Why is USA spitting out big talents out of sudden?

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Who said its 100% agreeable?

It's still a good barometer for this type of discussion. If they think Pedri is very valuable, maybe he's very valuable. It's objective, not subjective. I'm sure you understand that difference.

Is it made by sporting directors and agents? No, its made by randoms and its their opinion so yes its subjective. How else do you have such crazy valuations that spike after a month or two once the players gets exposure. Most of SA prospects are little known.

But you entirely miss the point.

Paredes is 26 years old. He's in his prime. No one argued the US National Team is better than the Argentine National Team right now. That argument has never been put forward. The idea is that the USA might have a better crop of younger players, which is often predictive of future success.

I cited him for a reason. I dont think he’s a good player and he’s part of the “ weaker” Argentina crop yet he’d be one of your best players of all time. That’s not to say anything about Icardi or Dybala who would be head and shoulders above any American player.

First of all, why don't you explain how they aren't on the decline? I welcome all information you could provide me with. You know Argentina's team better than I do. I'm open to changing my mind. I always am when I come to this website.

They’re producing players all over the pitch and not just winged forwards like they have been 5-10 seasons ago.

As to my opinion that Argentina's on the decline, I think the easiest way to get an idea of future success is to look at the crop of younger players. Obviously there's no Messi, and Argentina will suffer because of it. Argentina will have to recalibrate their team. It's been built around one player for 10-15 years. Once they do recalibrate how they play, I think the quality in young players is simply a little lower than they've had at their best. When I look at the historically elite countries, I think Argentina's crop of younger players is behind that of France, England, Netherlands, Brazil, to name a few.

That one player is the best of all time. So where would Kun,Masch, ADM or Higuain rank among American players?

I dont see its far off Brazil. Don’t know much about Netherlands but if one is better than the other its reasonably close. The other two are going through a golden generation. Hats off to them doesnt mean they will win anything going forward.

And if I was to analyze their crop of younger players compared to the other historically elite nations, I think they grade out towards the bottom of the list. Even a country like Spain that I think is a little weak compared to some prior generations has players such as Ansu Fati, Oyarzabal, Rodri, Eric Garcia, Unai Simon, Ferran Torres, Olmo, Pedri, Pau Torres. Maybe it's weaker than the Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Ramos generation, but it's still a crop of players that is going to be regulars for some of the top teams in the world. The same can be said with Germany. Maybe this isn't their vintage 2014 World Cup crop, but I think its quite clear that players such as Werner, Havertz, Moukoko, Wirtz, Neuhaus, Musiala, Sane are going to play for top teams in the world regularly.

Looking at Argentina's crop, outside of Lautaro, Romero, Lisandro Martinez, I'm not sure which players they have that are considered by most to be in that same category of player. I'm sure you will list off a bunch of players that you think can, but I have nothing against Argentina or any reason to rate their players lower than I should. I simply think the wider perception is that their up and coming crop is weaker.

Perez has the most potential of all the cbs. Plenty of other players to name.

Name your parameters.

Potential and luckily of reaching that.

I will deal with it. I'm not really all that bothered. I try to be as respectful as possible in all discussions on this website. I'd hope that others would do the same, and I wouldn't have someone try to group me into a group of people they don't view as holding serious opinions worthy of respect, but I guess I now know that this discussion prompts you to attack me instead of my argument.

Sure buddy, everyone is wrong but you

 

[Evilo]

Why waste your time guys?

 

[S E P H]

I appreciate the time and effort Pavel puts in his posts, even if he's wrong in the end in thinking USA is better than Argentina. The problem is that Argentina are known as chokers is because they have absurd talent and can't win anything, USA isn't even in this category because it can't even get into tournaments, let alone a Final to proceed with the ability to choke.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Is it made by sporting directors and agents? No, its made by randoms and its their opinion so yes its subjective. How else do you have such crazy valuations that spike after a month or two once the players gets exposure. Most of SA prospects are little known.

