Speculation: Willy Nilly XX

[johnny_rudeboy]

You have to think progress is being made with dubas and gross meeting on back to back days, - yesterday and today. A trade is very very unlikely imo

Would they not have to meet and discuss a sign and trade deal?

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

This sucks, I miss having our full lineup.

 

[Gary Nylund]

My overall argument is that Nylander is leaving no money on the table, and isn't being asked to leave money on the table, so it is irrelevant as to whether it is easier for one person to leave money on the table versus another, no matter the reasons. However, I'll do my best to respond to each point.

1 - Again, just because Tavares has made money, and will be making more money, does not equate to it being easier to give up money. Most players have accoutants, they pay agent fees, they pay union fees, part of their income is held in escrow, and 'most' players pay quite high income taxes. The more you make, the more expensive your lifestyle is as well. It's not easy or easier for anyone to say "I'll hold on that extra 2M per season".

2 - Again, I don't see this as relevant in terms of contract. It's certainly a reason why he wanted to play for us, however the Leafs were only offering 11M because they had other star players they needed to pay (the same reason the Leafs are reportedly only offering 6-6.5M) and that's ultimatley the biggest reason why Tavares came here. In fact, I think JT got asked at his presser that if the Leafs didn't have Matthews, Marner and Nylander would he have signed here, and I believe he essentially said it may have changed things and it's a big reason why he decided to come here.

3- Exactly. He can't. Every other RFA his age, didn't get one either. Ehlers, Pastrnak, Forsberg, etc all didn't get a NMC. That has no affect on 2nd year negotiations because it's in the CBA that players can't receive one until they are 26 years of age or older. So if he signs a 6-8 year deal, the Leafs can have a NTC in there for years 6, 7, and 8 if he wants. You can't ask for more than similar RFA's because you can't get something they also didn't get either.

That's all well and good. Like I said earlier, I agree it's fair to say that Tavares did leave money on the table. You've said that several times already and I don't know what else to say but that I agree.

Did he take a discount though?

Again, some people would say no arguing that he left money on the table, therefore yes he did and that's a fair point. However, others are saying he's not a top 10 player in the NHL yet he now has the 2nd highest cap hit in the league so that is absolutely NOT a discount. I think those people also have a point.

Now I understand that he was a UFA and they get paid yadayadayada but look at Stamkos, he was also UFA. Look at the deal he signed for what my idea of a discount is.

Point #2 - you can dismiss it if you like, I'd bet a TON that it was absolutely a factor. Not necessarily THE factor but a factor nevertheless.

Point #3 - of course Nylander can't ask for that. He can't and Tavares can, that's the whole point. If NTC's weren't allowed for all players including Tavares then it's quite possible that Tavares doesn't sign with us.

 

[Hunter368]

This sucks, I miss having our full lineup.

Trying to look at the positives, guys are getting opportunities they might not otherwise might not and management gets to see them.

 

[Leafs1993]

Dubas and Gross met again today? Well that’s something. I don’t know what, but at least it is something and something is better than nothing.

 

[freshwind]

Are you really comparing Tavares to Clarkson???

Tavares will be far from a bust as Clarkson was. And he is worth every penny. He's already elevated Matthews and Marner's games with his presence. If he took 2 million less a season to play with our young core and at home. It is a discount which ever way you want to look at it.

Willy doesn't need to take 2 million less to be a Leaf long term. He needs to accept the fact that there are either better or similar players to him that are getting paid what they are. As we can see Draistle isn't worth his contract. Never will be. The Leafs are in the right to not want to make the same mistake that the Oilers did. Just because one team has made a mistake, doesn't mean that is the bar when 95% of the players at his level are being paid what they are.

Willy needs to get his head out of his ass. That will make things move along.

never compared the 2 PLAYERS but referred to it for the benefit for those silly enough to believe tavares took a discount.... just because some gm offered him more does NOT make jt's deal a discount

i will admit he has elevated the pp but 5 on 5 not so much yet, still early

 

[ULF_55]

Trying to look at the positives, guys are getting opportunities they might not otherwise might not and management gets to see them.

