specifically in the offensive zone here. He is certainly a gifted offensive player. His shot is enormous, his hands are soft as baby poo, and he knows how to position himself to score. But his decision making when the puck is on his stick I would say is underdeveloped. He often holds on to the puck much longer than he should, and then when he does decide to pass his pass choice is often frustrating IMO.

Defense: I was led to believe prior to the draft that his defense was solid and he could immediately join an NHL team playing a competent two-way game. Well IMHO that was 100% BS. His defense is definitely lacking.

In all I think he's future an NHL player... but I think we drafted another Mantha, not another Larkin... which is somewhat disappointing for a #6 overall pick

Yeah thats nice and all that you're giving us all a 'lesson' on your expertise but call me crazy, I will go with the scouts on this, whom by the way' made the decision to rank him high and not the media. I don't have that much time for Red Wings games so I sure won't be going out of the way to catch GR games but again, a kid just switched from a boys league to a man's league and 16 games in (where his stats aren't even bad IMO) I'll hold of judgment. And I sure hell will listen with skepticism to anyone ready to declare him a superstar or a bust. He's playing on a farm team. He was taken high because he has high potential. I hope he reaches it but realize that he might not. If you end up being right, it would be purely accidental...

"I will go with the scouts on this"

Why do you come here for opinion then? If you trust the scouts fully, amateurs on an internet board should be irrelevant to you.

"I don't have that much time for Red Wings games so I sure won't be going out of the way to catch GR games"

I do have time for this. Wings and Griffins as much as I can. If you don't like my opinion, fair enough, move along.

The skating concerns I get. I also thought Elias Petterson was pretty average in the skating dept in his draft year, and he’s lighting it up right now. That’s an area plenty of guys have made strides in. Yeah Hudler never could, but even if Hudler was 2-3 inches taller (like Zadina) that would have helped a ton.

I don’t see questionable decision-making. I didn’t see it in the Q or at the WJC. I see a kid that plays a game very predicated on stickhandling and timing making adjustments to playing in a pro league for the first time.

Defense is overrated? Haven’t really seen a person say he’s good defensively. General consensus is that’s an area that will need to improve over time.

He needs to improve, as with most non top 5 picks... but he also has a ton of natural talent.

My opinion can basically be boiled down to: Zadina is the next Hudler/Filppula/Nyquist/Tatar

 

[Ezekial]

You made a lot of assumptions about who he was as a player and he isn't what you expected. Now he's just another Red Wings cast-off.