It's not made by randoms who are cooks or cashiers. It's made by people who professionally work in football a certain league or region. And you aren't going to get a precise measurement from clubs or agents either. There's no actual way to measure the quality of players in an exact way. Unless the idea is that we stop discussing this stuff because there's not an exact measurement, I don't see how an aggregator type of value website like transfermarkt isn't one of the better measures of player value.

Potential and luckily of reaching that.

Thats not very specific. That could include Messi. I'll narrow it down for you since you didn't do that yourself. How about U23? That includes all players born in or after 1998.

I'm not going to include my own opinion because that doesn't really matter. That doesn't help prove anything. I'll use an objective measurement. Transfermarkt says the 10 most valuable American U23's are these ten players.

Christian Pulisic: 55M
Giovani Reyna: 41.8M
Sergino Dest: 27.5M
Weston McKennie: 27.5M
Tyler Adams: 22M
Brenden Aaronson: 11M
Yunus Musah: 11M
Josh Sargent: 9.9M
Tim Weah: 8.25M
Bryan Reynolds: 6.6M

Total: 220.55M

They list the ten most valuable Argentine U25's as these players.

Nicolas Gonzalez: 27.5M
Lisandro Martinez: 24.2M
Thiago Almada: 22M
Exequiel Palacos: 19.8M
Cristian Romero: 16.5M
Julian Alvarez: 13.2M
Alan Velasco: 13.2M
Fausto Vera: 12.1M
Matias Zaracho: 11M
Alexis Mac Allister: 11M

Total: 170.5M

I'll preempt your disagreement.

If you change the parameters by a year and make it U24, Argentina can add Lautaro, so that changes the equation and they'd win U24 as opposed to losing U23.

But my point was never that Argentina couldn't be better. I didn't take a firm stance like you did.

You said 10 best prospects. U23 is a pretty round number for football prospects with it being the oldest age group thats allowed in official youth competitions. I took your parameter, looked at an objective source, and USA came out on top.

That doesn't mean USA will be better than Argentina eventually. Maybe they will and maybe they won't, but to dismiss it as ridiculous, like you have, when there are objective predictive measures stating that USA's up and coming generation might be better than Argentina's is what's ridiculous here.

Sure buddy, everyone is wrong but you

Whose everyone? There's one guy whose backed you extensively. I won't get into my gripes with this person, as I'm not going to go after this person like they went after me, but we disagree about a lot, to put it nicely. Besides that, whose this everyone? I see one guy who voiced his opinion that Argentina is better than USA, something that wasn't even the topic discussed here, so you have to question if he's properly read the discussion. Are you going to claim 2-3 likes you got on your post is proof everyone backs you on this discussion?

Besides, I'm well aware there's an inferiority complex with American soccer fans. There are still American fans who won't admit that the current young generation is objectively better than prior generations. I don't have that inferiority complex, and I believe objective measures and what I watch. I don't care about taking the most conservative and cautious stance. I give my opinion, and thats it. It shouldn't matter who agrees or disagrees with it. You don't defeat my argument because you claim people agree with you. That doesn't inherently discredit my argument. Discrediting my argument by explaining its wrong does that.

 

[Evilo]

Young Argentinian players are well known for being cheap compared with their talents.
So this holds absolutely zero value.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

You ignored half of what I posted. And it’s quite difficult to quote on the phone which is what I’ve been doing since yesterday.

the website is made by scouts and agents? No it’s made by some german guy. It’s nice and I use it a lot but it should be taken as any sort of measurement like the 442 prospect ranking. The players you posted aren’t even the best Argentina are putting out. Even the ones you posted such as Romero was bought by 28 million by Juve. Now he’s on loan to a Cl side one of their best players and having an immense season he’s worth 16 million all of sudden what a joke. Do you know any of the Argentinian players on the come up? Nope you don’t see instead of wasting time here go watch a game. Non dortmund.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Young Argentinian players are well known for being cheap compared with their talents.
So this holds absolutely zero value.

Thank you. Their clubs are poor and can’t afford to keep the players. Lisandro was sold for 5 million. Perez, palacios, dybala you name it. They can be had for peanuts.

 

[Evilo]

It's the same with african players. They can be bought for peanuts. Their transfermarkt value holds absolutely no meaning.

