Rumor: Wings had offer on the table for Barzal

[Snuggs]

Caps stats under Trotz (his Cup season)

Washington Capitals 2017-18 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 2017-18 Washington Capitals playing in the NHL.

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Kuz played with Ovechkin so that explains his points, but Backstrom did OK that season as 2C.

I think Barzal's lack of points really has more to do with a lack of talented wingers than Trotz's system.

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The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 2021-22 New York Islanders playing in the NHL.

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If the price for Barzal is Bert, then he wouldn't be playing with any talent in Detroit either so I wouldn't expect a big change in point totals.

Not totally genuine. Depends on if you think he's play with Vrana who easily the Islanders best winger imo if he's on that team right now.

Parise and Wahlstrom aren't better than a pairing of Fabbri/Vrana possibly.

 

[haulinbass]

As a Jackets fan, I would offer

Kent Johnson (2021 #5 overall pick who has impressed at Michigan and the Olympics)
Chicago’s 2022 1st round pick (currently #8 by points percentage)
one of: Columbus’ 2022 1st round pick (currently #13) or Liam Foudy or Alexandre Texier
Emil Bemstrom
Dmitri Voronkov

for extended Barzal. And I wouldn’t think twice about it. I don’t see a Barzal trade happening without an extension already in place.

The kids number 1 idol is Datsyuk and he is a Red Wings fan. I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of the reason why Yzerman supposedly inquired on him, because he would likely sign an extension here.

I've watched Barzal since Seattle and a ton in the NHL. He truly almost mimmicks Datsyuks exact game. Of course not quite as good but he literally is a Datsyuk lite.

I also think we haven't seen the best of Barzal. Put some more talented players with him, with the right coach in the right scheme and the kids going to put up some numbers. He isn't known for his defense because his defense isn't whats normally expected from a great defensive player. He doesn't play defense like Zetterberg he plays defense more like Datsyuk. Which means he doesn't particularly shadow a player and make life miserable, he comes out of the woodwork and intercepts a pass or makes an unexpected stick lift and he is gone the other way. He's been expected to basically play with the mentality of Toews and Zetterberg or else his entire career in NY.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I've been sure of this kid since Seattle, I projected him to step right into the NHL and not miss a beat. He was criticisized in the WHL by majority expecting him to be unable to produce in the NHL, let alone score more than 3 goals per season in the NHL. Every play I seen him make in WHL I thought would be just as effective in the NHL. That's what happened. I can also completely sympathize with what's going on in NY with his mindset and game. Would love to see this kid get a fresh start somewhere that's a better fit. I believe Detroit would be a great place for him.

 

[14ari13]

The kids number 1 idol is Datsyuk and he is a Red Wings fan. I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of the reason why Yzerman supposedly inquired on him, because he would likely sign an extension here.

I've watched Barzal since Seattle and a ton in the NHL. He truly almost mimmicks Datsyuks exact game. Of course not quite as good but he literally is a Datsyuk lite.

I also think we haven't seen the best of Barzal. Put some more talented players with him, with the right coach in the right scheme and the kids going to put up some numbers. He isn't known for his defense because his defense isn't whats normally expected from a great defensive player. He doesn't play defense like Zetterberg he plays defense more like Datsyuk. Which means he doesn't particularly shadow a player and make life miserable, he comes out of the woodwork and intercepts a pass or makes an unexpected stick lift and he is gone the other way. He's been expected to basically play with the mentality of Toews and Zetterberg or else his entire career in NY.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I've been sure of this kid since Seattle, I projected him to step right into the NHL and not miss a beat. He was criticisized in the WHL by majority expecting him to be unable to produce in the NHL, let alone score more than 3 goals per season in the NHL. Every play I seen him make in WHL I thought would be just as effective in the NHL. That's what happened. I can also completely sympathize with what's going on in NY with his mindset and game. Would love to see this kid get a fresh start somewhere that's a better fit. I believe Detroit would be a great place for him.

Nothing will change under Lou and Trotz. And it should not.

 

[SirloinUB]

Barzal is a fun pipedream but nothing more.

 

[Gniwder]

Not totally genuine. Depends on if you think he's play with Vrana who easily the Islanders best winger imo if he's on that team right now.

Parise and Wahlstrom aren't better than a pairing of Fabbri/Vrana possibly.

The only way the trade would make sense is if Stevie was planning on picking up a UFA winger. If Bert's traded then one of Fabbri or Vrana would be on the top line without a FA pickup. Not that Vrana or Fabbri are that good defensively, Zadina gets burned every time he plays on the top line. Oddly, I don't mind what he's doing offensively, but he's too slow and weak to cover top pair Dmen. All they need is one move to get by Zadina.