Yep, this is letting the team know how real their depth is.

Not looking great outside of the top 6 forwards.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Would they not have to meet and discuss a sign and trade deal?

A friend of mine keeps suggesting a sign-and-trade and I don't understand at all why that would happen. The way it happens in hockey is the team allows the potential new team to negotiate a contract extension with the player before a trade is made, then the trade is made and the contract signed.

Why would it happen any differently here?

 

[Erndog]

Theoretically, this can still last another 6 weeks.

As you were...

 

[pcruz]

Right now, Dubas has an average of .1000
He hasnt failed or made a bad move.

10% is really bad though.

 

[Cor]

That's all well and good. Like I said earlier, I agree it's fair to say that Tavares did leave money on the table. You've said that several times already and I don't know what else to say but that I agree.

Did he take a discount though?

Again, some people would say no arguing that he left money on the table, therefore yes he did and that's a fair point. However, others are saying he's not a top 10 player in the NHL yet he now has the 2nd highest cap hit in the league so that is absolutely NOT a discount. I think those people also have a point.

Now I understand that he was a UFA and they get paid yadayadayada but look at Stamkos, he was also UFA. Look at the deal he signed for what my idea of a discount is.

Point #2 - you can dismiss it if you like, I'd bet a TON that it was absolutely a factor. Not necessarily THE factor but a factor nevertheless.

Point #3 - of course Nylander can't ask for that. He can't and Tavares can't, that's the whole point. If NTC's weren't allowed for all players including Tavares then it's quite possible that Tavares doesn't sign with us.

Re: Stamkos. That's hard to consider a discount. He would of actually made less money in Toronto than he does in Tampa Bay, depsite the AAV in Toronto's reported offer being 1.5-2M higher than what it is with his contract in Tampa Bay. Tampa Bay didn't get a discount from Stamkos, they got a discount from the NHL CBA not factoring in differing income taxes.

I'm not trying to dismiss the Leafs being Tavares' favorite team being a factor to him wanting to come here, however when it comes to money, I don't imagine it was a significant factor in Tavares taking the 11M vs asking for more.

Point 3, which I think we now agree on, is the main issue with this negotiation based on what has come out. It's reported that the Nylander camp is essentially saying that he can't get any sort of trade protection, so he wants 8M, because if he signs for 6M in Toronto today, he could be making 6M in Arizona tomorrow. To me, that's kinda bullcrap, because they are looking at Dubas, and due to something no NHL team can legally offer a player like Nylander, are asking for a ridiculous amount.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

A friend of mine keeps suggesting a sign-and-trade and I don't understand at all why that would happen. The way it happens in hockey is the team allows the potential new team to negotiate a contract extension with the player before a trade is made, then the trade is made and the contract signed.

Why would it happen any differently here?

We dont know if Gross has negotiated or talked with any other teams.

I agree that what you said is the normal is the normal. But Gross could have talked to the team Dubas wanted to trade William to and they then meet to finalize it or at least have the Nylander camp compare the different options?

 

[kindalaidback]

i hope william signs soon so i don't have to be angry about the poli board being gone.

 

[Gabriel426]

So Dubas went to Zurich to meet with Willie. Had a talk and then flew back and meet with his agent.
It is interesting where this is going, and I think it is very possible that a trade is happeneing

 

[Leafsman]

Dubas and Gross met again today? Well that’s something. I don’t know what, but at least it is something and something is better than nothing.

Is that a question? Or did they meet again? Where did you hear this?

If they met again, that is pretty huge. You can tell negotiations are really ramping up and getting close when there is an increase in frequency.

 

[Cor]

Is that a question? Or did they meet again? Where did you hear this?

If they met again, that is pretty huge. You can tell negotiations are really ramping up and getting close when there is an increase in frequency.

CJ reported they were meeting again today.

 

[DarkKnight]

CJ reported they were meeting again today.