 

[Live in the Now]

Besides, I'm well aware there's an inferiority complex with American soccer fans. There are still American fans who won't admit that the current young generation is objectively better than prior generations. I don't have that inferiority complex, and I believe objective measures and what I watch. I don't care about taking the most conservative and cautious stance. I give my opinion, and thats it. It shouldn't matter who agrees or disagrees with it. You don't defeat my argument because you claim people agree with you. That doesn't inherently discredit my argument. Discrediting my argument by explaining its wrong does that.

The difference in results speaks for itself. Everyone saw the team in 2002 and what they could have done, and for that matter what they did. The US was one of the best teams at that WC. I don't want to hear about what could theoretically happen, and it's not about admitting something. They haven't won shit. End of story. It seems like you need to admit that.

It's pretty annoying to watch someone denigrate our best team to try to pump up a bunch of kids who can't beat Canada. I'm not buying it.

 

[les Habs]

It's not made by randoms who are cooks or cashiers. It's made by people who professionally work in football a certain league or region. And you aren't going to get a precise measurement from clubs or agents either. There's no actual way to measure the quality of players in an exact way. Unless the idea is that we stop discussing this stuff because there's not an exact measurement, I don't see how an aggregator type of value website like transfermarkt isn't one of the better measures of player value.



Thats not very specific. That could include Messi. I'll narrow it down for you since you didn't do that yourself. How about U23? That includes all players born in or after 1998.

I'm not going to include my own opinion because that doesn't really matter. That doesn't help prove anything. I'll use an objective measurement. Transfermarkt says the 10 most valuable American U23's are these ten players.

Christian Pulisic: 55M
Giovani Reyna: 41.8M
Sergino Dest: 27.5M
Weston McKennie: 27.5M
Tyler Adams: 22M
Brenden Aaronson: 11M
Yunus Musah: 11M
Josh Sargent: 9.9M
Tim Weah: 8.25M
Bryan Reynolds: 6.6M

Total: 220.55M

They list the ten most valuable Argentine U25's as these players.

Nicolas Gonzalez: 27.5M
Lisandro Martinez: 24.2M
Thiago Almada: 22M
Exequiel Palacos: 19.8M
Cristian Romero: 16.5M
Julian Alvarez: 13.2M
Alan Velasco: 13.2M
Fausto Vera: 12.1M
Matias Zaracho: 11M
Alexis Mac Allister: 11M

Total: 170.5M

I'll preempt your disagreement.

If you change the parameters by a year and make it U24, Argentina can add Lautaro, so that changes the equation and they'd win U24 as opposed to losing U23.

But my point was never that Argentina couldn't be better. I didn't take a firm stance like you did.

You said 10 best prospects. U23 is a pretty round number for football prospects with it being the oldest age group thats allowed in official youth competitions. I took your parameter, looked at an objective source, and USA came out on top.

That doesn't mean USA will be better than Argentina eventually. Maybe they will and maybe they won't, but to dismiss it as ridiculous, like you have, when there are objective predictive measures stating that USA's up and coming generation might be better than Argentina's is what's ridiculous here.



Whose everyone? There's one guy whose backed you extensively. I won't get into my gripes with this person, as I'm not going to go after this person like they went after me, but we disagree about a lot, to put it nicely. Besides that, whose this everyone? I see one guy who voiced his opinion that Argentina is better than USA, something that wasn't even the topic discussed here, so you have to question if he's properly read the discussion. Are you going to claim 2-3 likes you got on your post is proof everyone backs you on this discussion?

Besides, I'm well aware there's an inferiority complex with American soccer fans. There are still American fans who won't admit that the current young generation is objectively better than prior generations. I don't have that inferiority complex, and I believe objective measures and what I watch. I don't care about taking the most conservative and cautious stance. I give my opinion, and thats it. It shouldn't matter who agrees or disagrees with it. You don't defeat my argument because you claim people agree with you. That doesn't inherently discredit my argument. Discrediting my argument by explaining its wrong does that.

Pedri: 70 million
Konrad: 2.5 million

Pedri and I win.