 

[Snuggs]

The only way the trade would make sense is if Stevie was planning on picking up a UFA winger. If Bert's traded then one of Fabbri or Vrana would be on the top line without a FA pickup. Not that Vrana or Fabbri are that good defensively, Zadina gets burned every time he plays on the top line. Oddly, I don't mind what he's doing offensively, but he's too slow and weak to cover top pair Dmen. All they need is one move to get by Zadina.

Oh, I agree, and that could be achieved quite frankly very easily. (I think you'd agree too even.) Veteran ufa, rising rookie, small trade. Red Wings in a Barzal trade/extension still have cap to do things. It's not crippling. IF... You did nothing I don't think it's as bad as you say, the first two lines would be alright... idk what to do for the other two? Piece it together for now.

Suter - Larkin - Raymond
Fabbri - Barzal - Vrana
Zadina - Veleno - Sundvist
Erne - Rasmussen - Mitchell

Now it's pretty much just fans(me) going nuts; nothing real credible from what I understand. Any top 20ish C though that's available under 26, I'm all for trading for.

I don't mind leading the charge like we're in Madd-Max though.

 

[SirloinUB]

Oh, I agree, and that could be achieved quite frankly very easily. (I think you'd agree too even.) Veteran ufa, rising rookie, small trade. Red Wings in a Barzal trade/extension still have cap to do things. It's not crippling. IF... You did nothing I don't think it's as bad as you say, the first two lines would be alright... idk what to do for the other two? Piece it together for now.


Now it's pretty much just fans(me) going nuts; nothing real credible from what I understand. Any top 20ish C though that's available under 26, I'm all for trading for.

I don't mind leading the charge like we're in Madd-Max though.

If we cant fantasize about adding a star for pennies on the dollar, what the f*** are we even doing here?

 

[ricky0034]

If we cant fantasize about adding a star for pennies on the dollar, what the f*** are we even doing here?

 

[Gniwder]

Oh, I agree, and that could be achieved quite frankly very easily. (I think you'd agree too even.) Veteran ufa, rising rookie, small trade. Red Wings in a Barzal trade/extension still have cap to do things. It's not crippling. IF... You did nothing I don't think it's as bad as you say, the first two lines would be alright... idk what to do for the other two? Piece it together for now.


Now it's pretty much just fans(me) going nuts; nothing real credible from what I understand.

I don't mind leading the charge like we're in Madd-Max though.

I would never put Suter on the top line. You could achieve much better results by giving Malkin 2 year x $10M or even $11M.

Bert-Larkin-Ray
Berggren-Malkin-Vrana
Veleno-Suter-Fabbri
Raz-Sundqvist-Zadina
Erne/Elmer

The Caps went through the same thing where they struggled to find a 2C, went through Laich, Feds, Ribiero until Kuz took over. The major difference is the generational winger they had who could carry the team into the playoffs even as a one line team, but it's a precedent for using an aging star as 2C. I'm sure there are other teams that have as well.

The point is Malkin's so good he can play with anyone, including a rookie. Barzal isn't that good. Plus Malkin wouldn't cost any assets and the Wings are $8M under the cap floor.

 

[Retire91]

I think its good to walk a mile in other's shoes so let's do the thought exercise.

Bertuzzi, Zadina are magically on another team. That team comes to us and offers Bertuzzi, Zadina, and a 1st probably (6-8 OA). Do you give them Larkin? And Larkin is magically 24.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

I think its good to walk a mile in other's shoes so let's do the thought exercise.

Bertuzzi, Zadina are magically on another team. That team comes to us and offers Bertuzzi, Zadina, and a 1st probably (6-8 OA). Do you give them Larkin? And Larkin is magically 24.

yes

 

[simonedvinsson]

OK. OK. Let’s trade for Barzal (Suter and a third) AND add Malkin in FA:

Malkin - Larkin - Raymond
Bertuzzi - Barzal - Vrana

 

[jkutswings]

I think its good to walk a mile in other's shoes so let's do the thought exercise.

Bertuzzi, Zadina are magically on another team. That team comes to us and offers Bertuzzi, Zadina, and a 1st probably (6-8 OA). Do you give them Larkin? And Larkin is magically 24.

To be fair in this hypothetical, Larkin is having a much better year than Barzal is. But to play along, what would I want for Larkin? Bertuzzi and either two first rounders or a first and Edvinsson.