Great news!

 

[Gary Nylund]

Re: Stamkos. That's hard to consider a discount. He would of actually made less money in Toronto than he does in Tampa Bay, depsite the AAV in Toronto's reported offer being 1.5-2M higher than what it is with his contract in Tampa Bay. Tampa Bay didn't get a discount from Stamkos, they got a discount from the NHL CBA not factoring in differing income taxes.

I've been a bunch of posts arguing this both for and against and TBH, I don't know enough to have a strong opinion either way. I do believe that he would have been offered more from some other team, Toronto certainly wasn't the only interested party.

I'm not trying to dismiss the Leafs being Tavares' favorite team being a factor to him wanting to come here, however when it comes to money, I don't imagine it was a significant factor in Tavares taking the 11M vs asking for more.

Only Tavares can say what it's worth to him to play for his favourite team. I would imagine it's worth quite a bit but ... no way to know for sure.

Point 3, which I think we now agree on, is the main issue with this negotiation based on what has come out. It's reported that the Nylander camp is essentially saying that he can't get any sort of trade protection, so he wants 8M, because if he signs for 6M in Toronto today, he could be making 6M in Arizona tomorrow. To me, that's kinda bullcrap, because they are looking at Dubas, and due to something no NHL team can legally offer a player like Nylander, are asking for a ridiculous amount.

If Nylander is asking for 8m and if that's his justification then I agree, that's crap. If this is what's happening then if I'm Dubas, I'm not giving an inch and if I'm Nylanders agent, I'm thinking hey I took a shot but it appears to be not working and if Dubas doesn't cave soon it'll be time to get real. And if I'm Nylander, I'm telling my agent hey it was worth a shot, but now it's time to get real and if he doesn't agree, he's fired.

 

[Leafsman]

CJ reported they were meeting again today.

Niiiiice! Thanks.

Frequency of communication is amping up and the intensity of Nylander's training is amping up. Any time now folks!

 

[pcruz]

Why the need to degrade this discussion with insults directed at Nylander, his camp, or more strangely, each other?

We don’t know any details of the back and forth, the contractual demands, or the offers.

All we know is that, whatever was offered hasn’t been satisfactory.

It doesn’t make Nylander a fool (not yet anyway), selfish or poisonous.
He’s also not getting any better as he sits at home and is making himself look more expensive each missed game.

Also, for those who believe that Marner and Nylander are similar, I say this:
They have similar NHL statistics, but one of them is older and has had the benefit of one of the very best NHL players on his line just about his entire stay here.

Matthews and Marner will get between 140 and 160 million dollars between the 2 of them over the 16 years of contracts. Matthews will factor in the $90-100 range while Marner will get ~$60.

If Nylander is in the $50 million range over 8 years, that’s great.

 

[Leafs1993]

Is that a question? Or did they meet again? Where did you hear this?

If they met again, that is pretty huge. You can tell negotiations are really ramping up and getting close when there is an increase in frequency.

It was a question, I read some posts saying they met yesterday and today. Maybe another poster can shed some light for us?

Edit: thanks @Cor !

 

[Advanced stats]

Would they not have to meet and discuss a sign and trade deal?

Uhhh no...

Dubas would have to talk trade with team xyz, and that team would have to negotiiate and sign nylander. If nylander signs with toronto, he's gonna stay here, that much is obvious.

 

[Advanced stats]

It was a question, I read some posts saying they met yesterday and today. Maybe another poster can shed some light for us?

Edit: thanks @Cor !

I was that poster...it's all over Twitter. Sorry!

 

[DarkKnight]

If this quick follow meeting is happening, then we are clearly making real headway. Best news I've heard since this saga began.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Uhhh no...

Dubas would have to talk trade with team xyz, and that team would have to negotiiate and sign nylander. If nylander signs with toronto, he's gonna stay here, that much is obvious.

A sign and trade is that not the player first signing a deal and then gets traded? I might just be confused over the saying. Perhaps it has always been a trade of rights first and then a signing?