In all seriousness though:
Fati: 80 million
Pedri: 70 million
Oyarzabal: 70 million
Ferran Torres: 50 million
Olmo: 38 million

Spain wins and it didn't take 10 years, only took 10 days.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Pedri: 70 million
Konrad: 2.5 million

Pedri and I win.

In all seriousness though:
Fati: 80 million
Pedri: 70 million
Oyarzabal: 70 million
Ferran Torres: 50 million
Olmo: 38 million

Spain wins and it didn't take 10 years, only took 10 days.

So what's your argument? I'm not sure I understand.

 

[Evilo]

I think everyone understood.

 

[The Abusement Park]

The difference in results speaks for itself. Everyone saw the team in 2002 and what they could have done, and for that matter what they did. The US was one of the best teams at that WC. I don't want to hear about what could theoretically happen, and it's not about admitting something. They haven't won shit. End of story. It seems like you need to admit that.

It's pretty annoying to watch someone denigrate our best team to try to pump up a bunch of kids who can't beat Canada. I'm not buying it.

I’m with you. What does this generation have that the previous one didn’t? I mean the 02 team lost to Germany in a QF and this generation so far has not qualified for the WC? I mean sure there’s potential but they actually have to do something.

 

[Live in the Now]

I’m with you. What does this generation have that the previous one didn’t? I mean the 02 team lost to Germany in a QF and this generation so far has not qualified for the WC? I mean sure there’s potential but they actually have to do something.

Yeah, they have to do something. That team also didn't deserve to lose that game against Germany and back then Bruce Arena was a very good coach with good tactics who knew how to keep the team disciplined and still strong going forward. I see absolutely none of that in the current group of coaches. There's really no reason for anyone to get ahead of themselves.

 

[alko]

2026 World Cup winner?

 

[The Abusement Park]

2026 World Cup winner?

Well create our own tournament in 2023 and crown ourselves world champions.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Would the average NFL or NBA player be good at soccer? I dont think so. For Football or Basketball you need a different physique as for soccer.

Average? Maybe, maybe not. But if you got some elite athletes in those sports to choose soccer at a young age, I have no doubt they would be good. Elite athletes by definition are more adaptable to a variety of sports than average/good athletes. Not saying soccer doesn't get any elite athletes, but there is just far less financial incentive for elite American athletes with professional ambitions to choose soccer.

As far as physiques are concerned, not all football and basketball players are giants. There are plenty of basketball guards, and football DBs, receivers, running backs, QBs and even a few linebackers with physiques that can translate to soccer.

 

[Rob]

I’m with you. What does this generation have that the previous one didn’t? I mean the 02 team lost to Germany in a QF and this generation so far has not qualified for the WC? I mean sure there’s potential but they actually have to do something.

I remember after reaching the 2002 QF a lot of fans expected the US to be serious title contenders within a decade.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I remember after reaching the 2002 QF a lot of fans expected the US to be serious title contenders within a decade.

And look at us now lol.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

And look at us now lol.

Just another decade.

 

[Evilo]

About players' value, it's funny because L'Equipe is writing an article about how starting XI countries rank.
1st is England
2nd is Portugal
3rd is Brazil
4th is France

Who would say that's how the countries rank right now?

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

About players' value, it's funny because L'Equipe is writing an article about how starting XI countries rank.
1st is England
2nd is Portugal
3rd is Brazil
4th is France

Who would say that's how the countries rank right now?

Truly wild stuff. Apparently bookmakers on the continent (so not just in England!) have England as favourite for Euro2021. They look strong - and a lot stronger than three years ago - but yeeeeesh.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

England being overhyped as hell just before a big competition? Never happens

 

[Chimaera]

I mean, Foden is the goods.

For what it's worth, there's a lot of good young talent on England as well, which is what's skewing the transfermarkt stuff (which I think is silly, and the Footie Manager / EA ification of the sport).

 

[Evilo]

I mean, Foden is the goods.

For what it's worth, there's a lot of good young talent on England as well, which is what's skewing the transfermarkt stuff (which I think is silly, and the Footie Manager / EA ification of the sport).

Pickford at 28M is what is skewing the values.