Will Ovechkin beat Gretzky in all-time goals?

[bring back the jets]

Just realize that even if Ovi does surpass Wayne, goal scoring was kind of like his side job. Fortunately for Ovi getting older and losing a step shouldn't affect his output since all he does is stand still and wing writers from the dot. He could probably do that until he's 50 if he wanted to.

The passive aggression is real

 

[TheAngryHank]

Hope Ovy stay healthy enough to have a shot.

 

[SML2]

The passive aggression is real

Nothing passive about it. The disrespect shown towards the greatest player and ambassador in the history of the game is incredible. I'm not even an Edmonton fan.

 

[member 300185]

Gretzky's in a league of very few when it comes to talent. Orr, Lemieux, Howe...

But, I can't let you get away with this "only got to play with one winger" stuff. He played on stacked teams for most of his career. Please, let's not try to argue otherwise.

Sure sure. I am making it up about McSorley and Semenko. What was I thinking. I'm sure they played in brazil at the time.

Good grief man.

 

[King Mapes]

People keep saying that. I don't agree and neither does Brodeurs 149 regular and playoff shutouts. Thats like going over a season and a half without having a goal scored on you. Terry Sawchuk with 103 shutouts without a mask. George Hainsworth with 94 and Hall with 84. Then you have Beezer in NYR, Hasek, Fuhr, Moog, etc.

Not as easy to score as people think.

What do those goalies have to do with the scoring in the 80s?

Look up goals per game in the 80s. Brodeur played during the trap. Gretzky didn't.

 

[member 300185]

Gretzky's good scoring years came from 79/80 to 89/90.

Brodeur, Sawchuk, Hainsworth, and Hall never played while Gretzky played though, so how could you use that as an argument towards it not being easier to score goals back then?

From 79/80 to 89/90 (Gretzky's 1st 40+ goal season to his last one) vs. Ovi's career so far:

- Avg goals per game: Wayne = 3.77 - Ovi = 2.84 (Ovi era = 33% less)
- Sv% : Wayne = 87.8% - Ovi = 91.1% (Ovi era = 3.29% lower sv%)

Ovi has over 5,100 shots. If he scored an extra 3.3% of the time, that would be = ~168 goals already. If he scaled properly with Wayne's era of higher scoring, his 647 goals x 33% avg goals increase = ~213 goals. If Ovi played in Wayne's era, statistically at least, without looking at random variables that we couldn't account for, Ovi could very well have over 850 goals already.

Lets talk variables then. He played in the hooking era and redline offsides. He had at least one crappy winger almost his entire career who was a goon. That is real. I watched him destroy my favourite teams all the time. I hated the guy, but there is no denying that he played with a boat anchor on his left and right wings most of the time. Thats real. It happened.

People thinking Ovi is better than Gretzky dont have a clue to how good he was. Not you, but most here saying Ovi is better. Those variables count. I remember so many times that some knucklehead was out to get him, and the hooking non stop on him and he had to shake that off. He was a centre and Ovi is a one trick pony on the left face-off circle. Gretzky scored all over the ice. These young kids nowadays only grew up watching Ovi, they should really watch more old youtube video's about him.

If anyone thinks Ovi is better than Gretzky, then I dont have time for them. They clearly have learning disabilities. lol

 

[loki2185]

Let them trade places. If ovechkin plays back in the road hockey days. He probably scores on almost every shot he takes

 

[TheAngryHank]

What do those goalies have to do with the scoring in the 80s?

Look up goals per game in the 80s. Brodeur played during the trap. Gretzky didn't.

Teams were trapping in like 94

 

[member 300185]

What do those goalies have to do with the scoring in the 80s?

Look up goals per game in the 80s. Brodeur played during the trap. Gretzky didn't.

Again, someone who doesn't know Gretzky and how to use google. Brodeur was called up in the 93/94 season and faced Gretzky 22 times. In 22 games, Gretzky had 7 goals and 17 assists for 24 points. So Gretzky did in fact play in the same era as Brodeur for a time. No other player beat Brodeur like that. And, Gretzky called the Devils a mickey mouse team.

stop posting your nonsense until you can actually come back with facts.

 

[member 300185]

Nothing passive about it. The disrespect shown towards the greatest player and ambassador in the history of the game is incredible. I'm not even an Edmonton fan.

Completely agree. Don't let it bother you bud, most of these posters on here are kids. They dont know.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I thought the average poster here was 30+ years old. Reading this thread makes me realize it’s more likely 15+ years old.

Ovi is amazing, but nowhere near Gretzky.

 

[King Mapes]

Teams were trapping in like 94

Exactly my point. Gretzky did a good part of his damage in the 80s

 

[King Mapes]

Again, someone who doesn't know Gretzky and how to use google. Brodeur was called up in the 93/94 season and faced Gretzky 22 times. In 22 games, Gretzky had 7 goals and 17 assists for 24 points. So Gretzky did in fact play in the same era as Brodeur for a time. No other player beat Brodeur like that. And, Gretzky called the Devils a mickey mouse team.

stop posting your nonsense until you can actually come back with facts.

Okay but everyone was talking about the high scoring in the 80s... you know... his prime?