Taking this year's performance into account for Barzal, I'd give up Bertuzzi, a first, and a second, assuming the first rounder is lottery protected.

 

[14ari13]

yes

Would you trade Larkin straight for Barzal?
Bertuzzi, Zadina and 1st for Larkin/Barzal?

Larkin 15th OA
Barzal 16th OA
1st 6-8th OA.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

Would you trade Larkin straight for Barzal?
Bertuzzi, Zadina and 1st for Larkin/Barzal?

Larkin 15th OA
Barzal 16th OA
1st 6-8th OA.

id rather have larkin
and no id rather have Bert Zadina and a top 8 pick

It is close in value though. Wouldn’t fault anyone for taking that

 

[14ari13]

id rather have larkin
and no id rather have Bert Zadina and a top 8 pick

It is close in value though. Wouldn’t fault anyone for taking that

Me too. Barzal has regressed and everything indicates he will continue to regress. He is 115th in points among all players and 47th among centres.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Asking for Barzal is close to the isles asking for Sieder. Just won’t happen unless Barzal wants out.

I don't think that's accurate. It would be more as if Seider follows this season up with 4 slightly disappointing seasons where his numbers regress.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

What was the offer by us?

 

[Bench]

What was the offer by us?

Entirely unknown. It's not even really confirmed there was an offer.

Nonetheless, it's a fun conversation topic and I'll be eagerly anticipating the draft to see what happens.

 

[SI90]

I don't think that's accurate. It would be more as if Seider follows this season up with 4 slightly disappointing seasons where his numbers regress.

Then you don’t watch the islanders or understand the team. Barzal is a hell of a lot better player now than he was in his 85pt rookie season.

 

[Snuggs]

I would never put Suter on the top line. You could achieve much better results by giving Malkin 2 year x $10M or even $11M.

Bert-Larkin-Ray
Berggren-Malkin-Vrana
Veleno-Suter-Fabbri
Raz-Sundqvist-Zadina
Erne/Elmer

The Caps went through the same thing where they struggled to find a 2C, went through Laich, Feds, Ribiero until Kuz took over. The major difference is the generational winger they had who could carry the team into the playoffs even as a one line team, but it's a precedent for using an aging star as 2C. I'm sure there are other teams that have as well.

The point is Malkin's so good he can play with anyone, including a rookie. Barzal isn't that good. Plus Malkin wouldn't cost any assets and the Wings are $8M under the cap floor.

Well, Zadina is on a top line now, Erne's been there... And those moves have been done by a professional coach. Suter is better than both those guys.

An... idk what you achieve signing Malkin. You aren't winning anything and are too good to be serious about the lottery and he's too old to build around long-term.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Then you don’t watch the islanders or understand the team. Barzal is a hell of a lot better player now than he was in his 85pt rookie season.

He's nowhere near elite defensively, he doesn't kill penalties, he's not great on faceoffs, and he's not producing elite or even borderline elite numbers.

The "you don't understand the team" argument falls kind of flat. Seider is putting up a lot of high-end, borderline elite metrics on a bad team, with no help.

 

[SI90]

He's nowhere near elite defensively, he doesn't kill penalties, he's not great on faceoffs, and he's not producing elite or even borderline elite numbers.

The "you don't understand the team" argument falls kind of flat. Seider is putting up a lot of high-end, borderline elite metrics on a bad team, with no help.

Barzal is an absolute puck hound. Pick pocket. Not good on faceoffs. That’s fine. Centers don’t have to take faceoffs. Barry Trotz doesn’t allow for certain guys to play to their strengths. See MSL recent comments when he took over the Habs and see Caufields increase in production. Systems and coaches can absolutely affect a players point totals. Thinking And not understanding that Barzal is 10X the player today than he was his rookie season is laughable.


Also, that 85 point season was Barzal “putting up a lot of high-end, borderline elite metrics on a bad team, with no help.”

Tavares and Barzal didn’t play together on a line.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Also, that 85 point season was Barzal “putting up a lot of high-end, borderline elite metrics on a bad team, with no help.”

And like I said.. if Seider 4 years from now has yet to match his rookie point totals, and is maybe.. a 30 point guy, doesn't have elite defensive metrics etc. and we're saying "he's 10x the player he was", I find it likely you'd doubt it.

 

[SI90]

And like I said.. if Seider 4 years from now has yet to match his rookie point totals, and is maybe.. a 30 point guy, doesn't have elite defensive metrics etc. and we're saying "he's 10x the player he was", I find it likely you'd doubt it.

Point totals are not the be all end all. There’s more context to it.