People don't consider the mid-late 90s high scoring Maybe that's why you're tired of hearing it. You don't understand.

Stop posting my nonsense? Most goalies you listed didn't even play with Gretzky yet bringing them up somehow makes the 80s lower scoring?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sure sure. I am making it up about McSorley and Semenko. What was I thinking. I'm sure they played in brazil at the time.

Good grief man.

Yeah, Messier, Anderson, Coffey, Kurri... what a brutal team to be on. But keep going on about Semenko...

 

[TheAngryHank]

Exactly my point. Gretzky did a good part of his damage in the 80s

If Ovy was shooting in the 80s with his sticks today he would probably kill a few people and injured countless goalies.

 

[member 300185]

Yeah, Messier, Anderson, Coffey, Kurri... what a brutal team to be on. But keep going on about Semenko...

Go to 333 of this video. Then come back and apologize for not knowing anything about hockey.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Go to 333 of this video. Then come back and apologize for not knowing anything about hockey.

I'm not sure what the hell you think you've proven here...

Gretzky played on stacked teams. The idea that he was somehow held back because Dave Semenko was in the lineup is ludicrous. You might want to take your own advice here because that's the worst argument I've seen on here in a while. And that's saying something.

 

[member 300185]

to all you guys that think Ovi will be better than Gretzky. Dont forget to add in the variables and games played and who he had to carry on his line for protection.

 

[The Panther]

From 79/80 to 89/90 (Gretzky's 1st 40+ goal season to his last one)

Gretzky's last 40+ goal season was in 1990-91, not 1989-90.

He should have scored 40 in 1993-94. At the moment he scored his 802nd goal to pass Howe, he had 37 goals in 73 games (pace of 42 or 43 for that full season), but I think he lost his mojo after that game. The Kings were heading into the crapper and the team owner (the main reason Gretzky had gone to L.A. in the first place) was heading to prison. He just seemed to sign off after that, and actually sat out the last three games of the season (finished with 38 goals... still won the scoring title).

As far as "the trap" goes, it isn't a late-90s' invention. It goes back to the 1920s. It was out of fashion in the post-expansion era and for much of the 80s/early-90s, but prime-Gretzky did face "the trap" of sorts at times -- for example, against Calgary in 1986. The Flames' strategy in that series was to stack the blue-line, and also to force Gretzky and Coffey up the left side of the ice rather than the right. That's a little different from the conventional "trap" (which generally forces the puck carrier up the middle), but is essentially the same thing. In that regular season, Edmonton had scored 5.33 goals per game, and against Calgary in the playoffs that dropped to 3.43 per game, largely because of this system (and The Flames' very disciplined play). As for Gretzky, he scored 5 goals and 13 points in the series, so in a sense he still did very well, but most of his real damage was limited to game four. Flames won the series accordingly.

Gretzky also faced Brodeur and the Jersey-trap in the '97 playoffs (among other times). The Rangers rather handily (and surprisingly) won that series in five games, with Gretzky leading all scorers with only 5 points. But it was a low scoring series.

*********

Getting back to the thread topic: Ovechkin is about 247 goals shy now, right? Let's say he needs 235 more after this season. He'll be 34 years old at the start of next season. As I said earlier in this thread -- I think, on about page 5 or something -- the most remarkable thing about him (besides the goal numbers) is his endurance. He's just a tank that keeps going. But he has played a rough and edgy style for years (esp. when younger), and I think at some point it catches up to you, no matter how "easy" the new NHL is, physically. He may not ever get blindsided by a crushing check anymore, but the mileage has an effect on everyone, at some point. Anyway, to score 235 more goals from age 34 is extremely difficult, no matter the era.

One of the things that will determine how high a number he racks up is how good/bad/average Washington is after this season. They're a very good team right now, with an above-average power play, and some players who have chemistry with Ovechkin. But if they were to fall off the pedestal suddenly and be stuck in the lower-scoring half of teams for the rest of his career, it gets that much harder.

I just don't think it's going to happen, but I'll the first to toast him if it does!

 

[King Mapes]

to all you guys that think Ovi will be better than Gretzky. Dont forget to add in the variables and games played and who he had to carry on his line for protection.

You're not even listening to what anyone is saying. People are talking purely goals. AO is the best goal scorer of all time, stop trying to spin what people are saying.

 

[King Mapes]

So far in this thread I have learned:

- A generation is 80 years
- Ovechkin can break the goals record but is not generational
- Brodeur kept scoring down in the 80s as did guys like Sawchuk
- If people call Ovechkin the best goalscorer ever, they're trying to claim he is better than Gretzky

My head hurts

 

[saffronleaf]

Can't wait to see Ovechkin shatter Gretzky's goal scoring record and watch all these old boomers cry.

 

[BigT2002]

Considering that goals record has long been considered untouchable, I would love to see it just to watch every one lose their minds.

 

[BallardEra]

246 away.

 

[King Mapes]

Can't wait to see Ovechkin shatter Gretzky's goal scoring record and watch all these old boomers cry.

Well he won't "shatter" it, it'll be close. Eventually he does have to slow down but the question is how much will he? It's pretty remarkable at how few games he has missed in his career.